Question for Jehovah's witnesses

[liljon]

The trinity was here before nicea.

 

[oskar]

Well, then you must believe that GOD is NOT complex and is a simple entity to fully comprehend.

For me, God is an intelligent being that has no limits in whatever respect you consider Him. He has no beginning nor end, He lives outside time and place and he cannot be grasped fully by the limited human mind and imagination. As for the creation, I like to use the following words: "God spent one half of His eternal life contemplating and preparing for His act of creation and now He is spending the other half of eternity in the act of creating things and living creatures."

The beginning of his creation was a being called Wisdom (see Proverbs), or Logos (see John), or the first-born Son of God, or Arch-angel, or Michael, and later also Jesus Christ. He was born (or created) into a spiritual space called Heaven. It was God´s pleasure to imprint His mind to this being and make it a true image of His Own.

Jesus knew all thoughts and plans of His Father and through Him all these creative plan were fulfilled. That means He created the hosts of angels who reside in the Heavens. And Jesus also created man on the earth. God served Jesus, Jesus served his brothers angles, angels served man on the earth. The higher a being was, the more it served to those subordinated (this is a principle Jesus was talking about).

I do not know how long it took exactly but it is sure that one of the angles (the Morning Star, or Lucifer) got corrupted in his mind and he also took down the first human couple with himself by seducing them to experiment with their bodies (sex) and to refrain from eating from the tree of life in the Eden (figuratively: from relying on God in every moment of their lives). The expulsion from Eden followed and man lost his life.

And that is the situation in which we are now. Maybe we are a little further because that Logos from the Heaven came to the earth and lived among his nation, educated His disciples to spread the new faith and the new teaching and to convert as much peaple as possible. After He was crucified He returned to the Heaven to the right of His Father to prepare places for His brethren-Christians in heavens. He is now waiting until God His Father announces the end of this era and the beginning of the Day of Judgement.

If I take Bible as the only book that reveals anything true about God, then there is a lot of purposeful personification and anthropomorphism to describe Gods characteristics, much of which is borrowed from human nature (e.g. wrath). But the Bible was not written as a compendium of theology, it was written after man´s fall and from the perspective of the fall. It is a handbook with a description of how human and celestial things will be restored and rectified. As such, the whole Bible has a prophetical meaning in that it tells about the Last Day of Judgement which is to come in the future and which is the turning point of human and celestial history. All things written in the Bible will fulfill on that Day.

Where does "Trinity" fit in this picture? There is no place for such a misleading idea.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

Where does "Trinity" fit in this picture? There is no place for such a misleading idea.

It doesn't fit into your picture. That doesn't mean it cannot fit into the pictures that other Christian traditions have.

Rob

 

[The Gregorian]

Lot of misconceptions here:

I've done a lot of research on what different people think the trinity is, here are the two most common ones I've seen:

1: God, Jesus and the holy spirit are three seperate beings who inhabit one body.
2: One entity changes forms between "God" "Jesus" and "the holy spirit" therefore being one entity in three bodies.

Problem is... no one can pick... Depending on what we're talking about people say that Jesus is God when God left heaven to become Jesus, then when Jesus went back to heaven, he became God again.... But why did Jesus pray to himself?

Fact is... no where in the bible does Jesus EVER claim to be God, or be equal to God. Read these two scriptures, and please explain (both of them). (for the record I went to crosswalk.com and am quoting out of "the bible in basic english" I figured that would be pretty neutral, I have no idea who wrote it, but it seems to be in modern english. If you doubt the translation ask and I'll quote it from any other translation I can find.)


John 14:28 "Keep in mind how I said to you, I go away and come to you again. If you had love for me you would be glad, because I am going to the Father: for the Father is greater than I."

John 17:20 My prayer is not for them only, but for all who will have faith in me through their word; 21 May they all be one! Even as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, so let them be in us, so that all men may come to have faith that you sent me. 22 And the glory which you have given to me I have given to them, so that they may be one even as we are one; 23 I in them, and you in me, so that they may be made completely one, and so that it may become clear to all men that you have sent me and that they are loved by you as I am loved by you. 24 Father, it is my desire that these whom you have given to me may be by my side where I am, so that they may see my glory which you have given to me, because you had love for me before the world came into being. 25 Father of righteousness, I have knowledge of you, though the world has not; and to these it is clear that you sent me;

First Verse 21 Jesus says "you, Father, are in me and I am in you" The Father and Son are one. But keep reading: "So let them be in us." This means that all those who have faith in Jesus' teachings are one with Jesus and God "Even as" they are one with each other. So if Jesus is one with God, so are we. To assume Jesus is saying that he actually IS God is to assume that all of us who share the faith are also God. This is a very dangerous assumption.

One theory is that while Jesus was on earth, he was separate from God, but before he came and after he was killed, he was/became again an actual part of God, but read verse 24. "you had love for me before the world came into being." Unless Jesus is saying that God had love for himself, he is meaning one entity had love for another entity. We know that "having love for one's self" is usually in the context of selfishness, and other such "works of the flesh." God certainly would not go around proclaiming that sort of thing.

Another thing this section brings up multiple times is the fact that God sent Jesus: verse 22 "the glory which you have given to me," verse 23 "so that it may become clear to all men that you have sent me," verse 24 "my glory which you have given to me," and verse 25 "to these it is clear that you sent me." One cannot send one's self. If God was in fact also Jesus, he would have said "I left heaven for earth." Instead Jesus takes a roll underneath his father saying over and over that he was sent, not that he left on his own accord. Here are some more verses to back up the fact that he was actually sent.

 

[liljon]

John 14:28 Jesus had become a man
John 17:21-22 Philip 2 says Jesus Gave up his place in heaven and humbled himself. So the Father could Give him glory.
Jesus Claimed his deity in John 8:58 and John 10:36.
In many other cases Jesus is Identified as Jehovah God
John 20:28 He is thomas' God
He is Our God 2 Peter 1:1 Titus 2:13
He is God John 1:1 Mt 1:23
He is not an (created) angel Heb 1-2
YHWH- Isaiah 44:24-Col 1 Heb 1 John1 1 Cor 8:6
Isaiah 40:3 - Mark 1:2-3
Zechariah 14:5- Acts 1:11
Joel 2:28-32-Romans 10:9 1 Cor 1:1-2

 

[The Gregorian]

8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am.He was saying he existed before Abraham not that "he is the one who is called iam"

10:36 Do you say of him whom the Father made holy and sent into the world, Your words are evil; because I said, I am God's Son?read it very closely. Note he didn't say "I am god" he said "I am god's Son" there is a difference. Are you the same person as both your parents? no. You're the same species, you share the similar traits, but you are, in fact, a different person. Also this shows that the father made him holy and sent him to the world. To make someone holy means you have to have authority over the one who you made holy... therefore not the same person. Lastly it says the father sent the son... you don't send yourself... you send other people.

Can someone tell me why people construe: "I am God's Son?" to mean "I am God"

Keep in mind: We are all God's children... but we are not all gods.

 

[repentandbelieve]

It was not my liberty to capatilize. It's from and NKJ. My fave. And it is'nt capatilized in all cases. But in some it is.

But there is something unique about this Angel of the Lord who says, "I will......"

<><

By golly your are right, and thank you for bringing this to my attention. That is something that I had never noticed before. Thanks again.

Sorry it took so long to respond but my computor is still on the blink. I'm having to use my sons.

 

[liljon]

John 10:33

10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?Son of God and God can mean same thing as here. Compare John 8:58 with Psalm 90:2

90:2 Before the mountains existed, and before the earth and the world were formed, even from age to age, You are God.
They knew what jesus was saying so they tried to stone him.
The newtestament is filled with refrences to christ as god explicitly and implicitly.

 

[repentandbelieve]

John 10:33

10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?Son of God and God can mean same thing as here. Compare John 8:58 with Psalm 90:2

90:2 Before the mountains existed, and before the earth and the world were formed, even from age to age, You are God.
They knew what jesus was saying so they tried to stone him.
The newtestament is filled with refrences to christ as god explicitly and implicitly.

I agree liljon. The Jewish Preist and Rabbis accused Jesus of being a blasphemer. "The Light was shinning in darkness: but darkness apprehended it not". ( John 1:5)

The fact that although they could find no sin in Christ the Jews would not receive Him proves that they themselves had no connection with God. " He that is of God", said Jesus, "heareth Gods words; ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God". In rejecting Jesus as the "Son of God" they pronounced sentence upon themselves.

The lesson stands true for today as well. As a flower turns to the sun so that it's bright rays may touch it's leaves, so will the soul turn to the "Sun of Righteousness that heaven may beautify the character with the graces of the character of Christ.

 

[repentandbelieve]

Keep in mind: We are all God's children... but we are not all gods.

So are you denying the divinty Jesus??

 

[CorTortilla]

Quick off-topic question: Are there any JWs on Christian Forms? Or is using the internet Satanic like Christmas and sports?

 

[The Gregorian]

The fact that although they could find no sin in Christ the Jews would not receive Him proves that they themselves had no connection with God. "

I wouldn't put it that far. They were skeptical... the bible tells us to be skeptical, and not trust false prophits, etc. They just simply trusted what they were told by their higher ups that he was not the real thing, over what was really happening. Keep in mind what happened with Jesus and the prostitute.... the example showed Jesus' feet being washed by a woman who was guilty of many many sins.... yet he still went there to give her a chance to realize what she was doing and make a feeble atempt to atone by washing Jesus' feet.... Because it was an honest atempt from the heart... it worked, she was forgiven. I forget which verse, but at one point Jesus said he came not to save those who were already rightous, but to save the sinners. People who already lived like God wanted don't need much instruction.... it's those of us who need a lot of help that Jesus was sent to give help to.

So are you denying the divinty Jesus??

As far as Jesus being YHWH, his father, yes. Jesus Specifically said he was sent by his father, that his father is greater than him... on many occasions he prayed to his father for help... at the end he said he was going to sit on the right hand of his father.... not to BECOME his father once again. Yes, he is a "divine being" similar to God... but I believe there is only one God.... the Father as per:

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]There is for us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we are for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we have our being through him.

[/font] Quick off-topic question: Are there any JWs on Christian Forms? Or is using the internet Satanic like Christmas and sports?

I don't affiliate myself with any sect... I believe that Christians are christians... seing as how Galatians lists both "sects" and "divisions" as works of the flesh... i.e. bad... I don't want to seperate myself from everyone else by labling myself with any sect, or division. However I've studied with JWs, and I can't recall anyone thinking the internet is bad, in itiself. Even my Grandma has AoL... and she's... one of ... the more.... awkward ones. She's the kind of person that puts absolute faith in... what she's told to.... I strongly disagree with fundamentalism like this.

anywho... no, the internet isn't evil at all... there are definitely some evil things on it, just like TV, and ... every other form of.... anything...

also, sports aren't evil either... when I actually went to a JW church I played basketball on a regular basis, and was in the SCA learning to sword fight, heh. nothing wrong with sports. What they do find wrong, and I agree with, is the whole saluting the flag thing before games and what not. The theory is "pledging" your allegance to the flag and the government for which it stands... is to make a promiss to serve that government, no matter what. If two JW's were in two different countries pledging, they might end up fighting and having to kill eachother over a promiss to a man-made government.... JW's won't kill.

 

[True Believer]

Yes there are some JWs who occasionally stop in and look for things of interest to discuss but usually someone who can't stamd JWs jumps in and any discussions become ugly so we have decided to observe and only step in when carification seems neccesary or when asked a legitimate question by someone who truly wants an answer not to argue theology
Agape', TB

 

[monk_fish]

Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society (JW) teach/believe that Michael is the first (and only direct) creation of God. Michael then came to earth as Jesus. Jesus was a created being (and really the angel Michael).

If this is true it seems a little ridiculous no?

 

[repentandbelieve]

I wouldn't put it that far. They were skeptical... the bible tells us to be skeptical, and not trust false prophits, etc. They just simply trusted what they were told by their higher ups that he was not the real thing, over what was really happening. Keep in mind what happened with Jesus and the prostitute.... the example showed Jesus' feet being washed by a woman who was guilty of many many sins.... yet he still went there to give her a chance to realize what she was doing and make a feeble atempt to atone by washing Jesus' feet.... Because it was an honest atempt from the heart... it worked, she was forgiven. I forget which verse, but at one point Jesus said he came not to save those who were already rightous, but to save the sinners. People who already lived like God wanted don't need much instruction.... it's those of us who need a lot of help that Jesus was sent to give help to.



As far as Jesus being YHWH, his father, yes. Jesus Specifically said he was sent by his father, that his father is greater than him... on many occasions he prayed to his father for help... at the end he said he was going to sit on the right hand of his father.... not to BECOME his father once again. Yes, he is a "divine being" similar to God... but I believe there is only one God.... the Father as per:





I don't affiliate myself with any sect... I believe that Christians are christians... seing as how Galatians lists both "sects" and "divisions" as works of the flesh... i.e. bad... I don't want to seperate myself from everyone else by labling myself with any sect, or division. However I've studied with JWs, and I can't recall anyone thinking the internet is bad, in itiself. Even my Grandma has AoL... and she's... one of ... the more.... awkward ones. She's the kind of person that puts absolute faith in... what she's told to.... I strongly disagree with fundamentalism like this.

anywho... no, the internet isn't evil at all... there are definitely some evil things on it, just like TV, and ... every other form of.... anything...

also, sports aren't evil either... when I actually went to a JW church I played basketball on a regular basis, and was in the SCA learning to sword fight, heh. nothing wrong with sports. What they do find wrong, and I agree with, is the whole saluting the flag thing before games and what not. The theory is "pledging" your allegance to the flag and the government for which it stands... is to make a promiss to serve that government, no matter what. If two JW's were in two different countries pledging, they might end up fighting and having to kill eachother over a promiss to a man-made government.... JW's won't kill.

Hello Gregorian. I agree with with much of what you said. But to say that the Pharisees, or Jewish people in general, were "skeptical" of Jesus is an understatement. When Pilate ask them "Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus the mob answered "Release unto us Barabass!" In making this choice they accepted a robber and murderer over one who Pilate said "I bring him forth to you, that ye may know that I find no fault in him".