Question for non-literalists

[Saucy]

Many Christians hold the view that the Creation story was myth. I believe God created the earth in seven literal days, placed Adam and Eve in the garden where they sinned.

My question is for those who don't believe in a literal creation...Do you believe in the Adam and Eve story? Effectively, if Adam never existed, then there is no need for Christ. God never "made" man perfect and in His own image...we just evolved. To evolve, means to better yourselves in a way. We go from unintelligent apes to intelligent humans and we keep getting smarter and smarter until we eventually become perfect.

That's not what's happening. The bible states God created man in His perfect image, then through sin, man begins to go backwards. Though technology is improving, our morals and way of life is going backwards.

Simply speaking, if we're just evolving, we don't need Christ. If there was no Adam, sin never entered the world. What do you non-creationist believers say about this?

 

[random_guy]

Many Christians hold the view that the Creation story was myth. I believe God created the earth in seven literal days, placed Adam and Eve in the garden where they sinned.

My question is for those who don't believe in a literal creation...Do you believe in the Adam and Eve story? Effectively, if Adam never existed, then there is no need for Christ. God never "made" man perfect and in His own image...we just evolved. To evolve, means to better yourselves in a way. We go from unintelligent apes to intelligent humans and we keep getting smarter and smarter until we eventually become perfect.

That's not what's happening. The bible states God created man in His perfect image, then through sin, man begins to go backwards. Though technology is improving, our morals and way of life is going backwards.

Simply speaking, if we're just evolving, we don't need Christ. If there was no Adam, sin never entered the world. What do you non-creationist believers say about this?

I'm not sure if Adam was a literal person or if the myth relaying when God imbued a population of humans with souls. It's something that would not affect my faith, either way. That said, your views of evolution are completely wrong. Evolution doesn't say life will become perfect. It says life will adapt to the environment. Is the higher rate of sickle cell anemia in areas of malaria really a sign of humans becoming perfect? No, it's just humans adapting to their environment. Also, I highly doubt we'll get smarter and smarter until we reach perfect. Look at how many years have passed since we've started writing, and look at how stupid we still are with all the wars, environmental destruction, etc... This doesn't mean that our morals are going backwards. If anything, it's improving as more countries begin to accept things such as equal rights. Finally, why would evolution affect Christ's gift of salvation?

The problem is you've bought the militant atheist/Creationists views that evolution makes religion useless or God useless. No TEists on this board believes so.

 

[Saucy]

Hmmm, interesting response. I didn't mean we would become perfect, but evolving means a perfecting...we should be getting better and better and better, learn to live in peace and have answers for everything, but God describes us as getting worse and worse and worse until the whole world is in war and He has to step in and stop it all.

 

[Calminian]

I'm not sure if Adam was a literal person or if the myth relaying when God imbued a population of humans with souls.

This implies that souls are somehow created sinful. The creation story says God breathed the breath of life into Adam and then called him, with his spirit, along with the rest of creation, "very good."

 

[pgp_protector]

Hmmm, interesting response. I didn't mean we would become perfect, but evolving means a perfecting...we should be getting better and better and better, learn to live in peace and have answers for everything, but God describes us as getting worse and worse and worse until the whole world is in war and He has to step in and stop it all.

No Evolution dose not mean a perfecting or getting better & better.

As the first response stated it says life will adapt to the enviroment, not get better or perfection.

 

[random_guy]

Hmmm, interesting response. I didn't mean we would become perfect, but evolving means a perfecting...we should be getting better and better and better, learn to live in peace and have answers for everything, but God describes us as getting worse and worse and worse until the whole world is in war and He has to step in and stop it all.

No, evolution doesn't mean perfecting at all. Tell me, does carrying the sickle cell anemia gene make a human/life more perfect? It may help a carrier survive in Africa, but it also lead to 1/4 of the children dying due to inheritance of both recessive genes from parents. You're trying to attach metaphysics to a scientific theory, and it just doesn't work that way. All evolution says is that allele frequencies in a gene pool will change over time.

 

[Saucy]

Okay, I understand what you're saying now. Sorry, I'm no scientist. But my question still stands...don't we need Adam for us to need Christ? If we just evolved over time, then what really is sin?

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Okay, I understand what you're saying now. Sorry, I'm no scientist. But my question still stands...don't we need Adam for us to need Christ? If we just evolved over time, then what really is sin?

With or without a literal Adam we are still not in step with God. Why would you think that Adam not existing would suddenly change human’s relationship with God?

 

[Saucy]

because the bible says God created man as perfect, breathing a soul into us that was "good". Because of sin by Adam, the bible says that "No one is good, no not one!" We have been corrupted by sin. We are different now than when we were created.

God created us for a relationship, but something messed that up...sin entered the world somehow and our relationship with God sufferered. The cross bridged the gap!

 

[Jadis40]

The way I'd answer this question is I do believe that at some point sin entered the world. But, the thing to pay close attention to is that Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are two completely different accounts of creation.

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make people in our image, to be like ourselves. They will be masters over all life-the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, and all the livestock, wild animals, and small animals."

Genesis 1:27 So God created people in his own image;God patterned them after himself; male and female he created them.

Genesis 1:28 God blessed them and told them, "Multiply and fill the earth and subdue it. Be masters over the fish and all the animals."

This verse clearly indicates that God meant for the world to be populated. I firmly believe that it's speaking of humanity in general. I believe that when you look at archeological findings, this idea is borne out in its fullest context when we see historical evidence of civilizations all over the globe at the same time, such as India and Egypt. The problem is, that at some point, mankind began to think that God was best represented by idols. Hence the statement that mankind started worshiping the creation rather than the creator.

So, to me, as someone who takes a non-literal interpretation of Genesis 1-11, I think that God's plan was never frustrated.
Whether or not Adam was a literal person is non-material when you take into account that the full reality of redemption was realized in Jesus Christ.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

because the bible says God created man as perfect, breathing a soul into us that was "good". Because of sin by Adam, the bible says that "No one is good, no not one!" We have been corrupted by sin. We are different now than when we were created.

God created us for a relationship, but something messed that up...sin entered the world somehow and our relationship with God sufferered. The cross bridged the gap!

And if Adam is not a real person, but represents all of humanity, that changes the fact that we are out of step with God how?

 

[pgp_protector]

Dose Good = Perfect ?

 

[Jase]

Okay, I understand what you're saying now. Sorry, I'm no scientist. But my question still stands...don't we need Adam for us to need Christ? If we just evolved over time, then what really is sin?

Sin is a transgression against divine law. It is an abstract concept. You can't touch sin. Does Adam not existing change whether we break divine laws or not?

 

[Jase]

because the bible says God created man as perfect, breathing a soul into us that was "good". Because of sin by Adam, the bible says that "No one is good, no not one!" We have been corrupted by sin. We are different now than when we were created.

Nothing in the Bible says humans were created perfect. "Good" does not mean perfect.

 

[theFijian]

Dose Good = Perfect ?

Please see this thread here; no where in Genesis 1 is Creation described as 'perfect'.

 

[Calminian]

If the first Adam does not need to be literal to be true, than neither does the last Adam.

1Cor. 15:45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

There are people that believe science falsifies all miracles and therefore interpret the entire Bible as allegorical truth. Bishop Spong and the Jesus Seminar are great examples. If we compromise on Genesis, we have no basis to criticize them. Why does Jesus have to be literal to be true, if Adam doesn't?

 

[DailyBlessings]

Sin makes more sense to me as a human condition anyway. Punishing everyone for a single sin doesn't explain anything really- If the sin was Adam's only, than one of the rest of us could conceivably be without sin. That however is clearly not the case. At some point in our development, humanity chose pride and intellect over animal instinct, and this caused us to stray permanently from the will of God, except through the salvation offered us by Christ.

 

[Mskedi]

Like many have already said, Adam can be literal or figurative and it makes no difference to the relition as a whole.

 

[Calminian]

Sin makes more sense to me as a human condition anyway. Punishing everyone for a single sin doesn't explain anything really- If the sin was Adam's only, than one of the rest of us could conceivably be without sin. That however is clearly not the case. At some point in our development, humanity chose pride and intellect over animal instinct, and this caused us to stray permanently from the will of God, except through the salvation offered us by Christ.

Say goodbye to the doctrine of original sin. Another casualty of compromise.

 

[shernren]

If the first Adam does not need to be literal to be true, than neither does the last Adam.

1Cor. 15:45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

There are people that believe science falsifies all miracles and therefore interpret the entire Bible as allegorical truth. Bishop Spong and the Jesus Seminar are great examples. If we compromise on Genesis, we have no basis to criticize them. Why does Jesus have to be literal to be true, if Adam doesn't?

"My dad is a real-life Romeo" doesn't make Romeo a historical figure or my dad a mythical figure. Comparisons alone cannot be used to determine the historicity or mythicity of a figure.

And the issue of the relationship of the Resurrection to origins science has been addressed before: http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=23643223&postcount=46

Many Christians hold the view that the Creation story was myth. I believe God created the earth in seven literal days, placed Adam and Eve in the garden where they sinned.

My question is for those who don't believe in a literal creation...Do you believe in the Adam and Eve story? Effectively, if Adam never existed, then there is no need for Christ. God never "made" man perfect and in His own image...we just evolved. To evolve, means to better yourselves in a way. We go from unintelligent apes to intelligent humans and we keep getting smarter and smarter until we eventually become perfect.

That's not what's happening. The bible states God created man in His perfect image, then through sin, man begins to go backwards. Though technology is improving, our morals and way of life is going backwards.

Simply speaking, if we're just evolving, we don't need Christ. If there was no Adam, sin never entered the world. What do you non-creationist believers say about this?

See what the Bible calls "perfection" isn't simply biological perfection. In the Bible God calls creation "very good". This shows that when creation was formed (whether 6,000 years ago, or 4.5 billion years ago) God was pleased with it. God was pleased with every aspect of creation He had made.

Now, different TEs (theistic evolutionists) believe different things about Adam and Eve, but I believe that they were very real people who were given a very real choice to sin or to obey God, and who ended up choosing to sin. It may not have been something like plucking a fruit off a tree, but sin did have to enter somewhere. God gave man the choice to believe or to reject Him, and man chose to reject Him.

Your question is, can evolution reverse this? It's a good question and it needs to be addressed. I would say that no, it cannot. The reason being that evolution is simply a theory of biological change, not spiritual change. Evolution cannot change our spirits, what makes us "human", any more than you can change the software in a computer by upgrading its processor and graphics cards.

Think of it this way. As Christians, we believe that all mankind has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Does that include all mankind, even, say, geniuses? Yes, even geniuses have fallen short of the glory of God and sinned, no matter how smart they are. Well, let's say evolution proceeds and within four thousand years every human alive is as smart as Einstein. Nobody needs any more PDAs or calculators or computers because they can instantly run off differential equations in their heads and people teach calculus to 7-year-olds and all. They have become smart, sure. But remember what we said, that even if a human is a genius he or she is still a sinner until saved by the grace of God. Will that apply to them too? Yes. No matter how smart they are they will still need God. The same principle that applies today will apply then.

Evolution can only change our biology. It may make us (as a species) smarter or stupider, taller or shorter, faster or slower ... but it cannot change our relationship to God. Our relationship with God has nothing to do with genes, and only the blood of Christ can restore it. Rest assured that evolution is simply incapable of taking up that role.