Question for Mormons

[EchoPneuma]

I have a few honest questions for Mormons. Hope you don't mind me picking your brain.

I've been here long enough to pretty much know what you guys believe. What I've found interesting is that much of what you believe is found in the gnostic writings of the first century. I've done alot of research into the gnostic gospels, Pistis Sophia, Kabbalah etc and it is very similar to Mormon theology in many ways.

Here's my question. Do you know if Joseph Smith was a student of the gnostic writings? Did he study Kabbalah?

 

[Apex]

I have a few honest questions for Mormons. Hope you don't mind me picking your brain.

I've been here long enough to pretty much know what you guys believe. What I've found interesting is that much of what you believe is found in the gnostic writings of the first century. I've done alot of research into the gnostic gospels, Pistis Sophia, Kabbalah etc and it is very similar to Mormon theology in many ways.

Here's my question. Do you know if Joseph Smith was a student of the gnostic writings? Did he study Kabbalah?

Some of our beliefs are similar to early gnostic beliefs but they were accepted among most of early christianity. And I dont think Joseph Smith could of been a student of gnostic teachings. We still dont know much about them and the majority of their writings were destroyed. It wasnt until the Nag Hamadi library that we have begun to learn about them from their own sources.

 

[Alma]

I have a few honest questions for Mormons. Hope you don't mind me picking your brain.

I've been here long enough to pretty much know what you guys believe. What I've found interesting is that much of what you believe is found in the gnostic writings of the first century. I've done alot of research into the gnostic gospels, Pistis Sophia, Kabbalah etc and it is very similar to Mormon theology in many ways.

Here's my question. Do you know if Joseph Smith was a student of the gnostic writings? Did he study Kabbalah?

There's a good chance that he had access to some elements during the Nauvoo period through some Jewish converts who were students of the Kabbalah. I personally doubt he could have had access to any of the gnostic material extant at the time. A couple of articles have been written on the subject - and even some extensive treatments in books. D. Michael Quinn builds some assumptions as does Lance Owens from an article in Dialogue from about 1994.

I would be very impressed if Joseph Smith had the time to study any of these subjects while administering the Church, marrying wives, building temples, moving from state to state, fighting off lawsuits, producing new scripture, training new leaders, speaking publicly, taking missionary trips and lobbying congress. Maybe the days were a lot longer back then.

Alma

 

[jeffC]

I would be interested to see a compiled list of topics Joseph studied. I know he studied german and hebrew, but I havn't heard of anything else. Even just that is pretty impressive for a farm kid with horrible grammar who didn't make it out of the third grade.

I'm no expert, but as I understand it the discoveries at Nag Hamadi and of the Dead Sea Scrolls turned much of our understanding of gnostics and other early Christian views on its head. Many new discoveries have been made.

Actually, many mormon scholars have also noticed similarities between these early christian writings and mormon beliefs. This subject is especially entriging to us because of our worldview. Many will know that we believe "extra" doctrines began creeping into the church even before all of the apostles died. And we have our litany of Bible quotes that support our view. Naturaly, other Christians disagree.

The dicovery of all these ancient writings offers a chance to take a look at conditions during the time in question. A popular assumption goes like this: If mormons are correct and a falling away was ongoing, it would not happen all at once. Going backwards in time one would expect to find doctrines that are similar to LDS teachings; going forwards one would expect the opposite. There are many reputable mormon scholars who have found such trends in important unique mormon doctrines. it almost makes one ask, how did Joseph Smith know so much about those early christians?

In any case, such questions are more interesting than anything else. Combing through historical records in search of tidbits that support our doctrine while ignoring anything that doesn't is hardly scientific. But if you think about it, neither is it avoidable - these groups had just as much heresy as truth from anyone's point of view. What is impressive to us mormons is the volume of correlations that can be made in exactly those doctrines that set us appart from Christian orthodoxy. I don't have the background to assert that these findings mean anything, but I still find such compilations intriguing.


I have plenty of web links that discuss such studies, but as I understand the rules of this forum I'm not allowed to post links? I can PM them to anyone who may be interested.

 

[skylark1]

Is the article written by Lance Owens that was published in Mormon Dialogue, titled Joseph Smith and the Kabbalah?

Below is a portion of it, but this entire article is online.



"By 1842 Joseph Smith most likely had touched the subject of Kabbalah in several ways and versions, even if such contacts remain beyond easy documentation. During Joseph's final years in Nauvoo, however, his connection with Kabbalah becomes more concrete. In the spring of 1841 there apparently arrived in Nauvoo an extraordinary library of Kabbalistic writings belonging to a European Jew and convert to Mormonism who evidently new Kabbalah and its principal written works. This man, Alexander Neibaur, would soon become the prophet's friend and companion.

Neibaur has received little detailed study by Mormon historians, and his knowledge of Kabbalah has earned only an occasional passing footnote in Mormon historical work.121 Neibaur was born in Alsace-Lorraine in 1808, but during his later childhood the family apparently returned to their original home in eastern Prussia (now part of Poland). His father, Nathan Neibaur, was a physician and dentist, who family sources claim, was a personal physician to the Napoleon Bonapart and whose skill as a linguist made him of "great value" to Napoleon as an interpreter (claims perhaps inflated by posterity). Like his father, Alexander became fluent in several languages, including French, German, Hebrew, and later, English. He also read Latin and Greek. Family tradition claims that as the first child and eldest son, his father wished him to become a rabbi, and that the young Neibaur was begun in rabbincal training. However, at age seventeen he instead entered the University of Berlin to study dentistry, and completed his studies around 1828. Sometime shortly afterwards, he converted to Christianity and migrated to Preston, England. There he established a dental practice and married in 1833. In mid-summer 1837, Heber C. Kimball, Orson Hyde, and Joseph Fielding arrived in Preston. Neibaur had been troubled by several dreams about a mysterious book, and his first question for Joseph Smith's apostles was whether they had a "book" for him--which of course they did. He was baptized with his family the next spring. On 5 February 1841 they departed for Nauvoo, arriving in Quincy, Illinois, on 17 April. Four days later Neibaur met Joseph Smith, and on 26 April he notes in his journal, "went to work for J. Smith." Two day later he acquired a quarter-acre lot in Nauvoo, and on 1 June moved his family into their newly complete Nauvoo home on Water Street, a few blocks from Joseph Smith's residence.122

Where and how Neibaur first came in contact with Kabbalah remains a mystery, though a careful evaluation of his history and personal travels offers a few hints. Given his father's position, his childhood in western Poland, his studies in Berlin and his subsequent conversion to Christianity, some contact with a reservoir of Kabbalistic knowledge among Sabbatean or Frankist Jews should be considered.123 If he did indeed undertake rabbical studies in Poland prior to his university education, he could not have avoided some exposure to the subject. That Neibaur brought a knowledge of Kabbalah to Nauvoo has been mentioned in several studies of the period. For instance, Newel and Avery note in their biography of Emma Smith, "Through Alexander Neibaur, Joseph Smith had access to ancient Jewish rites called cabalism at the same time he claimed to be translating the papyri from the Egyptian mummies [which became his Book of Abraham]."124 That he not only knew something of Kabbalah, but apparently possessed a collection of original Jewish Kabbalistic works in Nauvoo, is however documented in material almost totally overlooked by Mormon historians.

In June 1843, Neibaur published in Times and Seasons a short piece entitled "The Jews." The work ran in two installments, in the issues of 1 June and 15 June. As to why he wrote this piece, he states only that his effort was inspired by a talk he had heard Joseph Smith present.125 His essay deals ostensibly with the concept of resurrection held by the Jews. What he discusses for the most part is, however, the Kabbalist concept of gilgul, the transmigration and rebirth of souls.126 The essay is interesting not because of his comments on resurrection, but because of his repeated citations of classic Jewish Kabbalistic texts. In the course of his four-page piece, Neibaur cites over two dozen texts and authors. Of the citations I have been able to identify, at least ten are to Kabbalistic authors or works.127 The tone of the entire piece, and the authoritative use of Kabbalistic materials, suggests Neibaur's respect for Kabbalah.

Neibaur's notations to these Medieval and Renaissance Jewish works illustrates that he probably both possessed the texts and had a general knowledge of their contents. Although transliterations of Hebrew into English remain variable even in modern publications, Neibaur's renderings into English of the titles and authors cited are fairly consistent and accurate to the original Hebrew. The general precision of his numerous citations suggest Neibaur had access to the works he quoted.128 Included among his citations are several "classic" Kabbalistic texts--the most important Jewish Kabbalistic manuscripts circulated between the fourteenth and seventeenth centuries--works such as the Zohar, Midrash Ha-Neelam, Menorat ha Ma'or, Emek ha-Melekh, and the 'Avodat ha-Kodesh, as well as a few rarer documents. Much of the material he cites was available only in Hebrew, and to this date has not been translated and published. By any standard, these were unusual works to possess on the American frontier, and certainly an extraordinary collection of texts to be found in the prophet Joseph's Nauvoo.

Joseph Smith and Alexander Neibaur were frequent associates. Neibaur had been engaged by Joseph a few days after his arrival in Nauvoo in April 1841. During the last months of the prophet's life, both his and Neibaur's diaries indicate that Neibaur read with and tutored Smith in Hebrew and German.129 Given this friendly relationship, the interests of the prophet, and the background of Neibaur--and perhaps even the books in Neibaur's library--it seems inconceivable that discussions of Kabbalah did not take place. Kabbalah was the mystical tradition of Judaism, the tradition which claimed to be custodian of the secrets God revealed to Adam. These secrets were occultly conveyed by the oral tradition of Kabbalah throughout the ages--so it was claimed--until finally finding written expression in the Zohar and the commentaries of the medieval Kabbalists, books Neibaur possessed. Kabbalah was the custodian of an occult re-reading of Genesis and the traditions of Enoch, it contained the secrets of Moses. And it was a subject that Joseph Smith had probably already crossed in different versions several times in his life. Can anyone familiar with the history and personality of Joseph Smith--the prophet who restored the secret knowledge and rituals conveyed to Adam, translated the works of Abraham, Enoch, and Moses, and retranslated Genesis--question that he would have been interested in the original version of this Jewish occult tradition? And here, in Neibaur, was a man who could share a version of that knowledge with him.

Whatever the reasons for the similarities, it should be remembered that the Hermetic-Kabbalistic world view parallels Joseph's vision of God in many particulars. Not only might Joseph have been interested in this material, but he would have noted how similar this sacred, secret tradition was with his own restoration of ancient truth. And perhaps Neibaur, on a religious quest--from Judaism and Kabbalah, Europe and England, to Christianity and Mormonism and a new home in Nauvoo--saw or even amplified that intrinsic sympathy in his explications of the tradition for Joseph.

Certainly the first text Joseph Smith would have confronted was the Zohar, the great heart of the Kabbalah. This is one of the works Neibaur cited repeatedly in his article and, as the central text of Kabbalah, is the key book any individual with Kabbalistic interests would have preserved in his library. Familiarity with the Zohar was a given for a Kabbalist, particularly one with knowledge of works as divergent as those cited by Neibaur, all of which expounded in some degree upon themes in the Zohar. If Neibaur had read to Joseph from any single text, or explained Kabbalistic concepts contained in a principal book, the Zohar would have been the book with which to start. This might explain why in 1844 Smith, in what may be his single greatest discourse and in the most important public statement of his theosophical vision, apparently quotes almost word for word from the first section of the Zohar."


Continued at:
http://www.gnosis.org/jskabb3.htm


Links to Parts 1 and 2:

http://www.gnosis.org/jskabb1.htm
http://www.gnosis.org/jskabb2.htm

 

[Blackmarch]

I have a few honest questions for Mormons. Hope you don't mind me picking your brain.

I've been here long enough to pretty much know what you guys believe. What I've found interesting is that much of what you believe is found in the gnostic writings of the first century. I've done alot of research into the gnostic gospels, Pistis Sophia, Kabbalah etc and it is very similar to Mormon theology in many ways.

Here's my question. Do you know if Joseph Smith was a student of the gnostic writings? Did he study Kabbalah?

Very likely to some degree after his translation of the book of mormon (wouldn't know to what extent though)- By the time he died he had a great deal of doctrinal knowledge, both from revelation, reason, and study.

 

[EchoPneuma]

I would be interested to see a compiled list of topics Joseph studied. I know he studied german and hebrew, but I havn't heard of anything else. Even just that is pretty impressive for a farm kid with horrible grammar who didn't make it out of the third grade.

I'm no expert, but as I understand it the discoveries at Nag Hamadi and of the Dead Sea Scrolls turned much of our understanding of gnostics and other early Christian views on its head. Many new discoveries have been made.

Actually, many mormon scholars have also noticed similarities between these early christian writings and mormon beliefs. This subject is especially entriging to us because of our worldview. Many will know that we believe "extra" doctrines began creeping into the church even before all of the apostles died. And we have our litany of Bible quotes that support our view. Naturaly, other Christians disagree.

The dicovery of all these ancient writings offers a chance to take a look at conditions during the time in question. A popular assumption goes like this: If mormons are correct and a falling away was ongoing, it would not happen all at once. Going backwards in time one would expect to find doctrines that are similar to LDS teachings; going forwards one would expect the opposite. There are many reputable mormon scholars who have found such trends in important unique mormon doctrines. it almost makes one ask, how did Joseph Smith know so much about those early christians?

In any case, such questions are more interesting than anything else. Combing through historical records in search of tidbits that support our doctrine while ignoring anything that doesn't is hardly scientific. But if you think about it, neither is it avoidable - these groups had just as much heresy as truth from anyone's point of view. What is impressive to us mormons is the volume of correlations that can be made in exactly those doctrines that set us appart from Christian orthodoxy. I don't have the background to assert that these findings mean anything, but I still find such compilations intriguing.


I have plenty of web links that discuss such studies, but as I understand the rules of this forum I'm not allowed to post links? I can PM them to anyone who may be interested.

This is very interesting. What are some of the similarities between Mormon beliefs and Gnostic doctrines from your point of view?

I see two glaring ones. Gnostics believed in the divine feminine and therefore believed in a Heavenly Mother. They believed in the power of opposite spiritual polarities of male and female and believed God was comprised of both male and female polarities in balance. So God was both Heavenly Father and Mother in one.

They also believed that Jesus was a man who became the Christ when He was anointed at His baptism and then through His perfect life achieved the status of "Son of God"....and that any man can now look to His example and follow His pattern and also become a "Son of God" hence being equal with Christ.

What other ones do you know of?

 

[EchoPneuma]

Is the article written by Lance Owens that was published in Mormon Dialogue, titled Joseph Smith and the Kabbalah?

Below is a portion of it, but this entire article is online.



"By 1842 Joseph Smith most likely had touched the subject of Kabbalah in several ways and versions, even if such contacts remain beyond easy documentation. During Joseph's final years in Nauvoo, however, his connection with Kabbalah becomes more concrete. In the spring of 1841 there apparently arrived in Nauvoo an extraordinary library of Kabbalistic writings belonging to a European Jew and convert to Mormonism who evidently new Kabbalah and its principal written works. This man, Alexander Neibaur, would soon become the prophet's friend and companion.

Neibaur has received little detailed study by Mormon historians, and his knowledge of Kabbalah has earned only an occasional passing footnote in Mormon historical work.121 Neibaur was born in Alsace-Lorraine in 1808, but during his later childhood the family apparently returned to their original home in eastern Prussia (now part of Poland). His father, Nathan Neibaur, was a physician and dentist, who family sources claim, was a personal physician to the Napoleon Bonapart and whose skill as a linguist made him of "great value" to Napoleon as an interpreter (claims perhaps inflated by posterity). Like his father, Alexander became fluent in several languages, including French, German, Hebrew, and later, English. He also read Latin and Greek. Family tradition claims that as the first child and eldest son, his father wished him to become a rabbi, and that the young Neibaur was begun in rabbincal training. However, at age seventeen he instead entered the University of Berlin to study dentistry, and completed his studies around 1828. Sometime shortly afterwards, he converted to Christianity and migrated to Preston, England. There he established a dental practice and married in 1833. In mid-summer 1837, Heber C. Kimball, Orson Hyde, and Joseph Fielding arrived in Preston. Neibaur had been troubled by several dreams about a mysterious book, and his first question for Joseph Smith's apostles was whether they had a "book" for him--which of course they did. He was baptized with his family the next spring. On 5 February 1841 they departed for Nauvoo, arriving in Quincy, Illinois, on 17 April. Four days later Neibaur met Joseph Smith, and on 26 April he notes in his journal, "went to work for J. Smith." Two day later he acquired a quarter-acre lot in Nauvoo, and on 1 June moved his family into their newly complete Nauvoo home on Water Street, a few blocks from Joseph Smith's residence.122

Where and how Neibaur first came in contact with Kabbalah remains a mystery, though a careful evaluation of his history and personal travels offers a few hints. Given his father's position, his childhood in western Poland, his studies in Berlin and his subsequent conversion to Christianity, some contact with a reservoir of Kabbalistic knowledge among Sabbatean or Frankist Jews should be considered.123 If he did indeed undertake rabbical studies in Poland prior to his university education, he could not have avoided some exposure to the subject. That Neibaur brought a knowledge of Kabbalah to Nauvoo has been mentioned in several studies of the period. For instance, Newel and Avery note in their biography of Emma Smith, "Through Alexander Neibaur, Joseph Smith had access to ancient Jewish rites called cabalism at the same time he claimed to be translating the papyri from the Egyptian mummies [which became his Book of Abraham]."124 That he not only knew something of Kabbalah, but apparently possessed a collection of original Jewish Kabbalistic works in Nauvoo, is however documented in material almost totally overlooked by Mormon historians.

In June 1843, Neibaur published in Times and Seasons a short piece entitled "The Jews." The work ran in two installments, in the issues of 1 June and 15 June. As to why he wrote this piece, he states only that his effort was inspired by a talk he had heard Joseph Smith present.125 His essay deals ostensibly with the concept of resurrection held by the Jews. What he discusses for the most part is, however, the Kabbalist concept of gilgul, the transmigration and rebirth of souls.126 The essay is interesting not because of his comments on resurrection, but because of his repeated citations of classic Jewish Kabbalistic texts. In the course of his four-page piece, Neibaur cites over two dozen texts and authors. Of the citations I have been able to identify, at least ten are to Kabbalistic authors or works.127 The tone of the entire piece, and the authoritative use of Kabbalistic materials, suggests Neibaur's respect for Kabbalah.

Neibaur's notations to these Medieval and Renaissance Jewish works illustrates that he probably both possessed the texts and had a general knowledge of their contents. Although transliterations of Hebrew into English remain variable even in modern publications, Neibaur's renderings into English of the titles and authors cited are fairly consistent and accurate to the original Hebrew. The general precision of his numerous citations suggest Neibaur had access to the works he quoted.128 Included among his citations are several "classic" Kabbalistic texts--the most important Jewish Kabbalistic manuscripts circulated between the fourteenth and seventeenth centuries--works such as the Zohar, Midrash Ha-Neelam, Menorat ha Ma'or, Emek ha-Melekh, and the 'Avodat ha-Kodesh, as well as a few rarer documents. Much of the material he cites was available only in Hebrew, and to this date has not been translated and published. By any standard, these were unusual works to possess on the American frontier, and certainly an extraordinary collection of texts to be found in the prophet Joseph's Nauvoo.

Joseph Smith and Alexander Neibaur were frequent associates. Neibaur had been engaged by Joseph a few days after his arrival in Nauvoo in April 1841. During the last months of the prophet's life, both his and Neibaur's diaries indicate that Neibaur read with and tutored Smith in Hebrew and German.129 Given this friendly relationship, the interests of the prophet, and the background of Neibaur--and perhaps even the books in Neibaur's library--it seems inconceivable that discussions of Kabbalah did not take place. Kabbalah was the mystical tradition of Judaism, the tradition which claimed to be custodian of the secrets God revealed to Adam. These secrets were occultly conveyed by the oral tradition of Kabbalah throughout the ages--so it was claimed--until finally finding written expression in the Zohar and the commentaries of the medieval Kabbalists, books Neibaur possessed. Kabbalah was the custodian of an occult re-reading of Genesis and the traditions of Enoch, it contained the secrets of Moses. And it was a subject that Joseph Smith had probably already crossed in different versions several times in his life. Can anyone familiar with the history and personality of Joseph Smith--the prophet who restored the secret knowledge and rituals conveyed to Adam, translated the works of Abraham, Enoch, and Moses, and retranslated Genesis--question that he would have been interested in the original version of this Jewish occult tradition? And here, in Neibaur, was a man who could share a version of that knowledge with him.

Whatever the reasons for the similarities, it should be remembered that the Hermetic-Kabbalistic world view parallels Joseph's vision of God in many particulars. Not only might Joseph have been interested in this material, but he would have noted how similar this sacred, secret tradition was with his own restoration of ancient truth. And perhaps Neibaur, on a religious quest--from Judaism and Kabbalah, Europe and England, to Christianity and Mormonism and a new home in Nauvoo--saw or even amplified that intrinsic sympathy in his explications of the tradition for Joseph.

Certainly the first text Joseph Smith would have confronted was the Zohar, the great heart of the Kabbalah. This is one of the works Neibaur cited repeatedly in his article and, as the central text of Kabbalah, is the key book any individual with Kabbalistic interests would have preserved in his library. Familiarity with the Zohar was a given for a Kabbalist, particularly one with knowledge of works as divergent as those cited by Neibaur, all of which expounded in some degree upon themes in the Zohar. If Neibaur had read to Joseph from any single text, or explained Kabbalistic concepts contained in a principal book, the Zohar would have been the book with which to start. This might explain why in 1844 Smith, in what may be his single greatest discourse and in the most important public statement of his theosophical vision, apparently quotes almost word for word from the first section of the Zohar."


Continued at:
http://www.gnosis.org/jskabb3.htm


Links to Parts 1 and 2:

http://www.gnosis.org/jskabb1.htm
http://www.gnosis.org/jskabb2.htm

Thanks. I'll give it a look.

 

[Eteponge]

"And he gave many honours to those who had worshipped him. And he exalted them over those who had opposed him and withstood him. And he spread out the land on the right side into many lands. And he made them each into ranks, and each into aeons, and each into worlds, and each into heavens, and each into firmaments, and each into places, and each into spaces. And he appointed laws for them. He gave to them commandments: "Abide in my word and I will give to you eternal life '. And I will send you powers. And I will strengthen you with spirits of power, and I will give you authority as you will.

And no one will prevent you in what you wish. And you will beget for yourselves aeons and worlds and heavens, (so that) the intelligible spirits come and dwell in them. And you will become gods, and you will know that you are from God, and you will see him, that he is God within you, And he will dwell in your aeon." And the Lord of the All said these words to them. And he withdrew from them and concealed himself from them '." [The Untitled Gnostic Text] (Bruce Codex)

Oh, I would say so.

Also, the Signs & Tokens & Passwords used in the Mormon Temple are found within Ancient Jewish & Early Christian Writings...

Mormon Temple Rituals and the Mormon Temple Endowment are based upon Ancient Jewish and Early Christian ordinances and rites and ceremonies. Washings, Anointings, Blessings, and Sealings are all a part of the Old & New Testaments.

Ancient Jews and Early Christians taught Hand Signs of Recognition, Ritual Handclasps, and Passwords in order to pass by the Angels standing as Sentinels at the Gates of each of the Progressive Levels of Heaven.

Early Jewish/Early Christian Sources: (Containing Brief Excerpted Quotations from the FAIR LDS Article "Early Christian & Jewish Rituals Related to Temple Practices")

The 1st & 2nd Books of Jeu/Ieou and The Pistis Sophia describe how Jesus instructed the apostles regarding the seals, names, and ciphers (hand-signs) they must use in order to prompt the "watchers" or guardians of the various heavens to open the veils and allow them entry.

In the Gospel of Philip it is said, "The Lord revealed unto me what the soul must say as it goeth up into heaven, and how it must answer each of the powers above." The initiates in [the Acts of John] have entered into the godhead, fused with it. The voice of the mystery god imparts unto them the symbols, the marks of recognition and passwords . . .

In the Apocalypse of Paul, we find the apostle encountering angels at the gate of each of the ten heavens, who open to him because he was accompanied by the Holy Spirit. When he arrived at the seventh heaven, he encountered an old man who interrogated him. The Spirit instructed the apostle, "Give him the sign that you have, and he will open for you.' And then I gave him the sign . . . and then the seventh heaven opened."

A similar story is found in the account of the vision attributed to the prophet Isaiah. We learn that Jesus had to give passwords to angels while descending through the seven heavens to be born on earth.

Jewish lore has similar beliefs. In Hekalot Rabbati, the adept passes through the seven doors of the seven heavenly temples, past angels whose name he must give, while presenting a seal, in order to enter the presence of God. The names and seals given to the angels are also mentioned in 3 Enoch.

Even the Bible notes (Revelation 21:12- 13) that twelve angels guard the twelve gates of the Heavenly Jerusalem.

The role of the heavenly sentinels, often called "thrones" because they are sometimes described as sitting on thrones, is noted in the Apocalypse of Elijah:

"The Lord said, 'I will write my name upon their forehead and I will seal their right hand, and they will not hunger or thirst. Neither will the son of lawlessness prevail over them, nor will the thrones hinder them, but they will walk with the angels up to my city.' Now, as for the sinners, they will be shamed and they will not pass by the thrones, but the thrones of death will seize them and rule over them because the angels will not agree with them." (Apocalypse of Elijah 1:7-11)

These ascension narratives often included ritual handclasps, such as were included in the Christian Gnostic, Jewish Gnostic, and Greek mysteries. Whoever was being conducted through the heavens was lifted along after grasping the right hand of the guiding angel or God.

For example, in the Gospel of Nicodemus, Jesus descends into Hades after His death, grasps the right hand of Adam, and leads him to paradise with all the saints following:

"And the Lord . . . took the right hand of Adam and went up out of hell, and all the saints followed him. . . . He went therefore into paradise holding our forefather by the hand, and delivered him, and all the righteous, unto Michael the archangel."

A similar occurrence was also described in 1 Enoch:

"And the angel Michael, . . . seizing me by my right hand and lifting me up, led me out into all the secrets of mercy; and he showed me all the secrets of righteousness."

The clasping of hands while revealing secrets is known from a number of early documents. In the Second Apocalypse of James, Jesus tells the apostle that he would reveal things to him, then told him "stretch out your [hand]. Now, take hold of me."

In connection with the ritual enactment of the heavenly ascent, it is also interesting to note that certain Gnostic ascension narratives also contained ritual handclasps. For example, in one Manichean narrative, the Primeval Man is drawn up to heaven by celestial messengers:

"The Living Spirit, who was accompanied by the Mother of Life, extended his right hand to Primeval Man. The latter seized it and thus was drawn up out of the depths of the world of darkness. Together with the Mother of Life and the Living Spirit he rose up and up, soared like victorious light out of darkness, till he was returned to the paradise of light, his celestial home, where his kin awaited him."

"The right hand of fellowship" [dexias koinoas didonai tini] is given "as a sign of friendship and trust." (Galatians 2:9)

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Revelation 3:12)

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it]." (Revelation 2:17)

 

[Deraj]

I have a few honest questions for Mormons. Hope you don't mind me picking your brain.

I've been here long enough to pretty much know what you guys believe. What I've found interesting is that much of what you believe is found in the gnostic writings of the first century. I've done alot of research into the gnostic gospels, Pistis Sophia, Kabbalah etc and it is very similar to Mormon theology in many ways.

Here's my question. Do you know if Joseph Smith was a student of the gnostic writings? Did he study Kabbalah?

As you say, many of our doctrines are like those in Gnostic writings. I don't think this is because Joseph Smith studied them as he was a farm boy and up until he restored the Church and received the BoM and other scripture/revelation, he didn't study much other than the Bible, as the Gnostic writings were not as well known or studied at the time of the organisation of the Church in the mid 1800s. Rather, I believe that our doctrines are similar, because they are true and were received through revelation.

 

[Breetai]

Some of our beliefs are similar to early gnostic beliefs but they were accepted among most of early christianity.

"Most of"...? :rolls eyes:

It was also proclaimed as heresy in early Christianity, and still is today.

-Breetai out-

 

[jeffC]

"Most of"...? :rolls eyes:

It was also proclaimed as heresy in early Christianity, and still is today.

-Breetai out-

I think you're missing the point. Of course the groups were heretics - nobody doubts that. A central mormon teaching is that all christian groups had heretical teachings intermingled with true teachings by the end of the second century. All of these groups called the others heretics. What you know as orthodox christianity survived because it found favor with the powerful Roman empire. The Nicene creed was established more because emperor Theodosius in 381 said "you will believe in the Nicene Creed or I will kill you," than because there was unanimous agreement between all bishops involved. Just a few decades prior, Arianism had the support of the Emperor and seemed poised to become established doctrine; but for shifting political winds, orthodox doctrines today could be much different.

The real point is that these are views radically different from modern orthodox Christianity and there's no way Joseph Smith could have known about many of them or of their prevelence among the earliest Christians. So it is interesting that some of them form central pillars in Mormonism.

 

[Breetai]

The real point is that these are views radically different from modern orthodox Christianity and there's no way Joseph Smith could have known about many of them or of their prevelence among the earliest Christians. So it is interesting that some of them form central pillars in Mormonism.

Sure there is. It's not like gnostic beliefs have been a rare thing.

Buddism also shares many of the same beliefs as "early Christianity", but that doesn't mean those beliefs have truth to them.

 

[Apex]

The real point is that these are views radically different from modern orthodox Christianity and there's no way Joseph Smith could have known about many of them or of their prevelence among the earliest Christians. So it is interesting that some of them form central pillars in Mormonism.

Infact most of Gnostic beliefs were almost completley unknown untill the Nag Hammadi Library.

 

[EchoPneuma]

"And he gave many honours to those who had worshipped him. And he exalted them over those who had opposed him and withstood him. And he spread out the land on the right side into many lands. And he made them each into ranks, and each into aeons, and each into worlds, and each into heavens, and each into firmaments, and each into places, and each into spaces. And he appointed laws for them. He gave to them commandments: "Abide in my word and I will give to you eternal life '. And I will send you powers. And I will strengthen you with spirits of power, and I will give you authority as you will.

And no one will prevent you in what you wish. And you will beget for yourselves aeons and worlds and heavens, (so that) the intelligible spirits come and dwell in them. And you will become gods, and you will know that you are from God, and you will see him, that he is God within you, And he will dwell in your aeon." And the Lord of the All said these words to them. And he withdrew from them and concealed himself from them '." [The Untitled Gnostic Text] (Bruce Codex)

Oh, I would say so.

Also, the Signs & Tokens & Passwords used in the Mormon Temple are found within Ancient Jewish & Early Christian Writings...

Mormon Temple Rituals and the Mormon Temple Endowment are based upon Ancient Jewish and Early Christian ordinances and rites and ceremonies. Washings, Anointings, Blessings, and Sealings are all a part of the Old & New Testaments.

Ancient Jews and Early Christians taught Hand Signs of Recognition, Ritual Handclasps, and Passwords in order to pass by the Angels standing as Sentinels at the Gates of each of the Progressive Levels of Heaven.

Early Jewish/Early Christian Sources: (Containing Brief Excerpted Quotations from the FAIR LDS Article "Early Christian & Jewish Rituals Related to Temple Practices")

The 1st & 2nd Books of Jeu/Ieou and The Pistis Sophia describe how Jesus instructed the apostles regarding the seals, names, and ciphers (hand-signs) they must use in order to prompt the "watchers" or guardians of the various heavens to open the veils and allow them entry.

In the Gospel of Philip it is said, "The Lord revealed unto me what the soul must say as it goeth up into heaven, and how it must answer each of the powers above." The initiates in [the Acts of John] have entered into the godhead, fused with it. The voice of the mystery god imparts unto them the symbols, the marks of recognition and passwords . . .

In the Apocalypse of Paul, we find the apostle encountering angels at the gate of each of the ten heavens, who open to him because he was accompanied by the Holy Spirit. When he arrived at the seventh heaven, he encountered an old man who interrogated him. The Spirit instructed the apostle, "Give him the sign that you have, and he will open for you.' And then I gave him the sign . . . and then the seventh heaven opened."

A similar story is found in the account of the vision attributed to the prophet Isaiah. We learn that Jesus had to give passwords to angels while descending through the seven heavens to be born on earth.

Jewish lore has similar beliefs. In Hekalot Rabbati, the adept passes through the seven doors of the seven heavenly temples, past angels whose name he must give, while presenting a seal, in order to enter the presence of God. The names and seals given to the angels are also mentioned in 3 Enoch.

Even the Bible notes (Revelation 21:12- 13) that twelve angels guard the twelve gates of the Heavenly Jerusalem.

The role of the heavenly sentinels, often called "thrones" because they are sometimes described as sitting on thrones, is noted in the Apocalypse of Elijah:

"The Lord said, 'I will write my name upon their forehead and I will seal their right hand, and they will not hunger or thirst. Neither will the son of lawlessness prevail over them, nor will the thrones hinder them, but they will walk with the angels up to my city.' Now, as for the sinners, they will be shamed and they will not pass by the thrones, but the thrones of death will seize them and rule over them because the angels will not agree with them." (Apocalypse of Elijah 1:7-11)

These ascension narratives often included ritual handclasps, such as were included in the Christian Gnostic, Jewish Gnostic, and Greek mysteries. Whoever was being conducted through the heavens was lifted along after grasping the right hand of the guiding angel or God.

For example, in the Gospel of Nicodemus, Jesus descends into Hades after His death, grasps the right hand of Adam, and leads him to paradise with all the saints following:

"And the Lord . . . took the right hand of Adam and went up out of hell, and all the saints followed him. . . . He went therefore into paradise holding our forefather by the hand, and delivered him, and all the righteous, unto Michael the archangel."

A similar occurrence was also described in 1 Enoch:

"And the angel Michael, . . . seizing me by my right hand and lifting me up, led me out into all the secrets of mercy; and he showed me all the secrets of righteousness."

The clasping of hands while revealing secrets is known from a number of early documents. In the Second Apocalypse of James, Jesus tells the apostle that he would reveal things to him, then told him "stretch out your [hand]. Now, take hold of me."

In connection with the ritual enactment of the heavenly ascent, it is also interesting to note that certain Gnostic ascension narratives also contained ritual handclasps. For example, in one Manichean narrative, the Primeval Man is drawn up to heaven by celestial messengers:

"The Living Spirit, who was accompanied by the Mother of Life, extended his right hand to Primeval Man. The latter seized it and thus was drawn up out of the depths of the world of darkness. Together with the Mother of Life and the Living Spirit he rose up and up, soared like victorious light out of darkness, till he was returned to the paradise of light, his celestial home, where his kin awaited him."

"The right hand of fellowship" [dexias koinoas didonai tini] is given "as a sign of friendship and trust." (Galatians 2:9)

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Revelation 3:12)

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it]." (Revelation 2:17)

Yes, these are some of the things I was talking about as well. Are you Mormon? Is that how you have correlated these similarities...or are you a Gnostic?

What did you think of Pistis Sophia?

 

[EchoPneuma]

As you say, many of our doctrines are like those in Gnostic writings. I don't think this is because Joseph Smith studied them as he was a farm boy and up until he restored the Church and received the BoM and other scripture/revelation, he didn't study much other than the Bible, as the Gnostic writings were not as well known or studied at the time of the organisation of the Church in the mid 1800s. Rather, I believe that our doctrines are similar, because they are true and were received through revelation.

Thanks Deraj. I appreciate your input. You do realize however that there are also Gnostic beliefs that run totally counter to Mormon theology. Do Mormons believe in reincarnation?

Also, Gnostics taught that there was no need at all for any type of institutionalized church or organization....that all TRUE worship was done within a person's own soul between them and God alone....and that God alone would enlighten them. (This is where I myself have agreement with them) based on what Jesus and John say.

This runs totally contrary to Mormon practice.

 

[Orontes]

Buddism also shares many of the same beliefs as "early Christianity", but that doesn't mean those beliefs have truth to them.

Hello Breetai,

Your avatar looks pretty scary. What are you thinking of in the above?

 

[EchoPneuma]

"Most of"...? :rolls eyes:

It was also proclaimed as heresy in early Christianity, and still is today.

-Breetai out-

Yes Breetai, we're aware of that. Let's not get into any negative stuff ok? I'm simply looking for input from Mormons about their religion and it's similarities with Gnosticism and Kabbalah.

If you want to believe it's all heresy and evil, that is fine.

 

[Orontes]

EchoPneuma,

I think this is an interesting question, but given Gnosticism covers such a wide array of positions, it's difficult to come to terms with in a meaningful way. There are over 70 identifiable Gnostic sects. The parameters could go from Simon Magus to Marcion to Valentinius to Clement of Alexandria. Do you have a particular version of Gnosticism you are thinking of? If you are thinking in the most general terms then there are noteable differences.

 

[Eteponge]

Yes, these are some of the things I was talking about as well. Are you Mormon? Is that how you have correlated these similarities...or are you a Gnostic?

What did you think of Pistis Sophia?

I'm a Judeo-Christian Mystic who draws heavily from the Valentinian, Kabbalistic, Quaker, and Early Mormon Mysticism Traditions.

I find the Pistis Sophia to be very interesting.