Question for Reformed

[bach90]

"Author of evil" isn't even a meaningful term, either. It's not really defined, except as this thing that supposedly Calvinists say God is. As such, it's so nebulous it's kind of impossible to keep from being labeled with it.

I would agree with you that it's a weird term. I guess what I am saying is, if God is sovereign, and if God is the cause of all things, and if God is the ground of all contingency, (I think most Reformed theologians would agree on these points), how is it that an objectively evil act is not evil?

We say that even though God is in control of everything, it doesn't make him evil.

Romans 9 answers this.

Romans 9:19-21
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

This shows that man is still the one who is culpable even though no man can resist God's (decretive) will.

Since we all know that man cannot resist God's will, yet God is still good, Calvinism's logical implications cannot be that God is evil (if this is what "author of evil" means).

However, if "author of evil" means that he causes good and evil and has good purposes for the evil (as in the case of Joseph and his brothers), then guilty as charged. We do paint Him in that light and proudly so. After all, a God who is not in control of evil can have no purpose for it.

It's difficult, for me, to follow this line of reasoning. If God were to perform an objectively evil act, how would he not be evil. I believe God is all good, without any evil. I would allow the view that God uses evil to his good, certainly. I would allow the view that man is depraved, therefore evil, therefore any good is attributed to God and any evil to man. I would even allow the view that God allows evil to happen. It's difficult for me to allow the view that God is the cause of an evil action.

FYI - The Westminster Confession states the following:

CHAPTER III.

Of God's Eternal Decree.

I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

See here for chapter 3 of the confession and click on the bracketed numbers for scripture references.

Thank you for the reference, I will give it a look.


The reason I'm asking is that there are some points of Reformed theology that make alot of sense to me. The Limited atonement for example answers the argument if God died for all sin, how come people who sin (the sin of unbelief) go to hell? Also it seems that if God necessarily predestines someone to salvation, logically, he would necessarily preserve them to the end. I also don't see the contradiction of preaching the Gospel to all is a contradiction to the limited atonement. By way of analogy, Cadillac advertises to all people while knowing full well that some people that see the ad can't by an SLX.


What keeps me from being Reformed outright would be the issue at hand, and (a completely different discussion) the Sacraments. I can understand a predestination to heaven, the inverse is very difficult for me to believe. I can understand God causing good, God causing evil is a difficult idea for me.

 

[JM]

I would agree with you that it's a weird term. I guess what I am saying is, if God is sovereign, and if God is the cause of all things, and if God is the ground of all contingency, (I think most Reformed theologians would agree on these points), how is it that an objectively evil act is not evil?

I posted a long quote from Zanchius that deals with your question. A small portion, "Although there is no action whatever which is not in some sense either good or bad, yet we can easily conceive of an action, purely as such, without adverting to the quality of it, so that the distinction between an action itself and its denomination of good or evil is very obvious and natural."

His work on the subject is really helpful.

jm

 

[bach90]

I posted a long quote from Zanchius that deals with your question. A small portion, "Although there is no action whatever which is not in some sense either good or bad, yet we can easily conceive of an action, purely as such, without adverting to the quality of it, so that the distinction between an action itself and its denomination of good or evil is very obvious and natural."

His work on the subject is really helpful.

jm

I must have missed it; I'll go back and look. Thanks.

 

[christ disciple]

Hey guys what if I told you He was the blameless author of Evil?


Isaiah 45:7
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
7 The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the Lord who does all these.

Isaiah 45:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

For the one who is quibbling over semantics. May I ask you, What are the resulting works of Evil?

Are they not calamity and disaster, as well a a host of other negative outcomes?
God is Perfect, is He not?
Are we perfect?
How are we sustained?
What happens in God withdraws His hand?
What would be the natural consequences of God removing his hand from us?
Is He Evil for removing His hand?
What does this reveal to us concerning our abiltiy to be good apart from Him?
Would there not be chaos and imperfection resulting in Evil being formed?
Why can God never be Evil then?
Yet we are able to become Evil, Why?
? Evil is a result of what? Privation or negation?
So, Are we not commanded to be prefect as He is perfect?
Is this possible without Him.
If not, then will our imperfection not result in sin and evil?
Does God need to defend Himself concerning this matter?
Do not His actions speak for themselves and convey His character?
Evil is the natural result of God removing His hand from our lives and allowing us the see what the results would be, but He is not Evill Himself for doing such is He?
Can not the potter do as He wishes with the clay?

Therefore, would He not be the Blameless Author of Evil?

What happens when He chooses the grant Grace and bring order out of chaos?

Who receives the Glory?

The question you have to ask yourself is? Do you trust the Potter to Be and Do as He says?

 

[bsd058]

Hey guys what if I told you He was the blameless author of Evil?


Isaiah 45:7
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
7 The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the Lord who does all these.

Isaiah 45:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

For the one who is quibbling over semantics. May I ask you, What are the resulting works of Evil?

Are they not calamity and disaster, as well a a host of other negative outcomes?
God is Perfect, is He not?
Are we perfect?
How are we sustained?
What happens in God withdraws His hand?
What would be the natural consequences of God removing his hand from us?
Is He Evil for removing His hand?
What does this reveal to us concerning our abiltiy to be good apart from Him?
Would there not be chaos and imperfection resulting in Evil being formed?
Why can God never be Evil then?
Yet we are able to become Evil, Why?
? Evil is a result of what? Privation or negation?
So, Are we not commanded to be prefect as He is perfect?
Is this possible without Him.
If not, then will our imperfection not result in sin and evil?
Does God need to defend Himself concerning this matter?
Do not His actions speak for themselves and convey His character?
Evil is the natural result of God removing His hand from our lives and allowing us the see what the results would be, but He is not Evill Himself for doing such is He?
Can not the potter do as He wishes with the clay?

Therefore, would He not be the Blameless Author of Evil?

What happens when He chooses the grant Grace and bring order out of chaos?

Who receives the Glory?

The question you have to ask yourself is? Do you trust the Potter to Be and Do as He says?

Evil is what is contrary to His nature.

He cannot actually be the author of evil (in the moral sense) or originator of it (originator would be how I would view the term author). Only in the sense that He decrees everything that happens. Evil is generated from the hearts of men.

I understand the Thomistic understanding of evil is merely the absence of good (which God is), such as darkness is the absence of light, but I do not believe that this description of evil is found in Scripture. Evil actually exists in the hearts of men. Yes, these evil actions occur in God's created universe and continue to occur by His decree. But James makes it clear that God does not tempt us (James 1:13) and that "each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death." (James 1:14-15)

Therefore, I think it stands to reason that God decrees (when evil happens) that the person who commits evil actually produce it in and of their own wicked desires and the origination of that evil is them, not God.

However, if you assert that author merely means that God decrees every action in history, including evil, then in that sense, I would agree that he is the blameless author of evil.

In the first sense I spoke of, though, I would disagree. He is not the originator of moral evil.

 

[JM]

Author does not mean guilty of...and I don't buy Augustine's 'moral hole' theory either.

 

[abacabb]

Author does not mean guilty of...and I don't buy Augustine's 'moral hole' theory either.

It just seems simpler to say God let's bad stuff happen, but we have faith that He has a good reason. I don't see why people get so hung up about it.

 

[JM]

Consider Joseph being sold into slavery compounded by the lies his brothers told, scripture reads, "you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good" Gen. 50.20 One sinful situation with mans actions being evil but God's actions were good. The text reads, "but God meant it"

God had a purpose in sin and that is to glorify Himself.

 

[bsd058]

Consider Joseph being sold into slavery compounded by the lies his brothers told, scripture reads, "you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good" Gen. 50.20 One sinful situation with mans actions being evil but God's actions were good. The text reads, "but God meant it"

God had a purpose in sin and that is to glorify Himself.

 

[abacabb]

 

[JM]

The AV is a little more powerful, "ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good..." Joseph's brothers thought they were getting away with evil but, in fact, they were doing God's will for good. What was that good? "to save much people alive." The purpose was to save national Israel.

 

[christ disciple]

Evil is what is contrary to His nature.

He cannot actually be the author of evil (in the moral sense) or originator of it (originator would be how I would view the term author). Only in the sense that He decrees everything that happens. Evil is generated from the hearts of men.

I understand the Thomistic understanding of evil is merely the absence of good (which God is), such as darkness is the absence of light, but I do not believe that this description of evil is found in Scripture. Evil actually exists in the hearts of men. Yes, these evil actions occur in God's created universe and continue to occur by His decree. But James makes it clear that God does not tempt us (James 1:13) and that "each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death." (James 1:14-15)

Therefore, I think it stands to reason that God decrees (when evil happens) that the person who commits evil actually produce it in and of their own wicked desires and the origination of that evil is them, not God.

However, if you assert that author merely means that God decrees every action in history, including evil, then in that sense, I would agree that he is the blameless author of evil.

In the first sense I spoke of, though, I would disagree. He is not the originator of moral evil.

1) True, evil is generated in the hearts of men. This is a result of God’s removing His hand and allowing man to choose. Apart from Him, man can only do evil and commit sin and they are completely responsible for their actions apart from God.

2) Yes, He decrees all matters including evil, but He himself is not and cannot tempt with evil as James affirms. Don’t worry I believe in every sense that man is responsible for his sin. We must Respond-to His- Ability and apart from Him we can do nothing (but evil),


3) Evil comes about by negation. This is accomplished by God’s removing His hand which allows man to make choices which when they are made apart from God’s enablement will only produce sin and evil. This would be a passive approach to creating evil seeing that evil is a result of God’s not upholding us in all things which reveals to us, or at least it should, that without Him we can do nothing and are doomed.
Is it wrong or evil for Him to allow things to fall apart?
Who is able to put it all back together?
Does this not bring him Glory?
Tell me, who is responsible for man's doing good?

 

[christ disciple]

It just seems simpler to say God let's bad stuff happen, but we have faith that He has a good reason. I don't see why people get so hung up about it.

You would be correct in saying so.

By allowing something to occur, has He not determined it beforehand and are not His purposes for good?

There is no evil within God even though He uses evil to bring about His purposes which are good. Not so with mankind.

 

[abacabb]

You would be correct in saying so.

By allowing something to occur, has He not determined it beforehand and are not His purposes for good?

There is no evil within God even though He uses evil to bring about His purposes which are good. Not so with mankind.

 

[twin1954]

Psa 76:10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.

 

[JM]

Psa 76:10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Hi all,

I've been trying to get an answer from a Reformed perspective on this issue, but most of the answers I find online tend to be from somebody who already has a hostile attitude to Reformed theology, so I wanted to get the "straight dope" as it were.

How would a Reformed Christian answer the objection that Reformed theology, especially with it's emphasis on the Sovereignty of God, makes God the author of evil?

Obviously that's a huge question. Maybe if someone wanted to give me a basic answer and then point out where I can find a more detailed response (perhaps in the WC?)

I've been thinking about how to respond to this one (you're right it is a huge question), even though it's a common objection and the answers have to be repeated over and over ad infintum.

I've been thinking about this in terms of a "problem" for ALL Christians, not just Calvinists, and thought of a couple of issues. Let me try to lay them out.

To preface, one related objection which non-believers attempt (and fail) to rub in Christians faces is the "problem of evil" (which ends up proving God exists, via moral argument). Often one of the preliminary tasks in formal debate becomes defining what "evil" is. The problem I have in mind is related. Here in question format

Does the concept of evil pre-date even God? No.

Therefore the concept of evil originates with God, or else God is not eternal and evil came before Him, but that is neither Christian nor Biblical. So we must conclude that the abstract idea of evil itself, has it's origin with God, as mind boggling as it may be.

Does God know and have knowledge of all the evils beforehand, before they occur, etc.? Yes.

God has all knowledge of good and evil in concept, conception, origin, in actuality through secondary causes events, etc, and further eternal immutable knowledge from all eternity.