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Question for preterists........
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Roadie, Thank you for your thoughtful post. I understand that this issue is an emotional one to you. I respectfully disagree with just about everything you said however and here's why.:
I would defer to, and agree with Gary Demar's following comments on the issue:
In the premillennial view of Bible prophecy, the events depicted in Zechariah 14 are most often interpreted as depicting the second coming of Christ when Jesus will descend from heaven and stand on the Mount of Olives and from there set up His millennial kingdom. The chronology outlined in Zechariah, however, does not fit this scenario. Events actually begin in chapter thirteen where it is prophesied that the Shepherd, Jesus, will be struck and the sheep will be scattered (Zech. 13:7). This was fulfilled when Jesus says, "'You will all fall away, because it is written, "I [size=-1]WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP SHALL BE SCATTERED[/size]"'" (Mark 14:27).
What follows describes events leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. God will act as Judge of Jerusalem and its inhabitants. As the king, He will send "his armies" and destroy "those murderers, and set their city on fire" (Matt. 22:7).
For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered [Matt. 24:17], the women ravished [Luke 17:35], and half the city exiled [Matt. 24:16], but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city" (Zech. 14:2).
This happened when the Roman armies leading a MULTI-NATIONAL COALITION, made up of soldiers from all the nations it conquered, went to war against Jerusalem. Rome was an empire consisting of all the known nations of the world (see Luke 2:1). The Roman Empire "extended roughly two thousand miles from Scotland south to the headwaters of the Nile and about three thousand miles from the Pillars of Hercules eastward to the sands of Persia. Its citizens and subject peoples numbered perhaps eighty million."1 Rome was raised up, like Assyria, to be the "rod of [His] anger" (Isa. 10:5). "So completely shall the city be taken that the enemy shall sit down in the midst of her to divide the spoil. All nations (2), generally speaking were represented in the invading army, for Rome was the mistress of many lands."2 Thomas Scott, using supporting references from older commentators and cross references to other biblical books, writes that Zechariah is describing the events surrounding Jerusalem's destruction in A.D. 70.
The time when the Romans marched their armies, composed of many nations, to besiege Jerusalem, was "the day of the Lord" Jesus, on which he came to "destroy those that would not that he should reign over them" [Matt. 22:1­10; 24:3, 23­35; Luke 19:11­27, 41­44]. When the Romans had taken the city, all the outrages were committed, and the miseries endured, which are here predicted [Luke 21:20­24]. A very large proportion of the inhabitants were destroyed, or taken captives, and sold for slaves; and multitudes were driven away to be pursued by various perils and miseries: numbers also, having been converted to Christianity, became citizens of "the heavenly Jerusalem" and thus were "not cut off from the city" of God [Gal 4:21­31; Heb. 12:22­25].3
Forcing these series of descriptive judgment to leap over the historical realities of Jerusalem's destruction in A.D. 70 so as to fit a future judgment scenario is contrived and unnecessary.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south (Zech. 14:4).
It is this passage that dispensationalists use to support their view that Jesus will touch down on planet earth and set up His millennial kingdom. Numerous times in the Bible we read of Jehovah "coming down" to meet with His people. In most instances His coming is one of judgment; in no case was He physically present. Notice how many times God's coming is associated with mountains.
"And the L[size=-1]ORD[/size] came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. . . . Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech" (Gen. 11:5, 7).
"So I have come down to deliver them from the power of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from that land to a good and spacious land, to a land flowing with milk and honey. . . (Ex. 3:8).
"Then Thou didst come down on Mount Sinai, and didst speak with them from heaven. . . (Neh. 9:13a).
"Bow Thy heavens, O L[size=-1]ORD[/size], and come down; touch the mountains, that they may smoke" (Psalm 144:5).
"For thus says the L[size=-1]ORD[/size] to me, 'As the lion or the young lion growls over his prey, against which a band of shepherds is called out, will not be terrified at their voice, nor disturbed at their noise, so will the L[size=-1]ORD[/size] of hosts come down to wage war on Mount Zion and on its hill'" (Isa. 31:4).
"Oh, that Thou wouldst rend the heavens and come down, that the mountains might quake at Thy presence­" (Isa. 64:1).
"When Thou didst awesome things which we did not expect, Thou didst come down, the mountains quaked at Thy presence" (Isa. 64:3).
How is this descriptive language different from the Lord standing on the Mount of Olives with the result that it will split? Micah says "the mountains will melt under Him, and the valleys will be split, like wax before the fire, like water poured down a steep place" (1:4). "It was not uncommon for prophets to use figurative expressions about the Lord 'coming' down, mountains trembling, being scattered, and hills bowing (Hab. 3:6, 10); mountains flowing down at his presence (Isaiah 64:1, 3); or mountains and hills singing and the trees clapping their hands (Isaiah 55:12)."6What is the Bible trying to teach us with this descriptive language of the Mount of Olives "split in its middle"? The earliest Christian writers applied Zechariah 14:4 to the work of Christ in His day. Tertullian (A.D. 145­220) wrote: "'But at night He went out to the Mount of Olives.' For thus had Zechariah pointed out: 'And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives' [Zech. xiv. 4]."7 Tertullian was alluding to the fact that the Olivet prophecy set the stage for the judgment-coming of Christ that would once for all break down the Jewish/Gentile division. Matthew Henry explains the theology behind the prophecy:
See this Link for an extensive analysis of the evidence:
http://www.preteristvision.org/questions/qa_revelationdate.html
According to the Bible, while all those events were indeed future events to the writers 2000 years ago, nothing in scripture claims they are still future events to us, indeed, scripture testifies exactly the opposite, that all Revelation's events were ordained By GOD to take place shortly after John was Given the vision, for the time for their fulfillment 2000 years ago, was then at hand.(Rev 1:1-3)
If they did not occur SHORTLY thereafter, then John is rendered a false prophet and is not to be believed per Deuteronomy 18.
Nothing about any 7 year tribulation anywhere in Revelation, or anywhere in scripture for that matter.
1Peter 2:9-10
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Seems St Peter didn't share your opinion, since he calls the Church THE PEOPLE OF GOD. not "one of the peoples of God", but THE PEOPLE OF GOD.
The Church didn't replace Israel, rather Israel's believing remnant, with gentiles grafted in, are the one and only people of God on earth.
(except the one world government part is indeed prophesied in Isaiah 9:7:
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.)
First off, you start with an unrpoven presumption that Zechariah 14:4 speaks about Christ PHYSICALLY RETURNING to earth. I can assure you, Zechariah 14:4 makes no such reference, rather it appears that your previously held bias causes you to conclude it does.roadie432002 said:
With only a pedestrian knowledge of the Biblical use of apocalyptic language we find in this passage (Mountain split in two), and by comparing scripture with scripture, we can confidently arrive at the conclusion that Zechariah 14:4 was fulfilled in Christ's first advent, as is understood by the majority of Scholars throughout the history of Christendom.
I would defer to, and agree with Gary Demar's following comments on the issue:
In the premillennial view of Bible prophecy, the events depicted in Zechariah 14 are most often interpreted as depicting the second coming of Christ when Jesus will descend from heaven and stand on the Mount of Olives and from there set up His millennial kingdom. The chronology outlined in Zechariah, however, does not fit this scenario. Events actually begin in chapter thirteen where it is prophesied that the Shepherd, Jesus, will be struck and the sheep will be scattered (Zech. 13:7). This was fulfilled when Jesus says, "'You will all fall away, because it is written, "I [size=-1]WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP SHALL BE SCATTERED[/size]"'" (Mark 14:27).
What follows describes events leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. God will act as Judge of Jerusalem and its inhabitants. As the king, He will send "his armies" and destroy "those murderers, and set their city on fire" (Matt. 22:7).
For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered [Matt. 24:17], the women ravished [Luke 17:35], and half the city exiled [Matt. 24:16], but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city" (Zech. 14:2).
This happened when the Roman armies leading a MULTI-NATIONAL COALITION, made up of soldiers from all the nations it conquered, went to war against Jerusalem. Rome was an empire consisting of all the known nations of the world (see Luke 2:1). The Roman Empire "extended roughly two thousand miles from Scotland south to the headwaters of the Nile and about three thousand miles from the Pillars of Hercules eastward to the sands of Persia. Its citizens and subject peoples numbered perhaps eighty million."1 Rome was raised up, like Assyria, to be the "rod of [His] anger" (Isa. 10:5). "So completely shall the city be taken that the enemy shall sit down in the midst of her to divide the spoil. All nations (2), generally speaking were represented in the invading army, for Rome was the mistress of many lands."2 Thomas Scott, using supporting references from older commentators and cross references to other biblical books, writes that Zechariah is describing the events surrounding Jerusalem's destruction in A.D. 70.
The time when the Romans marched their armies, composed of many nations, to besiege Jerusalem, was "the day of the Lord" Jesus, on which he came to "destroy those that would not that he should reign over them" [Matt. 22:1­10; 24:3, 23­35; Luke 19:11­27, 41­44]. When the Romans had taken the city, all the outrages were committed, and the miseries endured, which are here predicted [Luke 21:20­24]. A very large proportion of the inhabitants were destroyed, or taken captives, and sold for slaves; and multitudes were driven away to be pursued by various perils and miseries: numbers also, having been converted to Christianity, became citizens of "the heavenly Jerusalem" and thus were "not cut off from the city" of God [Gal 4:21­31; Heb. 12:22­25].3
Forcing these series of descriptive judgment to leap over the historical realities of Jerusalem's destruction in A.D. 70 so as to fit a future judgment scenario is contrived and unnecessary.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south (Zech. 14:4).
It is this passage that dispensationalists use to support their view that Jesus will touch down on planet earth and set up His millennial kingdom. Numerous times in the Bible we read of Jehovah "coming down" to meet with His people. In most instances His coming is one of judgment; in no case was He physically present. Notice how many times God's coming is associated with mountains.
"And the L[size=-1]ORD[/size] came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. . . . Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech" (Gen. 11:5, 7).
"So I have come down to deliver them from the power of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from that land to a good and spacious land, to a land flowing with milk and honey. . . (Ex. 3:8).
"Then Thou didst come down on Mount Sinai, and didst speak with them from heaven. . . (Neh. 9:13a).
"Bow Thy heavens, O L[size=-1]ORD[/size], and come down; touch the mountains, that they may smoke" (Psalm 144:5).
"For thus says the L[size=-1]ORD[/size] to me, 'As the lion or the young lion growls over his prey, against which a band of shepherds is called out, will not be terrified at their voice, nor disturbed at their noise, so will the L[size=-1]ORD[/size] of hosts come down to wage war on Mount Zion and on its hill'" (Isa. 31:4).
"Oh, that Thou wouldst rend the heavens and come down, that the mountains might quake at Thy presence­" (Isa. 64:1).
"When Thou didst awesome things which we did not expect, Thou didst come down, the mountains quaked at Thy presence" (Isa. 64:3).
How is this descriptive language different from the Lord standing on the Mount of Olives with the result that it will split? Micah says "the mountains will melt under Him, and the valleys will be split, like wax before the fire, like water poured down a steep place" (1:4). "It was not uncommon for prophets to use figurative expressions about the Lord 'coming' down, mountains trembling, being scattered, and hills bowing (Hab. 3:6, 10); mountains flowing down at his presence (Isaiah 64:1, 3); or mountains and hills singing and the trees clapping their hands (Isaiah 55:12)."6What is the Bible trying to teach us with this descriptive language of the Mount of Olives "split in its middle"? The earliest Christian writers applied Zechariah 14:4 to the work of Christ in His day. Tertullian (A.D. 145­220) wrote: "'But at night He went out to the Mount of Olives.' For thus had Zechariah pointed out: 'And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives' [Zech. xiv. 4]."7 Tertullian was alluding to the fact that the Olivet prophecy set the stage for the judgment-coming of Christ that would once for all break down the Jewish/Gentile division. Matthew Henry explains the theology behind the prophecy:
The partition-wall between Jew and Gentiles shall be taken away. The mountains about Jerusalem, and particularly this, signified it to be an enclosure, and that it stood in the way of those who would approach to it. Between the Gentiles and Jerusalem this mountain of Bether, of division, stood, Cant. ii. 17. But by the destruction of Jerusalem this mountain shall be made to cleave in the midst, and so the Jewish pale shall be taken down, and the church laid in common with the Gentiles, who were made one with the Jews by the breaking down of this middle wall of partition, Eph. ii. 14.8
The book of Revelation was written by St. John between AD 66-68, in the final years of the Neronic persecution.
See this Link for an extensive analysis of the evidence:
http://www.preteristvision.org/questions/qa_revelationdate.html
Incorrect. Once again your presuppositions are apparently governing your interpratatuion of scripture.
According to the Bible, while all those events were indeed future events to the writers 2000 years ago, nothing in scripture claims they are still future events to us, indeed, scripture testifies exactly the opposite, that all Revelation's events were ordained By GOD to take place shortly after John was Given the vision, for the time for their fulfillment 2000 years ago, was then at hand.(Rev 1:1-3)
If they did not occur SHORTLY thereafter, then John is rendered a false prophet and is not to be believed per Deuteronomy 18.
I just read and re read Revelation 13 and can't find Antichrist mentioned anywhere.
Again with the unproven assumptions about supposed future to us events!
Nothing about any 7 year tribulation anywhere in Revelation, or anywhere in scripture for that matter.
You spiritualize plenty in the Book yourself, so obviously you feel exempt from that warning, but for some reason still see fit to demand the rest of us comply.
The Church, which is made up of Jesus and his JEWISH FOLLOWERS, with Gentiles grafted in is the believing remnant of Israel, indeed is the true Israel, the one and only people of God.
1Peter 2:9-10
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Seems St Peter didn't share your opinion, since he calls the Church THE PEOPLE OF GOD. not "one of the peoples of God", but THE PEOPLE OF GOD.
The Church didn't replace Israel, rather Israel's believing remnant, with gentiles grafted in, are the one and only people of God on earth.
None of this is prophesied in scripture however, so I fail to see your point.
(except the one world government part is indeed prophesied in Isaiah 9:7:
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.)
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stauron
Only dust on the outside
P70 is very handily answering the other points of your post. I will just step in with a couple of words here. I also disagree with almost every part of your post, hopefully we can still have cordial, Christian dialogue.roadie432002 said:
First, there is a thread about Romans 11 that you should visit and post these comments to. We are talking about the so called "replacement" charge. But in brief, God rejected the Jews so the Gentiles could be saved. Read Romans 11:15. Remember, the first born-again Christians gladly took Christ and counted all the earthly 'blessings' as dung in the same way Paul did.
Second, even Abraham lived in the promised land as a foreigner. Why? He knew that the dirt in palestine that all those unsaved, unrepentant, stiff-necked rebels are fighting over was not the goal to which he was pressing. With eyes of faith he looked for Christ, I am sure he is not dissapointed with the deal.
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