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Question for Mormons

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EchoPneuma

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Apex said:
Infact most of Gnostic beliefs were almost completley unknown untill the Nag Hammadi Library.

Well, that's true and not true. We know about them by the early church father's writing AGAINST them, and by doing that they quoted extensively what they believed so that they could rebut it. True, we didn't have it in it's completion like we do now with the Nag Hammadi texts, but we did understand much of what they believed.

The Dead Sea Scrolls are also Gnostic in nature and predated the time of Christ....so Gnosticism is older than Christianity, but with the advent of Jesus, many Gnostics embraced Jesus as the "Logos" that the Greek philosophers spoke of. It's interesting that John refers to Jesus in John 1:1 as the "Logos" when that is the word the Greeks used to refer to the "Divine Light" in all men...and they used that term many years before the advent of Jesus.
 
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EchoPneuma

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Orontes said:
EchoPneuma,

I think this is an interesting question, but given Gnosticism covers such a wide array of positions, it's difficult to come to terms with in a meaningful way. There are over 70 identifiable Gnostic sects. The parameters could go from Simon Magus to Marcion to Valentinius to Clement of Alexandria. Do you have a particular version of Gnosticism you are thinking of? If you are thinking in the most general terms then there are noteable differences.

Yeah, you're right. There are a wide variety of Gnostic beliefs. Hmmm. maybe take Valentinus for example. Even Iraeneus said he was one of the more "mainstream" gnostics. How much does Mormonism have in common with the teachings of Valentinus? Any ideas?
 
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EchoPneuma

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Eteponge said:
I'm a Judeo-Christian Mystic who draws heavily from the Valentinian, Kabbalistic, Quaker, and Early Mormon Mysticism Traditions.

I find the Pistis Sophia to be very interesting.


That's an interesting combination of beliefs. How did you come by it. So you consider yourself a Christian?

I also consider myself a Christian "mystic" for lack of a better word. "Mystic" meaning a person who focuses on an inner relationship with God and an inner enlightenment from Christ rather than being dependent on outside teaching.

I've studied the Gnostic writings and see some of those elements in the bible too. Jesus, of course, was the ultimate "mystic"....teaching that a man could have a personal INNER experience with God and get personal INNER revelation from God alone....and that the temple was now the body of a man....and that the kingdom of God was inside a person. Those are all gnostic beliefs that predated Jesus. Perhaps that is why many Gnostics embraced Him as the true way?

The gnostics appeared to have some pieces of the puzzle.

What do you believe about spirituality?
 
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Deraj

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EchoPneuma said:
Thanks Deraj. I appreciate your input. You do realize however that there are also Gnostic beliefs that run totally counter to Mormon theology. Do Mormons believe in reincarnation?

Also, Gnostics taught that there was no need at all for any type of institutionalized church or organization....that all TRUE worship was done within a person's own soul between them and God alone....and that God alone would enlighten them. (This is where I myself have agreement with them) based on what Jesus and John say.

This runs totally contrary to Mormon practice.

To be honest... no, I only knew of a few gnostic beliefs and those few were complimentary to the teachings of the Church. I guess there were divisions in gnosticism like there is in Christianity now then?
Concerning the belief that there is no need for any type of institutionalized church or organisation, I had never heard of this one either. We would believe that in an ideal world (ie, in the millenium, I don't think there will be a need for a Church). But the conditions in the world at the moment are not right, with so much confusion over doctrine. The church is needed at the moment anyway, in order for unity in doctrine and spirit, in Christ basically. I think that without the LDS Church organistion, the same thing would happen to our beliefs, as happened to the beliefs of Christianity in the first few centuries after Christ. I don't think there would be as many members of our Church believing the same thing, without the organisation.

Do you know enough about Gnostics (or does anyone), to explain how they put across this belief (ie explain the belief in no necessity for Church or similar organisation in more depth)?
 
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Eteponge

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EchoPneuma said:
That's an interesting combination of beliefs. How did you come by it. So you consider yourself a Christian?

I also consider myself a Christian "mystic" for lack of a better word. "Mystic" meaning a person who focuses on an inner relationship with God and an inner enlightenment from Christ rather than being dependent on outside teaching.

I've studied the Gnostic writings and see some of those elements in the bible too. Jesus, of course, was the ultimate "mystic"....teaching that a man could have a personal INNER experience with God and get personal INNER revelation from God alone....and that the temple was now the body of a man....and that the kingdom of God was inside a person. Those are all gnostic beliefs that predated Jesus. Perhaps that is why many Gnostics embraced Him as the true way?

The gnostics appeared to have some pieces of the puzzle.

What do you believe about spirituality?
All of which you stated above is dead on with my own Spirituality and Mysticism. I find myself in total agreement with this Spiritual Perspective, it totally describes me and my view of things. Yes, I identify myself as strongly Christian, and as an adherent of various Judeo-Christian Mysticism Traditions.
 
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EchoPneuma

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Deraj said:
To be honest... no, I only knew of a few gnostic beliefs and those few were complimentary to the teachings of the Church. I guess there were divisions in gnosticism like there is in Christianity now then?
Concerning the belief that there is no need for any type of institutionalized church or organisation, I had never heard of this one either. We would believe that in an ideal world (ie, in the millenium, I don't think there will be a need for a Church). But the conditions in the world at the moment are not right, with so much confusion over doctrine. The church is needed at the moment anyway, in order for unity in doctrine and spirit, in Christ basically. I think that without the LDS Church organistion, the same thing would happen to our beliefs, as happened to the beliefs of Christianity in the first few centuries after Christ. I don't think there would be as many members of our Church believing the same thing, without the organisation.

Do you know enough about Gnostics (or does anyone), to explain how they put across this belief (ie explain the belief in no necessity for Church or similar organisation in more depth)?

They believed what was later taught in the bible, that a man's body was the temple of God...

1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were brought with a price, therefore honor God with your body.

THerefore, if our body is now the temple of God, then there is no longer a need for a physical temple in which to meet God. He meets us within ourselves...within our own spirits. That is why Jesus prophecied the destruction of the physical temple in Luke 21 (which happened in AD70 BTW), because He was ushering in a new kind of temple and new way of worship. That's why He said to the Samartian woman in John 4:


19"Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. 20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem." (at the temple) 21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem (at the temple). 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

That is what the Gnostics believed. That true worship wasn't in a building or any physical location, but within the spirit of a person's own body/temple.

They believed in "gnosis" which is where the name Gnostic comes from. "Gnosis" was an experiential deeper knowledge of God that could only come directly from Him to you by way of the spirit. Therefore, they didn't believe in any institution that stood between them and God as a means to know truth. They believed that GOd alone revealed truth to a man's spirit.

They did however, have gatherings and meet together in small groups....but there was no heirarchy or leadership. They believed that all were equal because all had God enlightening them. THe believed in total equality of the sexes. They considered women to be just as enligthened as men....that in God's new economy of spirit there was no male and female.....

Galatians 3:28
27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus

This is what they believed.

Each person shared what God had spoken to them and the others considered it, and took that knowledge to God for confirmation or rejection.

Different groups had differnt beliefs about Jesus. SOme believed as Mormon's do that Jesus was an exalted man. Some believed as Catholics do that Jesus was both God and man. Some believed as the Oneness Pentecostals that Jesus was only the Son of God, but not God Himself. Some believed Jesus wasn't really flesh, but a spirit being, and some believed He was only flesh like we are, but became spiritual. So there was a wide discussion on the nature of Jesus. But they ALL believed in Jesus as the Messiah and "Light" of the world. They ALL believed that He was "the Way" back to the Father.

They were universalists who believed that we are all the prodigal sons of God who must wake up and return home....and we all will in time. Therefore, they believed in reincarnation and based this on Jesus saying that John the Baptist was Elijah...and the disciples asking Jesus concerning the man who was BORN blind...

John 9:2
His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

They reasoned that the disciples wouldn't have asked this question unless they already had an understanding of reincarnation. Otherwise, how could a man's sins cause him to be BORN blind?

So, they believed in reincarnation, but their beliefs about how it worked were varied.

Anyway, that is just some of it. THere's much more in their writings. Some of it is extremely hard to sift through, and doesn't appear to make sense....but I'm sure it did to them. Some of it aligns with the bible.

One more example. They believed that all people are "sparks of the divine" and are children of God, but don't realize it and therefore sin and live a carnal life rather than walking with their Father. They said that such a person was a "sleeper" who had not yet risen from the dead (awoken to his true spiritual nature) so that Christ could enlighten them and they could repent and begin to walk with God. This "waking up" was what they considered to be the spiritual resurrection..ie..."rising from the dead". This sounds foreign to Christian ears, yet look what Paul says:

Ephesians 5: 13-14:

13 But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. 14 Therefore He says:

“ Awake, you who sleep,
Arise from the dead,
And Christ will give you light.”

WHo is the "HE" that Paul is quoting here? It must be none other than God. Doesn't that quote sound just like what the Gnostics believed?

Things like that are what interest me.
 
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EchoPneuma

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Eteponge said:
All of which you stated above is dead on with my own Spirituality and Mysticism. I find myself in total agreement with this Spiritual Perspective, it totally describes me and my view of things. Yes, I identify myself as strongly Christian, and as an adherent of various Judeo-Christian Mysticism Traditions.

How did you come to embrace these beliefs? What path did you take?

Have you studied Kabbalah? Have you read the Zohar? Understand the sepharoth?

Sorry for all the questions....I'm just insatiably curious about what God has shown to others. :thumbsup:
 
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Orontes

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EchoPneuma said:
Yeah, you're right. There are a wide variety of Gnostic beliefs. Hmmm. maybe take Valentinus for example. Even Iraeneus said he was one of the more "mainstream" gnostics. How much does Mormonism have in common with the teachings of Valentinus? Any ideas?

OK, that is a good choice. As I recall, Valentinius was considered orthodox through life: he became a heretic post mortem (itself an interesting notion). If I were to look at the differences, these are some that come to mind: Valentinian (V) metaphysics are based on a fundamental dualism. Mormonism (M) is not. Mormonism is a thorough going materialism. V considered generation of being through an emanation or effulgence. M does not. V saw the created order as error. M does not. I think I recall, V made a distinction between Christ and Jesus. M does not. I also think V had a docetistic element to it. M does not. I think one would also have to look at the base notion of gnosis. M sees gnosis as essential, but not sufficient for salvation. One may be able to argue V saw gnosis as sufficient. These are a few initial thoughts.

No doubt there are similarities as well. I went for differences to start.
 
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EchoPneuma

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Orontes said:
OK, that is a good choice. As I recall, Valentinius was considered orthodox through life: he became a heretic post mortem (itself an interesting notion)


Yeah, interesting. Who gets to decide if someone is a heretic? I'm considered a heretic in Baptist circles because I'm a preterist....but I consider my beliefs more in line with the scriptures than what they believe. So I could look at them as the heretics if I chose (which I don't) What is one mans heresy is another mans orthodoxy.

.
If I were to look at the differences, these are some that come to mind: Valentinian (V) metaphysics are based on a fundamental dualism. Mormonism (M) is not. Mormonism is a thorough going materialism.

How so? Are you talking about the dualism of male and female spiritual polarities? Or some other type. How is it different than what Mormons believe? What do you mean by "thorough going materialism"?

. V considered generation of being through an emanation or effulgence. M does not.

Yes, the emanations and lower worlds thing. Doesn't Mormonism adhere to some vestiges of this because of their beliefs in different heavens and spheres of existence?

V saw the created order as error. M does not.

Yes, they viewed the "god of this world" that the bible talks about at the god that CREATED this world....and hence evil...and that this whole physical creation was a mistake. Don't know any religion that espouses that except Marcion who also viewed the God of the OT as evil and not the same Father God that Jesus taught about.

I think I recall, V made a distinction between Christ and Jesus. M does not.

I believe so too. That Jesus was a man who received the Christ spirit when He was anointed and at that point became "Jesus the Christ". How do Mormons differ on this?

I think one would also have to look at the base notion of gnosis. M sees gnosis as essential, but not sufficient for salvation. One may be able to argue V saw gnosis as sufficient. These are a few initial thoughts.

I think they viewed it as sufficient because they believed that if one was truly enlightened by God and had the knowledge of the divine by revelation that such a person would then follow the "light" and return to the Father.

No doubt there are similarities as well. I went for differences to start.

Thanks. That was very enlightening. I'm anxious to see your similarities.
 
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Paul G

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EchoPneuma said:
I have a few honest questions for Mormons. Hope you don't mind me picking your brain.

I've been here long enough to pretty much know what you guys believe. What I've found interesting is that much of what you believe is found in the gnostic writings of the first century. I've done alot of research into the gnostic gospels, Pistis Sophia, Kabbalah etc and it is very similar to Mormon theology in many ways.

Interesting question, I think a broader question but related to yours is. Does Heavenly Father allow others that have particular knowledge to come in contact with his servants in order to impart that knowledge? For example, did Paul the Apostle, who sojourned in the desert of Arabia, receive knowledge form priests of Zoroastrianism, which was the main religion in that area at that time, as there appears to be some similarities of ideas in his writings? The appearance of the Magi (Zoroastrian priests) in the Gospel narratives is another indirect connection to Zoroastrianism in the scriptures. In the old testament Moses sojourned with the priest of Midian, was there any religious or spiritual preparation here for his up and coming mission to Egypt? So did Joseph Smith partake in the same situations as the above servants of our Father in Heaven? May be.


Here's my question. Do you know if Joseph Smith was a student of the gnostic writings? Did he study Kabbalah?
 
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EchoPneuma

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Paul G said:
Interesting question, I think a broader question but related to yours is. Does Heavenly Father allow others that have particular knowledge to come in contact with his servants in order to impart that knowledge? For example, did Paul the Apostle, who sojourned in the desert of Arabia, receive knowledge form priests of Zoroastrianism, which was the main religion in that area at that time, as there appears to be some similarities of ideas in his writings? The appearance of the Magi (Zoroastrian priests) in the Gospel narratives is another indirect connection to Zoroastrianism in the scriptures.

Hmmmm...never thought about it. Yes, Paul did go to Arabia for 13 or so years after his conversion. He was a spiritual man, so I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't have interacted at all with the religious teachers in that land and shared with them. But it's all speculation. There are similarities though. Perhaps that is because in every religion there is a thread of truth that God plants there. Food for thought:scratch:


In the old testament Moses sojourned with the priest of Midian, was there any religious or spiritual preparation here for his up and coming mission to Egypt?

I can't believe that his father in law had NO influence on his spiritual perspective. The bible says that Jethro was a priest. So I'm sure they shared spiritual insights.

So did Joseph Smith partake in the same situations as the above servants of our Father in Heaven? May be.

Dunno. That's what I'm trying to find out.
 
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Orontes

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EchoPneuma said:
What is one mans heresy is another mans orthodoxy.

Quite.

How so? Are you talking about the dualism of male and female spiritual polarities? Or some other type. How is it different than what Mormons believe? What do you mean by "thorough going materialism"?

I'm not thinking of the masculine/feminine polarities. Rather I'm thinking of the order of being itself. The Pleroma in V is spiritual and thus distinct from and contrary to the material order. This is the duality I am referring to: two distinct orders of being.

What I mean by "thorough going materialism" is in M being is material. There is no immaterial matter, no other order of reality that is not material. M uses a similar vernacular as the larger Western Religious Tradition: i.e. men have spirits and there is a spiritual realm, but what is spirit is considered matter of a different order "more refined and pure" but nonetheless matter. Thus, being is understood as extending across a spectrum, if you will of organization, but it all remains matter.

Me: V considered generation of being through an emanation or effulgence. M does not.

Yes, the emanations and lower worlds thing. Doesn't Mormonism adhere to some vestiges of this because of their beliefs in different heavens and spheres of existence?


M recognizes various levels of being, operating along distinct spheres, but such does not address the source of existence or origin. In V emanation is the process whereby what is X becomes X1. Thus what is, is expanded and the expansion reflects back on its source in some fashion albeit perhaps less brightly than the origin. The system is inherently hierarchical and has a monistic pull (even though V doesn't seem to go all the way to a primordial one). M is quite different. Creation is organization. There is no creatio ex nihilo. Rather what is, necessarily is, meaning: what is acted upon has always been in some fashion. Deity is the creative force, but not the source of being. M makes a clear distinction between beings and being. M is metaphysically pluralistic while admitting a participatory element whereby the many may be one through a common medium. This medium is the area of the Divine.

Me: I think I recall, V made a distinction between Christ and Jesus. M does not.

I believe so too. That Jesus was a man who received the Christ spirit when He was anointed and at that point became "Jesus the Christ". How do Mormons differ on this?


M takes Jesus as the incarnation of Jehovah. M believes in a preexistence where all that become mortal existed previously as spirit beings. This includes Jesus. Those who come to the earth are the same essential beings they were previously save what was is veiled so as to allow the full experience of mortality and its moral choices. There is no Chalcedonian matrix in Mormon thought. Jesus was not a divided being, but a son of God as are all men. Yet He was distinct in that He was the only begotten in the flesh. At the lest, this allowed Him to survive the atonement and raise from the dead, but not forgo the trials of mortality. He is the Christ as He successfully trod the wine press.

Me: I think one would also have to look at the base notion of gnosis. M sees gnosis as essential, but not sufficient for salvation. One may be able to argue V saw gnosis as sufficient. These are a few initial thoughts.

I think they viewed it as sufficient because they believed that if one was truly enlightened by God and had the knowledge of the divine by revelation that such a person would then follow the "light" and return to the Father.


Perhaps so, I haven't read any V stuff in quite a while. In M moral demeanor is considered primary and necessarily prior to gnosis. It is the moral man whose eyes are opened. Thus, goodness has both epistemic and ontic ramifications and the reverse is true as well. In short, the moral informs the is.

Thanks. That was very enlightening. I'm anxious to see your similarities.

Sure. If any of the above is interesting and you want a little more filler we can discuss it. If not, then next go around I can point out some similarities.
 
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EchoPneuma

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Orontes said:
I'm not thinking of the masculine/feminine polarities. Rather I'm thinking of the order of being itself. The Pleroma in V is spiritual and thus distinct from and contrary to the material order. This is the duality I am referring to: two distinct orders of being.


Ok, I get you. THe pleroma being within the veil of negative existence and therefore wholly immaterial and spiritual...the material world coming about by emanations from God that brought the spiritual realities from negative existence into positive existence. M only believes in the positive existence and not the negative existence that proceeds it and causes it, according to V. Why is there no belief in negative existence? Is there some reason why M doesn't believe in a wholly immaterial and spiritual reality apart from this existence?
What I mean by "thorough going materialism" is in M being is material. There is no immaterial matter, no other order of reality that is not material. M uses a similar vernacular as the larger Western Religious Tradition: i.e. men have spirits and there is a spiritual realm, but what is spirit is considered matter of a different order "more refined and pure" but nonetheless matter. Thus, being is understood as extending across a spectrum, if you will of organization, but it all remains matter.


I've never heard this before. In Baptist circles we believe that the spirit is wholly spiritual and none material...that the unseen spiritual realities are in no way material....not even of a higher order. Is this an important thing with M? Or just a matter of esoteric minutia?

M recognizes various levels of being, operating along distinct spheres, but such does not address the source of existence or origin.

There is no speculation in M about the first cause or source of existence? Why?

In V emanation is the process whereby what is X becomes X1. Thus what is, is expanded and the expansion reflects back on its source in some fashion albeit perhaps less brightly than the origin

Plato's cave. All we see is only a poor reflection of the ultimate realities and not the realities themselves.

. The system is inherently hierarchical and has a monistic pull (even though V doesn't seem to go all the way to a primordial one). M is quite different. Creation is organization. There is no creatio ex nihilo. Rather what is, necessarily is, meaning: what is acted upon has always been in some fashion. Deity is the creative force, but not the source of being.

So M believes God is the creator and the organizer but He isn't the source of being? Then what would be the source of being?THere must be a First Cause.

M makes a clear distinction between beings and being. M is metaphysically pluralistic while admitting a participatory element whereby the many may be one through a common medium. This medium is the area of the Divine.
What is M's definition of "being" and opposed to "beings"?

M takes Jesus as the incarnation of Jehovah.

So Jesus is the Father in the flesh? I believe some gnostics taught that Jesus was Jehovah, but Jehovah wasn't the Father. The Father was the first Cause and Jehovah was the 2nd person of the Godhead and creator of the material world.(ie the Son).

M believes in a preexistence where all that become mortal existed previously as spirit beings. This includes Jesus.
This is very similar the gnostic belief. They based their belief in reincarnation of these things. That all souls were created on the 6th day of creation and then God rested. So that all human souls have preexisted before they were put into bodies of flesh and will continue to be put into bodies of flesh until they have reached spiritual purity and are fit for heaven.

Those who come to the earth are the same essential beings they were previously save what was is veiled so as to allow the full experience of mortality and its moral choices. There is no Chalcedonian matrix in Mormon thought. Jesus was not a divided being, but a son of God as are all men. Yet He was distinct in that He was the only begotten in the flesh. At the lest, this allowed Him to survive the atonement and raise from the dead, but not forgo the trials of mortality. He is the Christ as He successfully trod the wine press.

Very gnostic. Does M teach that there is a "forgetfulness" or "sleep" that is the cause of man not realizing he is of a divine spark? And does M teach that all men have the capacity to become Christ (an anointed one) and achieve the spiritual status of "Son of God".....thereby being equal with Jesus?





Perhaps so, I haven't read any V stuff in quite a while. In M moral demeanor is considered primary and necessarily prior to gnosis. It is the moral man whose eyes are opened.

So once a man repents and begins to live a godly life, THEN he will receive enlightenment? That's pretty much what the gnostics believed....with a few minor variations.

Thus, goodness has both epistemic and ontic ramifications and the reverse is true as well. In short, the moral informs the is.

You reap what you sow! Karma. Gnostics believed it very strongly. They said if you didn't pay in this life, you would pay in the next.

Sure. If any of the above is interesting and you want a little more filler we can discuss it. If not, then next go around I can point out some similarities.

Just a few more things. Hope I'm not picking your brain clean ;)

In thinking about all of this, do you know any reason why Jesus would tell the unbelieving Pharisees, who had rejected Him, that the kingdom of God was INSIDE THEM? I don't know about Mormon's....but Baptists have always been taught that only believers get the kingdom...so why would Jesus tell those guys that they had it inside them? Got any ideas?

Jesus sounds almost gnostic when He says that.
 
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Eteponge

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EchoPneuma said:
How did you come to embrace these beliefs? What path did you take?

Have you studied Kabbalah? Have you read the Zohar? Understand the sepharoth?

Sorry for all the questions....I'm just insatiably curious about what God has shown to others. :thumbsup:
I was born and raised Southern Baptist for the most part. I became sort of a Weak Agnostic during my early teenage years. Then in my later teenage years, I researched and embraced Christian Gnosticism, and around that same time, I got deep into Shamanism & Spiritualism & Mediumship and all of that sort of thing. I opened myself up to Mysticial Experience with the Divine. I had been more into Sethian/Ophite Gnosticism at one point, but I later came to embrace Valentinianism has having the most overall Spiritual Truth and Spiritual Understanding of the Scriptures overall of all the Early Gnostic Christian Sects. It just resonated so much with me Spiritually. I found certain disagreements with some of their interpretations and teachings however, but I feel there is some overall truth in what Valentinus was saying, although I don't feel his knowledge was perfect, and that he misunderstood certain things. Clement of Alexandria, an Orthodox Church Father, admitted the same, he said, "There is some truth to what Valentinus is saying". I got heavily into the various Christian Saints and Christian Mystics of the various Roman Catholic & Eastern Orthodox Churches, and recognized them as Gnostics in their own right. I also got heavily into Jewish Mysticism, Kabbalah, The Zohar, The Sephir Yetzira, Etc. I found the Sephirothic Emanations to be a practically mirrored concept of Valentinus' Aeonic Emanations. I also came to view the Jewish Figure of Metatron as the True Form of the Gnostic Demiurge. That is, not evil, not ignorant, merely a Servant of God Most High, and Angel that underwent Theosis (Deification) and is now adorned with every name that is a representation of the Father of the Totalities, and substains the material cosmos.

I came across Mormonism, and The Book of Mormon, and joined the LDS Church for several years, now I'm techinically inactive in their Church. I'm still a Strong Believer in The Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith as a Prophet of God and the First Vision and the Angelic/Prophetic Visitations of the Early LDS Church and The Restoration, Early Mormonism, and Mormon Mysticism. I find many Spiritual Truths in the Doctrine & Covenants and I also find the Book of Moses and Book of Abraham to be very interesting, but my main Spiritual Focus is The Book of Mormon. I see it all in a very Mystical context. However, I believe that after Joseph Smith's death, much was lost from that Church.

I researched George Fox and absolutely love his concept of the Inner Light / Inner Voice which is the same concept of the Gnostic & Kabbalah concept of the "Divine Spark" and the Hindu concept of the "Atman".

Thus, overall, I'm a Judeo-Christian Mystic who draws heavily from the Valentinian, Kabbalistic, Quaker, and Early Mormon Mysticism Traditions.

Non-Christian Religion wise, I highly favor Shamanism & Hinduism. I absolutely love Shamanism and Hinduism. I guess you could say I'm also a closet Shaman and a closet Hindu as well. I also always happen to get 100% Hinduism on the BeliefNet religion test quizes, hehe.
 
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Eteponge said:
I was born and raised Southern Baptist for the most part.

Yeah, me too....on the cradle roll in SS.

I became sort of a Weak Agnostic during my early teenage years. Then in my later teenage years, I researched and embraced Christian Gnosticism,

How did you even know about it...it's not like it's mainstream. Did someone tell you about it?



and around that same time, I got deep into Shamanism & Spiritualism & Mediumship and all of that sort of thing.

How do you feel about the biblical command against those types of practices? Calling on the dead and so forth?

I opened myself up to Mysticial Experience with the Divine. I had been more into Sethian/Ophite Gnosticism at one point, but I later came to embrace Valentinianism has having the most overall Spiritual Truth and Spiritual Understanding of the Scriptures overall of all the Early Gnostic Christian Sects. It just resonated so much with me Spiritually.

Much of it does with me too. Can't say why except it's the spirit bearing witness. I don't see any other explanation since I had never even heard of it and had no reason to accept it or believe it. It goes against every interpretation I've ever been taught in the Baptist church and yet it so much of it just rang true in my spirit.


I found certain disagreements with some of their interpretations and teachings however, but I feel there is some overall truth in what Valentinus was saying, although I don't feel his knowledge was perfect, and that he misunderstood certain things. Clement of Alexandria, an Orthodox Church Father, admitted the same, he said, "There is some truth to what Valentinus is saying".

It's funny you should say that. I was just reading Clement a couple of days ago. Even while he was calling Valentinus a heretic he was saying that alot of what he said was true. Interesting.

I got heavily into the various Christian Saints and Christian Mystics of the various Roman Catholic & Eastern Orthodox Churches, and recognized them as Gnostics in their own right. I also got heavily into Jewish Mysticism, Kabbalah, The Zohar, The Sephir Yetzira, Etc. I found the Sephirothic Emanations to be a practically mirrored concept of Valentinus' Aeonic Emanations. I also came to view the Jewish Figure of Metatron as the True Form of the Gnostic Demiurge. That is, not evil, not ignorant, merely a Servant of God Most High, and Angel that underwent Theosis (Deification) and is now adorned with every name that is a representation of the Father of the Totalities, and substains the material cosmos.

Good insights. I had never really compared them like that, but it does make sense.

I came across Mormonism, and The Book of Mormon, and joined the LDS Church for several years, now I'm techinically inactive in their Church. I'm still a Strong Believer in The Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith as a Prophet of God and the First Vision and the Angelic/Prophetic Visitations of the Early LDS Church and The Restoration, Early Mormonism, and Mormon Mysticism. I find many Spiritual Truths in the Doctrine & Covenants and I also find the Book of Moses and Book of Abraham to be very interesting, but my main Spiritual Focus is The Book of Mormon. I see it all in a very Mystical context. However, I believe that after Joseph Smith's death, much was lost from that Church.

What do you feel was lost?

I researched George Fox and absolutely love his concept of the Inner Light / Inner Voice which is the same concept of the Gnostic & Kabbalah concept of the "Divine Spark" and the Hindu concept of the "Atman".

It really is as if every religion has a thread of truth in it, just called by different names.

Thus, overall, I'm a Judeo-Christian Mystic who draws heavily from the Valentinian, Kabbalistic, Quaker, and Early Mormon Mysticism Traditions.

Quite eclectic. Bet it's hard for you to find a church huh? Even though I'm a preterist I continue to go to a southern Baptist church where they consider it heresy. I just keep my beliefs to myself. It's not like it's a salvation issue.

Non-Christian Religion wise, I highly favor Shamanism & Hinduism. I absolutely love Shamanism and Hinduism. I guess you could say I'm also a closet Shaman and a closet Hindu as well. I also always happen to get 100% Hinduism on the BeliefNet religion test quizes, hehe.

What does a Shaman do? How do you practice it?
 
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Ok, I get you. THe pleroma being within the veil of negative existence and therefore wholly immaterial and spiritual...the material world coming about by emanations from God that brought the spiritual realities from negative existence into positive existence. M only believes in the positive existence and not the negative existence that proceeds it and causes it, according to V. Why is there no belief in negative existence? Is there some reason why M doesn't believe in a wholly immaterial and spiritual reality apart from this existence?

Consider the meaning of negative existence. It has an oxymoronic feel to it. Existence is to literally stand out or apart from. It thereby necessarily implies a base from with the standing out occurs. The adjective 'negative' precludes such a base as negative means at its root to refuse. It is at its core a rejection of a thing. In its adjectival mode this would be the denial of the noun it modifies: thus, no-existence. No-existence or non-existence has no causality. Now, I don't think this is actually what V argued for. Rather, I think V couched its metaphysic along more platonic lines. If that's right then, instead of 'negative existence' one would refer to a formal existence. Formal is referring to forms: the eternal verities accessible to mind. The attraction of such an appeal is the forms escape the transience of the world and thereby allow a basis for knowledge claims. This also ties into the notion of emanation as there is a base existence from which a thing emanates.

The M canon doesn't come with any philosophical exegesis. Neither the Bible or Book of Mormon are philosophical texts. Even so, I think M rejection of immaterial existence solves several critical problems a dualist must face. As a simple example: Descartes after completing his Meditations was asked how the soul relates to the body. He suggested the pineal glad. This of course is completely unsatisfactory. If the body is material and spirit is immaterial then no relation is possible. It thus under cuts a fundamental principle of Christendom (a body has a soul). If I were a secular humanist this is one argument I would make against Traditional Christian sentiment. It is an insoluble problem. M escapes this criticism.

I've never heard this before. In Baptist circles we believe that the spirit is wholly spiritual and none material...that the unseen spiritual realities are in no way material....not even of a higher order. Is this an important thing with M? Or just a matter of esoteric minutia?

I don't think any other sect of Christendom holds this view. The Neo-platonic influence on Christian thought was fairly pronounced as the Church moved into the Medieval Period. Victorinus, St. Anselm and St. Augustine are three simple examples.

This is a standard position within Mormonism. I'll give you an example from the Doctrine and Covenants (a canonical work in Mormonism: a collection of Modern Revelations from Joseph Smith forward).

" It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance. There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter." -D&C 131 6-8


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Me: M recognizes various levels of being, operating along distinct spheres, but such does not address the source of existence or origin.
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There is no speculation in M about the first cause or source of existence? Why?
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[SIZE=+0]M takes being as absolute and would therefore agree with Parmenides and reject the notion something can arise from nothing.Your question revolves around contingency and necessity. God is typically seen as necessary, as in cannot not be, by definition. His creations are contingent, as in their being is directly tied to God's creative act and could be otherwise. This is fundamental to creatio ex nihilo. The difficulty is such a rubric means the Creator is ultimately responsible for His creation. This is where the demons of the theodicy raise their ugly heads. M sees the core of the self as necessary being: something that has always existed: [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things.
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Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be." D&C 93:28-29[/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]Intelligence is the vernacular in M for this fundamental aspect of self that is particular, self aware and capable of expansion. This standard allows M to see moral action as ultimately amenable to the subject alone and thus God remains untainted by the evils of men. [/SIZE][/SIZE]

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So M believes God is the creator and the organizer but He isn't the source of being? Then what would be the source of being?There must be a First Cause.
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[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]I think I answered this above. To reiterate: there is no source of being. Being is absolute. Maybe I can say this: God is not simply defined into existence as a First Cause or Unmoved Mover. God is not a tautology. Rather, God is the ultimate expression of perfection of being and the arche by and through which progress is possible. Does that make sense?[/SIZE][/SIZE]

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What is M's definition of "being" and opposed to "beings"?
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[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]I don't think Mormon definitions of being vs. beings is different from standard intellectual discourse. Being is the essential aspect of a being as found in and through experience. Being is that element that links all beings together as a class. [/SIZE][/SIZE]

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So Jesus is the Father in the flesh? I believe some gnostics taught that Jesus was Jehovah, but Jehovah wasn't the Father. The Father was the first Cause and Jehovah was the 2nd person of the Godhead and creator of the material world.(ie the Son).
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[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]M makes distinction between Jehovah and the Father in their personhood. Jehovah is considered the agent of the Father, the God of Israel and source of the law. I don't think V sees Jehovah as the creator of the world. I recall materiality is tied to Sophia and is considered a wrong.


Me: M believes in a preexistence where all that become mortal existed previously as spirit beings. This includes Jesus.

This is very similar the gnostic belief. They based their belief in reincarnation of these things. That all souls were created on the 6th day of creation and then God rested. So that all human souls have preexisted before they were put into bodies of flesh and will continue to be put into bodies of flesh until they have reached spiritual purity and are fit for heaven.

Preexistence is a common theme in some Early Christian writings. Origen and the early St. Augustine are two examples. M does not see being as cyclic. There are no multiple tries as it were. In that sense M may agree with Nietzsche in his "myth of eternal return".

Very gnostic. Does M teach that there is a "forgetfulness" or "sleep" that is the cause of man not realizing he is of a divine spark? And does M teach that all men have the capacity to become Christ (an anointed one) and achieve the spiritual status of "Son of God".....thereby being equal with Jesus?

M doesn't use Divine Spark vernacular. Such is typically part of a system that divides the material from the Divine: where the one is trapped in the other and needs some escape of sorts. M does see the veil as an essential ingredient for moral action. This forgetting would include a forgetting who one was and what one's potential is.

M takes the Command of Christ "Be ye therefore perfect" literally. Christ is seen as the exemplar. M does teach that all men have the capacity for deification. Theosis is a fundamental aspect of the belief and purpose of existence.

So once a man repents and begins to live a godly life, THEN he will receive enlightenment? That's pretty much what the gnostics believed....with a few minor variations.

I think many, if not most Gnostic systems I have looked at stress gnosis itself is salvatory independent of moral demeanor. Regardless, yes, M would see moral standing as necessarily prior to understanding as it informs understanding.

Just a few more things. Hope I'm not picking your brain clean ;)

I'm amazed I haven't bored you.


In thinking about all of this, do you know any reason why Jesus would tell the unbelieving Pharisees, who had rejected Him, that the kingdom of God was INSIDE THEM? I don't know about Mormon's....but Baptists have always been taught that only believers get the kingdom...so why would Jesus tell those guys that they had it inside them? Got any ideas?

Jesus sounds almost gnostic when He says that.

You'll find this interesting. Mormons use the King James Version but are not inerrantist at all. Joseph Smith went through a fair portion of the Bible correcting mistranslations and other errors that had found their way into the text. When he got to Luke 17:21: "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." he corrected "is within you" to "has already come unto you". If you look at the Greek, the preposition translated "within" (entos) is followed by a personal possessive pronoun that is genitive and plural for "you" (humon). Because of this, some translations go with "among you" instead of "within you" as "among" or "in the midst of" is another meaning of entos and fits with the grammar. This of course changes the meaning quite a bit.

In any case, Mormons are perfectly happy to ascribe Divine potentiality to all, even Pharisees should they embrace truth. Potentiality and actuality are not the same.
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EchoPneuma said:
How did you even know about it...it's not like it's mainstream. Did someone tell you about it?
I came across Gnosticism on the Internet, in an Internet Search I believe, about seven years ago. I had heard someone somewhere mention something about "Lost Books of the Bible" and "Gnosticism" and "The Gospel of Thomas", and it got me curious and searching. I quickly found
"The Gnosis Archive: Resources on Gnosticism and Gnostic Tradition" and several other Gnostic Websites on the subject.

EchoPneuma said:
How do you feel about the biblical command against those types of practices? Calling on the dead and so forth?
God had forbidden those practices in the Old Testament specifically for "in the land which I have brought you" and He explained that it was because they were common practices that had been used in neighboring lands by Pagans, and God would have none of that in his chosen land. God wanted their Spiritual Focus entirely on Himself.

Notice that Hebrew Law speaks against actual contact of the actual dead, it does not refer to the dead as asleep or demons (as some Christians try to claim), but as the actual contact of the actual dead. This is reinforced by the Prophet Samuel appearing to Saul as a Ghost summoned by a Medium, and the Scripture very clearly states that it was the Spirit of Samuel himself who appeared, and he even prophecised Saul's Destruction.

On a higher level, why did God forbid it? Because He wanted the Jewish people to look to Him for everything, all their worldly and spiritual needs, through Mystical Experience and the Words of the Prophets. God knew that the Spirits of the Dead, if they were wicked or had an imperfect knowledge in life or death, could potentially lead His chosen people astray. He probably also worried that they may be informed of things by the dead that He didn't want them to know at that time, kind of like what happened when the Grigori appeared (Genesis; 1 Enoch) and taught humanity all sorts of knowledge God didn't want them to know at that time. "Why look to the dead, when you can speak to God Most High?" I feel that was the true context.

The Israelites in the Old Testament aside from the Prophets were not the brightest sort of people, they would go off worshipping other gods and worshipping golden calfs at the drop of a hat.

Personally, as a Christian not living in the Promised Land, I see the practice of Mediumship in this day and age to be a neutral practice. Various Christian Saints and Christian Mystics (Especially Padre Pio) have had encounters with the Spirits of the Dead that they helped to find their rest. Jesus Christ spoke with the deceased Spirit of Moses on the Mountain of Transfiguration and the Apostles witnessed it. Jesus Christ Himself said, "Touch me and see, for a Ghost hath not flesh and bones as you see I have", which at least proves the existence of Ghosts and Hauntings and such. The verses where Jesus Christ first appeared to the Apostles after the Resurrection, it said, "they at first thought that he was a Ghost". Which indicates the Apostles believed in the existence of Ghosts.

There are Shamans and Mediums whose main purpose is to help the Spirits of the Dead "Cross Over" rather than remaining Earth Bound here. I see that as Noble as opposed to being an evil practice.

I feel it all boils down moreso to intent.

EchoPneuma said:
Much of it does with me too. Can't say why except it's the spirit bearing witness. I don't see any other explanation since I had never even heard of it and had no reason to accept it or believe it. It goes against every interpretation I've ever been taught in the Baptist church and yet it so much of it just rang true in my spirit.
Many people in Mainstream Christian Churches are generally not very open to Spiritual Mysticism and they thus apparently do not open themselves to actually Spiritually Discerning by the Holy Spirit to the degree that persons such as Spiritual Driven Mystics can and do, but rather go more by the Head and their own Personal/Grouped Interpretations of Scripture that they have been raised with or came to accept as being the only valid rigid way of looking at things, and thus refuse to change their views to consider anything else as valid. They are told that the way they were raised or eventually came to accept is the only valid way of seeing Christianity, and none else is, and it sinks in, and to change is fear driven, fear of losing their own salvation to "seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you, for there is nothing hidden that will not become manifest".

EchoPneuma said:
It's funny you should say that. I was just reading Clement a couple of days ago. Even while he was calling Valentinus a heretic he was saying that alot of what he said was true. Interesting.
Yeah, Clement of Alexandria was interesting. He had strong Gnostic tendencies. He spoke of there being a True Gnosis in Christianity. Clement of Alexandria also believed in a secret oral tradition that was handed down through the apostles. (Stromateis 1:11;2.3)

Concerning these secret teachings, Clement of Alexandria stated:

"James the Righteous, John and Peter were entrusted by the Lord after his resurrection with the higher knowledge. They imparted it to the other apostles, to the seventy..." (Outlines Book VI)

EchoPneuma said:
Good insights. I had never really compared them like that, but it does make sense.
Indeed it does.

EchoPneuma said:
What do you feel was lost?
Well, I feel Joseph Smith had an imperfect knowledge of things to begin with, being human, more so around the Nauvoo Period, when he went into rampent doctrinal speculation mode, much of which later turned into official doctrine. I feel he was partially right, but partially wrong, on various "advanced" theological issues. I feel his Spiritually Discernment got weaker nearing the end of his life, possibly due to ego and it all going to his head. The RLDS would agree with me here. I tend to follow the Joseph Smith of Kirtland moreso than the Joseph Smith of Nauvoo, although I do recognize some very awesome theological gems from the Nauvoo period. I feel the Endowment Ceremony was suppose to be, as Joseph Smith said, "Shadows, Types, and Images", of what they Spiritually Represent in the Heavens. Not actual requirements for Salvation and Entry, but Symbols of it.

The Book of Mormon is my primary Spiritual Focus in Mormonism, I absolutely love and adore those Scriptures, it Strongly Resonates as Spiritual Truth to me. There are many Spiritual Mystical Experiences recorded in that Book.

EchoPneuma said:
It really is as if every religion has a thread of truth in it, just called by different names.
Like the Parable of the Three Blind Men and the Elephant?

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]Blind Men and the Elephant, The
by: Author Unknown, Source Unknown
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[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica] [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]There is an analogy to how differently we each understand or experience God in a classic story about three blind men and the elephant. As each of the three blind men are trying to understand exactly what the elephant is like, but experiencing different parts of the same thing.
[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]The first blind man is feeling all over the leg of the elephant and says to the others, "It is like a strong tree." But, the second is holding the trunk, explaining, "It is like an ever changing vine."[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]
[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]Still, the third blind man is running his hands across the large body of the elephant, exclaiming, "No, it is endless, like a wide mountain." [/FONT]
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EchoPneuma said:
Quite eclectic. Bet it's hard for you to find a church huh? Even though I'm a preterist I continue to go to a southern Baptist church where they consider it heresy. I just keep my beliefs to myself. It's not like it's a salvation issue.
I've attended a Roman Catholic Church, an Eastern Orthodox Church, a Pentecostal Church, a Baptist Church, a Mormon Church, etc. I keep much to myself when attending a Church.

EchoPneuma said:
What does a Shaman do? How do you practice it?
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial,helevetica,sans-serif] Shamanism is a world-wide practice; its ancient roots can be glimpsed in the history of every culture.

From the poster Ursulaw on BeliefNet's Shamanism Forum:


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[/FONT][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif] Shamanism is an ancient set of techniques, found in tribal cultures all over the world, that help us do certain things:

- 1. Connect with aspects of reality we aren't ordinarily aware of (often called non-ordinary reality, or NOR);
- 2. Connect more deeply with the Earth, the animals and plants and all beings;
- 3. Connect with parts of ourselves we have lost touch with;
- 4. And out of those experiences, bring greater power and knowledge and healing into our "ordinary reality" lives, for our own benefit and the benefit of others.

Shamanism is rooted in an ancient worldview in which everything is seen as having life, or spirit, or a spiritual dimension. A rock, a tree, the wind, all have spirit, & consciousness -- though not exactly like human consciousness.

We have a natural connection with the consciousnesses around us. By deepening that connection we grow in power and in joy.

In shamanic belief, nobody makes it alone. If you have survived this far, help has flowed to you through your connections with the web of life -- whether you've been aware of that or not.

Though you are connected with all beings, there are certain ones who are your "inner circle" -- certain animals, trees, stones, places, with which you have a particularly deep spiritual kinship. One of the things we do in shamanic practice is to become aware of those special connections and consciously work with them. This helps us in many ways, and allows us to better help others, and besides that -- it is a joy.

As you explore your special connections, it's likely that the first one you will become aware of will be with an animal (or perhaps more than one animal). The animals are very close to us spiritually, and are our natural companions and guides in exploring non-ordinary reality. There are world-wide beliefs in guardian animals or totems or animal allies or spirit friends -- they've been given many names. "Power animal" is one name for your guardian animal or animal ally.

Over time you can also find special plant helpers and spirit teachers, connect with ancestor spirits, etc.

To explore these connections, you need to go into a different state of being, you need to alter your consciousness, so you can experience dimensions of reality that we are usually not directly aware of.

To sum up: A practitioner of shamanism is a person who consciously, voluntarily goes into an altered state in order to explore non-ordinary reality, communicate with spirits (animal, plant, ancestral, and other), and bring back knowledge, power, or healing for themselves and others.
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Orontes said:
Consider the meaning of negative existence. It has an oxymoronic feel to it. Existence is to literally stand out or apart from. It thereby necessarily implies a base from with the standing out occurs. The adjective 'negative' precludes such a base as negative means at its root to refuse. It is at its core a rejection of a thing. In its adjectival mode this would be the denial of the noun it modifies: thus, no-existence. No-existence or non-existence has no causality. Now, I don't think this is actually what V argued for. Rather, I think V couched its metaphysic along more platonic lines. If that's right then, instead of 'negative existence' one would refer to a formal existence. Formal is referring to forms: the eternal verities accessible to mind. The attraction of such an appeal is the forms escape the transience of the world and thereby allow a basis for knowledge claims. This also ties into the notion of emanation as there is a base existence from which a thing emanates.

The M canon doesn't come with any philosophical exegesis. Neither the Bible or Book of Mormon are philosophical texts. Even so, I think M rejection of immaterial existence solves several critical problems a dualist must face. As a simple example: Descartes after completing his Meditations was asked how the soul relates to the body. He suggested the pineal glad. This of course is completely unsatisfactory. If the body is material and spirit is immaterial then no relation is possible. It thus under cuts a fundamental principle of Christendom (a body has a soul). If I were a secular humanist this is one argument I would make against Traditional Christian sentiment. It is an insoluble problem. M escapes this criticism

Yes, I see what you're talking about. Basically M teaches that spiritual "stuff" is still "stuff" nonetheless but of a higher order and therefore unseen. We see it as "since it can't be seen or experienced by the senses that it is wholly spiritual"...ie...but I can see how on a subatomic level how all of reality as we know it could be considered "spiritual". So you believe that God Himself (the Father) is actually made up of atoms and molecules, but "vibrating" at a higher frequency and therefore invisible? Or is that not right either?



I
don't think any other sect of Christendom holds this view. The Neo-platonic influence on Christian thought was fairly pronounced as the Church moved into the Medieval Period. Victorinus, St. Anselm and St. Augustine are three simple examples.
This is a standard position within Mormonism. I'll give you an example from the Doctrine and Covenants (a canonical work in Mormonism: a collection of Modern Revelations from Joseph Smith forward).

" It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance. There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter." -D&C 131 6-8

So these types of things are pretty cut and dried in the BOM. Since we don't espouse to it, we don't see it the same of course. But I respect your views.

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M takes being as absolute and would therefore agree with Parmenides and reject the notion something can arise from nothing.Your question revolves around contingency and necessity. God is typically seen as necessary, as in cannot not be, by definition.
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I think we agree here. We also believe that God is eternal and has always existed and always will exist. He didn't have a beginning, He will not have an end....and He lives in the eternal "present"....meaning He transcends time. So He IS the First Cause of all that exists....but He Himself was not created.

The "method" of Him creating the physical realities are what the Zohar and Sephiroth are concerned with. That's why there is talk about the "veil of negative existence" and the "emanations". Kabbalists surmise that since God is so transcendent above physical matter and so "other" (alien) to physical existence, that He had to emanate from Himself lesser powers to do these things. These "powers" are the sepharoth which comprise the tree of life. ALways remaining in balance and fherefore that is why all the physical laws of nature and physical reality are always in balance. They reflect back on the invisible spiritual balancing of the "forces" of creation.

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He that keepeth
his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth
all things.
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Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be." D&C 93:28-29
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[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]Intelligence is the vernacular in M for this fundamental aspect of self that is particular, self aware and capable of expansion. This standard allows M to see moral action as ultimately amenable to the subject alone and thus God remains untainted by the evils of men. [/SIZE][/SIZE]

By "man" does the BOM means the souls of man? That they were "light and intelligence" and were in the beginning with God? M believes that souls of men were neither made or created? How is that?



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I think I answered this above. To reiterate: there is no source of being. Being is absolute. Maybe I can say this: God is not simply defined into existence as a First Cause or Unmoved Mover. God is not a tautology. Rather, God is the ultimate expression of perfection of being and the arche by and through which progress is possible. Does that make sense?
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Yes, makes sense. I agree with this statement you made....."God is the ultimate expression of perfection of being and the arche by and through which progress is possible."



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[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]M makes distinction between Jehovah and the Father in their personhood. Jehovah is considered the agent of the Father, the God of Israel and source of the law. I don't think V sees Jehovah as the creator of the world. I recall materiality is tied to Sophia and is considered a wrong. [/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]You're right. Sophia is what is connected with the creation of this world in V's view. Her "sparks of divine" fell and got trapped here if I remember correctly. [/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]So you basically believe "Jehovah" is the Son. ie Jesus?


Preexistence is a common theme in some Early Christian writings. Origen and the early St. Augustine are two examples. M does not see being as cyclic. There are no multiple tries as it were. In that sense M may agree with Nietzsche in his "myth of eternal return".

Is there some reason by M says reincarnation isn't possible? I also remember how preexistence was a common understanding among the early church fathers. Origen being a main one. He also believed in reincarnation. He said "every soul enters this life either strengthened by it's past successes or weakened by it's failures". Of course, hundreds of years after he died he was declared a "heretic" and a belief in reincarnation was declared "anathema" by the Catholic CHurch. Before then, Origen was revered and considered a foremost theologian and orthodox.

M doesn't use Divine Spark vernacular. Such is typically part of a system that divides the material from the Divine: where the one is trapped in the other and needs some escape of sorts. M does see the veil as an essential ingredient for moral action. This forgetting would include a forgetting who one was and what one's potential is.

So in M there is a belief in a "forgetfulness" of our potential and where we came from? Does "waking up" from this forgetfulness equal to resurrection like the gnostics taught?

M takes the Command of Christ "Be ye therefore perfect" literally. Christ is seen as the exemplar. M does teach that all men have the capacity for deification. Theosis is a fundamental aspect of the belief and purpose of existence.

Yes, I hate that the mainstream church doesn't take that command literally and believe Jesus said what He meant. I do. I believe we have the potential to be "remade into the image of Christ".

By your phrase "capacity for deification" do you mean we can actually be equal with God? Or that we can partake of the divine nature and be Joint-heirs with Christ?

I think many, if not most Gnostic systems I have looked at stress gnosis itself is salvatory independent of moral demeanor.

There were some who were very stoic and austere and there were some who were libertine. But you a probably right that they believed that the "gnosis" was what God used to bring a soul back to him. I don't know though. I would have to go back and reread some things.

Regardless, yes, M would see moral standing as necessarily prior to understanding as it informs understanding.

So repentance first and then God enlightens? This is in line with the bible. John, Jesus, Peter and John all preached repentance as the prerequisite to entering the kingdom.

I'm amazed I haven't bored you.

Quite the contrary. There aren't many people who I can discuss these things with who understand what the heck I'm talking about. I appreciate your patience.

You'll find this interesting. Mormons use the King James Version but are not inerrantist at all. Joseph Smith went through a fair portion of the Bible correcting mistranslations and other errors that had found their way into the text. When he got to Luke 17:21: "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." he corrected "is within you" to "has already come unto you". If you look at the Greek, the preposition translated "within" (entos) is followed by a personal possessive pronoun that is genitive and plural for "you" (humon). Because of this, some translations go with "among you" instead of "within you" as "among" or "in the midst of" is another meaning of entos and fits with the grammar. This of course changes the meaning quite a bit.

Yes, I have exegeted that passage carefully. It does say "INSIDE you all"...entos primary meaning was always "inside" of something or "within" something. It was only used 2 times in the NT and the other usage was in Matt 23:26 where Jesus is talking about cleaning the inside of the cup as opposed to the outside of the cup. This shows that it didn't mean "among" but INSIDE...as opposed to outside.

I believe He meant just what He said....that the kingdom of God was INSIDE those unbelieving Pharisees. What that means and it's implications are what we struggle with.

In any case, Mormons are perfectly happy to ascribe Divine potentiality to all, even Pharisees should they embrace truth. Potentiality and actuality are not the same.
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But Jesus didn't say that they potentially had the kingdom inside them. He said it was THERE.

I don't think you would be interested in my "interpretation" of what Jesus meant. But if you are just ask.

Thanks for the time spent answering these questions. I am learning alot I didn't know about how M thinks and believes and on what it is based. Surely this can't be a bad thing ;)
 
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cromis

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Skylark1 wrote:
Is the article written by Lance Owens that was published in Mormon Dialogue, titled Joseph Smith and the Kabbalah?
You have to be very careful when using Owens. He is attempting to explain the King Follett Discourse in terms of Kabbalah, but this can be shown to be completely erroneous. This isn't to say that Joseph didn't have any contact with Kabbalah (through Neibaur or some other source), it simply shows that Owens is over-reading the KFD.

I haven't yet produced an official response to Lance Owen's paper - but had Owens taken the time to review the sources on which his arguments depend, it would have helped. He may not have had complete access to the Seixas grammars however, so perhaps he can be forgiven on a few points.

To begin with, in the third part of the on-line edition of the article which Owens wrote (at http://www.gnosis.org/jskabb3.htm ) under the heading:

Kabbalah in Mormon Doctrine: The King Follett Discourse

We get the area where I feel it can cleanly be argued that Owens is wrong. That is to say, that Owens spends a great deal of time going through the proper process - explaining the availability of Kabbalah to Joseph Smith, and so on, but when he gets down to the actual evidence, it seems clear that he has misread it. He writes:
By any literate interpretation of Hebrew, this is an impossible reading. Joseph takes Elohim, the subject of the clause, and turns it into the object, the thing which received the action of creation. Bereshith ("in the beginning") is reinterpreted to become Roshith, the "head" or "Head Father of the Gods," who is the subject-actor creating Elohim.134 And Elohim he interprets not as God, but as "the Gods." Louis C. Zucker, who published an insightful examination of Smith's study and use of Hebrew, notes that this translation deviates entirely from the interpretative convention Joseph had learned as a student of Hebrew in Kirtland. Joshua Seixas, the professor who had instructed Joseph and the School of the Prophets in early 1836, used in his classes a textbook he had written, Hebrew grammar for the Use of Beginners. In the Seixas manual (p. 85), this Hebrew text of Genesis 1:1 is given along with a "correct" word-for-word translation: "In the beginning, he created, God, the heavens, and the earth." Seixas would not have introduced in his oral instruction a translation entirely alien to the conventions of his own textbook. Zucker comments on Smith's strange translation of the verse: "Joseph, with audacious independence, changes the meaning of the first word, and takes the third word `Eloheem' as literally plural. He ignores the rest of the verse, and the syntax he imposes on his artificial three-word statement is impossible."
Owens has made a significant error when he states above: "Seixas would not have introduced in his oral instruction a translation entirely alien to the conventions of his own textbook."

The textbook actually treats the material in Genesis 1:1 in several places, and not consistently either. I will supply links to images in a moment. It is clear however, that this method of dealing with the text is entirely consistent (and not alien) to the Seixas approach. A little later Owens remarks:
In his next step of translation, Smith interprets Bereshith to become Rosh, the "head" or head God. As Zucker objected, orthodox standards of translations do not yield the word Rosh, or "head," from Bereshith. But it was not "audacious independence" alone that led Smith to changed the meaning. A basis for this reading is actually found in the next verse of the Zohar: By a Kabbalistic cipher of letters--a technique used in Kabbalah to conceal deeper esoteric meanings--the Zohar explains that the word Reshith "is anagrammatically Rosh (head), the beginning which issues from Reshith."
In this case, as Owens notes, Joseph breaks the word down in the KFD as follows:

"I want to analyze the word BERESHITH. BE--in, by, through, and everything else; next, ROSH--the head; ITH."

Now, Owens would like for us to recognize in this statement a deconstruction based in the Kaballah. In actuality, this same deconstruction is explicitly articulated by Seixas in his grammar. On page 85 of the 1834 edition of the Seixas grammar we find this statement.

(Hebrew characters represented in transliteration and indicated with _text_):
85enlarge.jpg


_bereshith_ in the beginning. For the prefix _b_ see §9, with note. For the termination _ith_ see §11. See Lexicon _reshith_.

This follows on instructions on page 76 of the 1834 edition of the grammar on how to discover the root of a Hebrew word.
76enlarge.jpg


To find the root.
§101. Divest the word of all its adjuncts, and if three or more letters be left, they are the root;

An exmaple follows in which the root is stripped of prefixes and suffixes.

The reference from page 85 to §11 is noteworthy because it defines the termination _ith_ as a feminine suffix.
21selection.jpg


Gender and Number of Nouns.
[§11. The following terminations exhibit the Gender and Number of Nouns.

_ith_ is listed as "sing. fem."

Now, here comes the next part of the puzzle. The version of the KFD which Owens uses is the Larson text. This site here details all of the original sources of the KFD, as well as the Times and Seasons composite. In this particular case, the version is important. The Larson text removes a couple of words because they do not exist in any of the source texts. Yet, arguably, since they exist within the Times and Seasons composite, there was a reason to include them. This version reads:

"I shall comment on the very first Hebrew word in the Bible; I will make a comment on the very first sentence of the history of creation in the Bible, Berosheit. I want to analyze the word; Baith, in, by through, in, and every thing else. Rosh, the head. Sheit, grammatical termination."

You will notice that Seixas refers to the _ith_ as a "termination". Essentially, this notion of _ith_ as a grammatical termination can also be traced specifically back to the Seixas instruction. Joseph Smith here breaks down the first word exactly as Seixas would have done, in the classroom environment, while searching for the Hebrew word to then look up in a lexicon. The lexical entry however is _reshith_ (includes the termination) and, even though Joseph comments on the _ith_ as a grammatical termination, he continues to use _reshith_ as a complete term - just as Seixas suggests on page 85.

Further, where Owens gets this wrong (and this is following Kevin Barney's arguments in his Dialogue article on the subject), Joseph apparently did not redefine the first sentence in the fashion which Owens argues - his reconstruction is perhaps even more extreme. Owens argues:
"In his exegesis Joseph takes Elohim, the subject of the clause, and turns it into the object which received the action of creation from the first god-image (here called Reshith), just as does the Zohar. Indeed, his words as transcribed by William Clayton, "Rosheet signifies to bring forth the Eloheim," are almost identical with the Zohar's phrasing of the interpretation."
The problem is that _reshith_ is taken to mean (all by itself) "to bring forth the elohim" - and thus by extension, the phrase _beroshith baurau elohim haeretz wahashamayim_ would mean something along the lines of "God brought forth the gods to create the heavens and the earth." This does not resemble very closely Owens's arguments from Kabbalistic literature. It does however resemble closely the later comments in the KFD (from the composite text):
"The head God called together the Gods, and set in grand council. The grand counsellors sat in yonder heavens, and contemplated the creation of the worlds that were created at that time."
So, a few points now in further response to Owens. He writes:
In his next step of translation, Smith interprets Bereshith to become Rosh, the "head" or head God. As Zucker objected, orthodox standards of translations do not yield the word Rosh, or "head," from Bereshith.
This is true - but we have to note that Seixas does exactly this - although he does not translate it in this way. He certainly does reduce Bereshith to Rosh within his grammars. Zucker may not have been aware of this - and certainly Owens does not know this (or at least didn't at the time).

We also have this statement:
As he began his exegesis of the opening Hebrew phrase of Genesis in the King Follett Discourse, Joseph stated that he would go to the "old Bible." In Kabbalistic lore, the commentary of the Zohar represented the oldest biblical interpretation, the secret interpretation imparted by God to Adam and all worthy prophets after him. Joseph certainly was not using the knowledge of Hebrew imparted to him in Kirtland nine years earlier when he gave his exegesis of Bereshith bara Elohim, or plural interpretation of Elohim. Was then the "old Bible" he used the Zohar? And was the "learned man of God" he mentioned Simeon ben Yochai, the prophetic teacher attributed with these words in the Zohar?
The composite text reads near this point:
"I have an old book of the New Testament in the Hebrew, Latin, German and Greek. I have been reading the German and find it to be the most correct, and it corresponds nearest to the revelations I have given for the last fourteen years.
Based on this, and on evidence from the JST, it seems much more likely that Joseph is referring to a German Bible - probably Luther's translation, and not to the Zohar - or any Kabbalistic text.

In any case, I have several issues with Owens, and wouldn't recommend his article as being terribly helpful in answering this question.

Ben
 
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