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Question for preterists........

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Ephron

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I understand where preterists are coming from biblically, but find it hard to believe that the Early Church Fathers could be so wrong concerning the Parousia of Christ, especially since it was the Roman Catholic Church that gave us the bible that we know and use today, which wasn't even widely printed until the 1500's. My question is, how do you explain so many people, for 2000 years, being so wrong concerning the 2nd Coming and how could the ECF's and the RCC miss it?

Just something weighing on my mind.

Peace.
 

Miles Peterson

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Ephron said:
I understand where preterists are coming from biblically, but find it hard to believe that the Early Church Fathers could be so wrong concerning the Parousia of Christ, especially since it was the Roman Catholic Church that gave us the bible that we know and use today, which wasn't even widely printed until the 1500's. My question is, how do you explain so many people, for 2000 years, being so wrong concerning the 2nd Coming and how could the ECF's and the RCC miss it?

Just something weighing on my mind.

Peace.
Would you include partial preterism in this question, as well?


I also think you need to substantiate your "the RCC gave us the Bible" statement. It prejudices your case. Who do you think wrote the books to begin with?
 
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Ephron

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Miles Peterson said:
Would you include partial preterism in this question, as well?


I also think you need to substantiate your "the RCC gave us the Bible" statement. It prejudices your case. Who do you think wrote the books to begin with?


I meant that, was it not the Catholic Church that canonized and translated the New Testament? Also, my question is aimed at full preterism.

Peace.
 
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parousia70

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Ephron said:
I understand where preterists are coming from biblically, but find it hard to believe that the Early Church Fathers could be so wrong concerning the Parousia of Christ, especially since it was the Roman Catholic Church that gave us the bible that we know and use today, which wasn't even widely printed until the 1500's. My question is, how do you explain so many people, for 2000 years, being so wrong concerning the 2nd Coming and how could the ECF's and the RCC miss it?

Just something weighing on my mind.

Peace.
Hya Ephron!



The very first disciples of the apostles themselves had many misunderstandings. We read about their misguided notions and misbehavior in every letter in our New Testament. They did not have the same level of inspiration as the apostles, so, why should we expect any more from later generations? Furthermore, St. Peter even acknowledged that some of Paul's views were complex. While the deposit of faith was once for all delivered to humankind by the apostles, the understanding of that revelation is progressive over time for the Church. In Catholic theology, this reality is called the "development of doctrine." The Truth was deposited once--but the full understanding has been progressive. I can abide with the need for the "development of doctrine" and certain limited understanding in the flocks of God down the centuries. I cannot, however, abide errors in the dogmatic teachings of the apostles and Christ. If the foundation is uneven and cracked, the whole house is doomed.



Also, we know that many ECFs recognized major and Divine significance in the fall of Jerusalem, even if their own eschatology was uneven, inconsistent, and disparate. There was wide diversity in the level of "realization" of eschatology. The Corinthians appear to have been "fully realized," yet too early. The varied "gnostic" christians appear to have held to a "realized" sense, but unfortunately had their own errors. There are various levels of realization in today's popular eschatologies. Dispys are almost "zero realization," and prets are "full realization" and with perpetual Kingdom expanse/dominion. Amil is "mostly realization." And so on.



There were, in fact, wide-ranging levels of realization represented within the first 300 years. Also, there was no consensus at all on eschatology. And remember, it took centuries to hammer out Christology, and that was the primary occupation of the ECFs. In fact, it can be shown that all Church dogma has come about when the NEED to deal with a controversy presented itself. Finally, there has never been a Church council dedicated to unifying the teaching of eschatology. I believe there will be someday.



Does that Help?
 
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parousia70

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Ephron,

You may also find this helpful:



After all the disciples and the early church died, off and took their
original Jewish understanding of the "parousia" with them. The church
became mostly fill with Greek-Gentiles who brought a lot of pagan background
and understanding to the church with them. We have to remember after the
Jewish saints in the early church physical died off there were only a few
saints to draw on. (For some strange reason) after (A.D. 70) the church
went to great lengths to divorce itself from any Jewish roots and
connections. Unfortunately this included their original understanding of the
parousia.

So it made a significant impact on the Gentiles understanding of these
things. So in the middle of the second century church fathers like
(Shepherd of Hermas, Justin Martyr and other) postulated the "postponed
second advent (parousia)" idea. It didn't come from the Old Testament. A
vital point, they totally ignored is that Old Testament prophecy never
implied two coming divided be centuries ( see Isaiah 34:8, 35:4-6, 40:10-11,
61:1-2 62:11, 63:1-6, 66:6-16, Zech 14, and Mal. 4:16 etc. The language used
closely connects the coming of the Lord with both (salvation and vengeance)
"judgment."

The only thing in the New Testament which even comes close to teaching a
"second advent" is Hebrews 9:28, where it says Christ will "appear a second
time." This was using the symbolism of the High Priest at Yom Kippur when
he took the blood into the holy place and then reappeared back outside the
Temple to announce that atonement had been accomplished.

The early church understood this to be simply a reappearance during His
"one-and-only advent to consummated his kingdom. Not an entirely different
advent after a long indefinite period. However the saints who lived in the
middle of the second century when they saw the remaining prophecies
associated with Christ's parousia did not occur in the physical-literal way
they assumed they had not been fulfilled at all.

So they began adjusting their concept of the TIME of fulfillment, instead of
considering the possibility that their concepts of the NATURE of fulfillment
were the only things needing adjustment. This thinking is where the
mistake was made, and it has affected Christianity ever since.

Unfortunately it occurred before the creeds were developed, so this
misunderstanding was incorporated into them, as well. Many (but not all )
assumed that a physical body is the subject of N.T. resurrection texts, just
like the Jews assumed their physical temple, nation and land were the
subjects of all O.T. restoration prophecies. They assumed to much physical
and literal concepts.

Like the unbelieving Jews of Jesus's day who liberalized the "kingdom of
God" they liberalized the rest of the fulfillment associated with Christ
parousia, Justin Martyr, Shepherd of Hermas and 2 Clement seem to be
credited with changing thing because doubts about imminence were beginning
to ooze into their minds. The thought never seems to occur to them that
their concept of the NATURE of fulfillment was the problem instead of the
TIME of fulfillment. Rather than shift to a spiritual nature of
fulfillment, they instead tampered with the time statements.


Now Listen to these suggestions by Kurt Aland....we discover a decisive
turning point in the second half of the second century a watershed decisive
for the development of the Christian church. It was the definite conviction
not only of Paul, but of all Christians of that time, that they themselves
would experience the return of the Lord;

The Apocalypse expresses the fervent waiting for the end withing the circles
in which the writer lived-not an expectation that will happen at some
unknown point x in time, but one in the immediate present. If we browse
through the writings of that period we observe that this expectation of the
end continued. In fact, we also find ti the writing of the first half of
the second century sufficient evidence to indicate that the expectation of
the Parousia was by no means at an end then.

At the end of the Didache ("the teaching of the twelve apostles"), from the
time shortly after 100, there is, for example, an apocalyptic chapter which
corresponds completely in its outline to the Synoptic apocalypse in Mark 13
(and the parallel chapters in the other Synoptic Gospels.); here we can only
very cautiously say that it used the same words, but that its content is
imperceptibly in the process of change. It quite similar to the Epistle of
Barnabas which was written a little later that the Didache, where we read:
(The day is near in which everything will perish together with the evil.
The Lord ans his recompense are near).

Again and again the old expressions echo. They echo apparently almost
unchanged, but ("doubt about the imminence of the Lord's return is
increasingly mixed with them until around the middle of the second century
when the Shepherd of Hermas thinks he has found a solution and expresses it
with great thoroughness and emphaisi: the Parousia-the Lord's return-has
been postponed for the sake of Christians them selves. The building of the
tower has not been stopped,) it is only temporarily suspended. Therefore
and this is the warning of the Shepherd of Hermas, on account of which the
entire work was really written do good works for your purification, for if
you delay too long, the construction of the tower may be finished and you
will not be included as stones built into it.

The thought of a postponement of the Parousia appears all through 2 Clement
but here it is expressly mentioned for the first time. Thus, about the
middle of the second century, a decisive turning point occurs one which can
be compared in significance to all other great turning points, including the
Reformation. Obviously, we cannot fix this turning point precisely at the
year 150, for it took a while until the though caught hold everywhere. But
a development does begin with the Shepherd of Hermas which could not be
stopped-a development at the end of which we stand today. As soon as the
thought of a postponement of the Parousia was uttered once and indeed not
only incidentally, but thoroughly presented in an entire writing-it
developed its (own life and power).

At first, people looked at it as only a brief postponement, as the Shepherd
of Hermas clearly expresses. But soon, as the end of the world did not
occur, it was conceived of as a longer and longer period, until finally-this
is today's situation nothing but the thought of a postponement exists in
people's consciousness. (Kurt Aland. A History of Christianity. (2 vols.)
Fortress Press: 1985. Vol. 1,pp.89-102


These are pretty powerful statements, and they're coming from someone who
knows a "decisive turning point" when he sees one. It is time students of
Scripture exhaustively examined eschatology, using all the alliable
information that has accumulated since the first century, but reserving all
judgment to Scripture alone.


God Bless,
P70
 
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conpret

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parousia70,

Great response to Ephron, I had not heard the explanation by Aland about the beginnings of the delayed parousia theory. I knew it began about that time but wasn't sure who started it.

I just joined this forum today even though I have been aware of it for a while. My good friend stauron suggested I check it out. Its great to hear so many great preterist testimonies, and see so much wisdom displayed in their posts, especially yours. Thanks for your contributions. I look forward to visiting often and learning more about the preterist understanding of God's word.
 
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parousia70

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conpret said:
parousia70,

Great response to Ephron, I had not heard the explanation by Aland about the beginnings of the delayed parousia theory. I knew it began about that time but wasn't sure who started it.

I just joined this forum today even though I have been aware of it for a while. My good friend stauron suggested I check it out. Its great to hear so many great preterist testimonies, and see so much wisdom displayed in their posts, especially yours. Thanks for your contributions. I look forward to visiting often and learning more about the preterist understanding of God's word.
Welcome conpret!

Glad to have you aboard. we can use the fresh blood!

ephron is a good egg! he gets it, and He is asking all the right questions with the right tenor of a berean, seeking the scriptures to "see if these things are so"..... plenty of folks here could stand to adopt a page or two from his approach........... haven't seen him around here lately though.........

I am humbled by your kind words..... I have been a full pret for going on 5 years now, and have had plenty of encouragement along the way from far more learned individuals than I.

I learn something new on this board every day as a matter of fact!

I look forward to your additions to the discussion!

God bless,
P70
 
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stauron

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p70 is a good egg too!

Good points about the early church fathers.

On the other side of the coin would a survey of contemporary theology prove anything? Just take a statistical sample of "christian" doctrine today and bundle it up in a few manuscripts or even in a couple of books on theology today.

Then jump down the road 100 or 200 years. Would that be a good picture of what the church believes? Would it prove truth? It has never made much sense to me to count noses. People aren't willing to do it today in most areas, so why do we use it anywhere?
 
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Ephron

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Hey Parousia70. Your posts, as usual, are excellent and thought provoking. It is amazing to me that of all the books the RCC could have canonized for the New Testament, they chose the ones that actually strengthen the full preterist view. Seems to me that if the early church believed in a delayed 2nd coming, they could have canonized books that would reflect that view. Why didn't they? hmmm.


Peace
Ephron
 
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parousia70

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Ephron said:
It is amazing to me that of all the books the RCC could have canonized for the New Testament, they chose the ones that actually strengthen the full preterist view. Seems to me that if the early church believed in a delayed 2nd coming, they could have canonized books that would reflect that view. Why didn't they? hmmm.


Peace
Ephron
That is a pearl of wisdom indeed!

I never looked at it that way before!

I told you I learn something new ever day here!

Thanks Eph!
 
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parousia70 said:
Ephron,

You may also find this helpful:



After all the disciples and the early church died, off and took their
original Jewish understanding of the "parousia" with them. The church
became mostly fill with Greek-Gentiles who brought a lot of pagan background
and understanding to the church with them. We have to remember after the
Jewish saints in the early church physical died off there were only a few
saints to draw on. (For some strange reason) after (A.D. 70) the church
went to great lengths to divorce itself from any Jewish roots and
connections. Unfortunately this included their original understanding of the
parousia.

So it made a significant impact on the Gentiles understanding of these
things. So in the middle of the second century church fathers like
(Shepherd of Hermas, Justin Martyr and other) postulated the "postponed
second advent (parousia)" idea. It didn't come from the Old Testament. A
vital point, they totally ignored is that Old Testament prophecy never
implied two coming divided be centuries ( see Isaiah 34:8, 35:4-6, 40:10-11,
61:1-2 62:11, 63:1-6, 66:6-16, Zech 14, and Mal. 4:16 etc. The language used
closely connects the coming of the Lord with both (salvation and vengeance)
"judgment."

The only thing in the New Testament which even comes close to teaching a
"second advent" is Hebrews 9:28, where it says Christ will "appear a second
time." This was using the symbolism of the High Priest at Yom Kippur when
he took the blood into the holy place and then reappeared back outside the
Temple to announce that atonement had been accomplished.

The early church understood this to be simply a reappearance during His
"one-and-only advent to consummated his kingdom. Not an entirely different
advent after a long indefinite period. However the saints who lived in the
middle of the second century when they saw the remaining prophecies
associated with Christ's parousia did not occur in the physical-literal way
they assumed they had not been fulfilled at all.

So they began adjusting their concept of the TIME of fulfillment, instead of
considering the possibility that their concepts of the NATURE of fulfillment
were the only things needing adjustment. This thinking is where the
mistake was made, and it has affected Christianity ever since.

Unfortunately it occurred before the creeds were developed, so this
misunderstanding was incorporated into them, as well. Many (but not all )
assumed that a physical body is the subject of N.T. resurrection texts, just
like the Jews assumed their physical temple, nation and land were the
subjects of all O.T. restoration prophecies. They assumed to much physical
and literal concepts.

Like the unbelieving Jews of Jesus's day who liberalized the "kingdom of
God" they liberalized the rest of the fulfillment associated with Christ
parousia, Justin Martyr, Shepherd of Hermas and 2 Clement seem to be
credited with changing thing because doubts about imminence were beginning
to ooze into their minds. The thought never seems to occur to them that
their concept of the NATURE of fulfillment was the problem instead of the
TIME of fulfillment. Rather than shift to a spiritual nature of
fulfillment, they instead tampered with the time statements.


Now Listen to these suggestions by Kurt Aland....we discover a decisive
turning point in the second half of the second century a watershed decisive
for the development of the Christian church. It was the definite conviction
not only of Paul, but of all Christians of that time, that they themselves
would experience the return of the Lord;

The Apocalypse expresses the fervent waiting for the end withing the circles
in which the writer lived-not an expectation that will happen at some
unknown point x in time, but one in the immediate present. If we browse
through the writings of that period we observe that this expectation of the
end continued. In fact, we also find ti the writing of the first half of
the second century sufficient evidence to indicate that the expectation of
the Parousia was by no means at an end then.

At the end of the Didache ("the teaching of the twelve apostles"), from the
time shortly after 100, there is, for example, an apocalyptic chapter which
corresponds completely in its outline to the Synoptic apocalypse in Mark 13
(and the parallel chapters in the other Synoptic Gospels.); here we can only
very cautiously say that it used the same words, but that its content is
imperceptibly in the process of change. It quite similar to the Epistle of
Barnabas which was written a little later that the Didache, where we read:
(The day is near in which everything will perish together with the evil.
The Lord ans his recompense are near).

Again and again the old expressions echo. They echo apparently almost
unchanged, but ("doubt about the imminence of the Lord's return is
increasingly mixed with them until around the middle of the second century
when the Shepherd of Hermas thinks he has found a solution and expresses it
with great thoroughness and emphaisi: the Parousia-the Lord's return-has
been postponed for the sake of Christians them selves. The building of the
tower has not been stopped,) it is only temporarily suspended. Therefore
and this is the warning of the Shepherd of Hermas, on account of which the
entire work was really written do good works for your purification, for if
you delay too long, the construction of the tower may be finished and you
will not be included as stones built into it.

The thought of a postponement of the Parousia appears all through 2 Clement
but here it is expressly mentioned for the first time. Thus, about the
middle of the second century, a decisive turning point occurs one which can
be compared in significance to all other great turning points, including the
Reformation. Obviously, we cannot fix this turning point precisely at the
year 150, for it took a while until the though caught hold everywhere. But
a development does begin with the Shepherd of Hermas which could not be
stopped-a development at the end of which we stand today. As soon as the
thought of a postponement of the Parousia was uttered once and indeed not
only incidentally, but thoroughly presented in an entire writing-it
developed its (own life and power).

At first, people looked at it as only a brief postponement, as the Shepherd
of Hermas clearly expresses. But soon, as the end of the world did not
occur, it was conceived of as a longer and longer period, until finally-this
is today's situation nothing but the thought of a postponement exists in
people's consciousness. (Kurt Aland. A History of Christianity. (2 vols.)
Fortress Press: 1985. Vol. 1,pp.89-102


These are pretty powerful statements, and they're coming from someone who
knows a "decisive turning point" when he sees one. It is time students of
Scripture exhaustively examined eschatology, using all the alliable
information that has accumulated since the first century, but reserving all
judgment to Scripture alone.


God Bless,
P70
Hi...I am new to this sight. I thoroughly enjoyed your post, and am also learning new things everyday on this sight. I was wondering if you would like to comment on the Lord's supper.. I think that it is an often miss quoted scripture. I hear often that it deals with Christ's return...and I rejoice in the fact that he has returned. Just a short question for you. Thanks...wuthurus.
 
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parousia70

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wuthurus said:
I was wondering if you would like to comment on the Lord's supper.. Just a short question for you. Thanks...wuthurus.
Hi wuthurus!
I'll give you the short answer on my view of the Lords supper.

As a preterist, I hold a high view of the Eucharist as an essential participation in Christ's covenant. It is a covenantal rite, it is the chief act of worship celebrating that we are one body, it declares that we are married to Christ/God, and it affects the life and sanctification of the believer by the Holy Spirit.

Since Christ's parousia, it is no longer a somber rememberance, but is now indeed the wedding feast of the Lamb.
God Bless
 
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stauron

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parousia70 said:
Hi wuthurus!
I'll give you the short answer on my view of the Lords supper.

As a preterist, I hold a high view of the Eucharist as an essential participation in Christ's covenant. It is a covenantal rite, it is the chief act of worship celebrating that we are one body, it declares that we are married to Christ/God, and it affects the life and sanctification of the believer by the Holy Spirit.

Since Christ's parousia, it is no longer a somber rememberance, but is now indeed the wedding feast of the Lamb.
God Bless
Yeah, this is good, you go p70!

I look at the passover as the type.

There was the ceremony and instruction to the people pointing towards the act that God was about to perform.

There was the event that changed their life and set them up for the wild ride that was the beginning of the covenant. The chase from Egypt and the wandering in the desert. Their arrival at the mount that quaked. Then God's representative descending to the people of to give them His word and remove those that despised His grace. All things which were mirrored closely in the first century when Christ completed all the shadows.

Finally, there was the tradition that carried on till the end of the age, looking back to the event to remind generation after generation that God is faithful. And since Christ's covenant is the everlasting one, and the permanant one, and the anti-typical one, the feast is too.
 
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parousia70

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stauron said:
Yeah, this is good, you go p70!

I look at the passover as the type.

There was the ceremony and instruction to the people pointing towards the act that God was about to perform.

There was the event that changed their life and set them up for the wild ride that was the beginning of the covenant. The chase from Egypt and the wandering in the desert. Their arrival at the mount that quaked. Then God's representative descending to the people of to give them His word and remove those that despised His grace. All things which were mirrored closely in the first century when Christ completed all the shadows.

Finally, there was the tradition that carried on till the end of the age, looking back to the event to remind generation after generation that God is faithful. And since Christ's covenant is the everlasting one, and the permanant one, and the anti-typical one, the feast is too.
Excellent Stauron!

I too understand the passover as the type, in fact, I was marvelling the other day as to Just how detailed the passover typifies the eucharist.

The Hebrews were instructed not only to paint the blood of the lamb upon their doorways, using a hyssop branch BTW, (the same type branch that the sponge soaked with wine was lifted up to Christ on the cross) but they were also COMMANDED to roast and EAT the lambs flesh with girded loins ready to flee.

Those who only painted the blood and did not eat the flesh of the lamb may indee have been passed over by the plague, but they would not have had the energy for the journey.

Not only do we need the sprinkled blood of Christ the lamb on our "doorways", We also need to Eat the flesh of Christ the Lamb if we wish the strength for the journey ahead of each of us a Believers.

I do not feel it's a salvation issue, but it is a sanctification issue.
 
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countrymousenc

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Amen p70 and stauron! (cm checking in.)

Something else about the early Church's experience...

In studying the progression of eschatological thought, I observed a pattern. During the apostolic period the Church's primary persecutor was Jerusalem. Once it was destroyed by the Romans, the Jews no longer had any authority to arrest or execute Christians, but they continued to verbally bash the Church. However, beginning with a brief persecution under Domitian, the Church found herself once again under opposition that was always potentially and often actually deadly. It's not hard to understand why, under the circumstances, the Church turned her attention toward Rome as the harlot city to be destroyed by Christ. Add the passage in Irenaeus that may mean that the Apocalypse was seen during Domitian's reign, or may mean that St. John was seen during Domitian's reign.

Even so, in the eschatological material in both the Old and New Testaments, the Holy Spirit established a pattern of how God deals with the enemies of His people at all times and in all places. While Rome didn't exactly fall, it was transformed when its emporer, Constantine, embraced the Christian faith. Paganism, as the civilized world's official religion, did fall. So the Apocalypse was, in a certain way, fulfilled again.
 
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zechariah 14:4.when the Lord physically returns to earth at the end of the 7 year tribulation :and in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,which faces Jerusalem on the east.And the Mount of Olives will be split in two,from east to west ,Making a very large valley.This of course has not happened yet.Revelations was written by John in 95-96 A.D,After the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D.If all had been fullfilled then,why was the book of Revelations written?According to the bible all of these events are to occur in the future.1.The rapture of the church(1 Thess.4:13-18)when Jesus returns to take to heaven all those who have believed in Him since His life and death on earth;2 The judgement of believers for rewards for faithful service(1 Cor.3:12-15;2 Tim 4:8;1 Peter 5:4);3 The revival of the Roman Empire(Rev17:3-13)which is the current ecm.4 The rise of the Antichrist(Rev13:1-8)5.The seven year period known as the Great tribulation represented by seals,trumpets,and bowls poured out on the earth.Rev 16:1-7 describes seven bowls which definately did not occur in 70 A.D.Please take the time to read all the above and let the Holy Spirit guide you.Rev 6:1-8:6 describes the 7 seals,and Rev 8:7-11:19 describes the7 trumpets.These things are also future events and did not occur in 70 A.D.Rev 22:18-19 is a warning to those who try to spiritalize the book of Revelation and insist all has been fulfilled.The church which is made up of born again Christians did not replace Israel.Gods covenants with the nation of Israel were unconditional and everlasting.There is a divine principle that begans in Genesis and runs through the Scripture,though it is little known to the church.God blesses the Gentiles through the Jewish people.Gen 12:1-3.In Genesis 13:14,15,God told Abraham ,"Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are...for all the land which you see I give to you and your decendants forever.In Genesus 15:18 "On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abhram saying :To your decendants I have given this land,from the river of Egypt to the great river,the River Euphrates.This is a real literal land.Look on your map.The plo is wrong.The land they are occupying belongs to God and Israel.Anyone who pays attention to current events can see the world is headed toward a one world goverment,a one world economy and a one world religion.Does the term New Age sound familar?
 
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