Question for creationist and "evolutionists"

[OldWiseGuy]

Our morals can then be rebuilt based on what we have learned in the areas of psychology, sociology and philosophy and neurobiology. We will have abandoned all manner of supernatural silliness, except maybe the good ones which we can continue to share around a campfire.

Our 'morals' is the entire subject of religion. Morals reside in the 'none physical' part of the human brain, untouchable by science, but fully accessible by the spirit world (the only explaination for unexplainable behavior). The only way science can alter the morals (read 'behavior') of man is to lobotamize everyone.

 

[Psudopod]

Our 'morals' is the entire subject of religion. Morals reside in the 'none physical' part of the human brain, untouchable by science, but fully accessible by the spirit world (the only explaination for unexplainable behavior). The only way science can alter the morals (read 'behavior') of man is to lobotamize everyone.

Behaviour can be changed with education. That's pretty much what parenting is - teaching a child to modify their behaviour as they grow up. Morals can be changed in adults through discussion and education, but it's harder.

 

[Lillen]

I believe that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord after the seven years in heaven...

 

[Split Rock]

Our 'morals' is the entire subject of religion. Morals reside in the 'none physical' part of the human brain, untouchable by science, but fully accessible by the spirit world (the only explaination for unexplainable behavior). The only way science can alter the morals (read 'behavior') of man is to lobotamize everyone.

Moral behavior is explainable and has nothing to do with any "spirit world." We are social animals and moral behavior is a part of this. In addition you first claim that moral behavior has nothing to do with the physical part of the brain, yet you claim that a simple physical process (a lobotomy) can alter it... this makes no sense.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Moral behavior is explainable and has nothing to do with any "spirit world." We are social animals and moral behavior is a part of this. In addition you first claim that moral behavior has nothing to do with the physical part of the brain, yet you claim that a simple physical process (a lobotomy) can alter it... this makes no sense.

I added (read 'behavior') to make plain what I meant. I believe that you did read that but chose to ignore it. This is not good intellectual behavior.

 

[Split Rock]

I added (read 'behavior') to make plain what I meant. I believe that you did read that but chose to ignore it. This is not good intellectual behavior.

No I did not ignore it, but thanks for the accusation. Why do you claim morals cannot be altered? We learn morals from our parents and society.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Behaviour can be changed with education. That's pretty much what parenting is - teaching a child to modify their behaviour as they grow up. Morals can be changed in adults through discussion and education, but it's harder.

It's hard to teach morality when the definitive source, the Bible, is so deprecated in our educational system, and our homes. The three most valuable and effective tools for teaching morality, that of shame, guilt, and fear are pretty much a thing of the past.

 

[Split Rock]

It's hard to teach morality when the definitive source, the Bible, is so deprecated in our educational system, and our homes.

This is nothing but a biased assertion. Are you claiming that non-Christians have no morals, because they do not use The Bible?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

No I did not ignore it, but thanks for the accusation. Why do you claim morals cannot be altered? We learn morals from our parents and society.

We are a mixture of good and of evil. We are good during the 'day' (metaphorically speaking of when we are watched by others) and not so good when no one is looking. I present all of human history, including the present day, as irrefutable evidence.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

This is nothing but a biased assertion. Are you claiming that non-Christians have no morals, because they do not use The Bible?

The bible teaches that true morality is doing good for others, not just thinking sympathetic or empathetic thoughts about their needs. God requires this of his people, whether or not they zealously want to do it (the third aspect of agape is 'duty'). Secular society recognizes no such requirement.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

The bible teaches that true morality is doing good for others, not just thinking sympathetic or empathetic thoughts about their needs. God requires this of his people, whether or not they zealously want to do it (the third aspect of agape is 'duty'). Secular society recognizes no such requirement.

The Bible also teaches that it is moral to honor kill.

Morals are nothing more than an evolved, agreed upon societal behavior. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Split Rock]

We are a mixture of good and of evil. We are good during the 'day' (metaphorically speaking of when we are watched by others) and not so good when no one is looking. I present all of human history, including the present day, as irrefutable evidence.

I'm not sure how this applies to your assertion that "science cannot alter the morals of man."

The bible teaches that true morality is doing good for others, not just thinking sympathetic or empathetic thoughts about their needs. God requires this of his people, whether or not they zealously want to do it (the third aspect of agape is 'duty'). Secular society recognizes no such requirement.

I don't quite agree with this. For example, Habitat for Humanity, the Peace Corps and Doctors Without Borders are examples of non-religious organizations that do good for others. There are plenty of religious examples as well, but the bible is not a requirement for this.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I'm not sure how this applies to your assertion that "science cannot alter the morals of man."


I don't quite agree with this. For example, Habitat for Humanity, the Peace Corps and Doctors Without Borders are examples of non-religious organizations that do good for others. There are plenty of religious examples as well, but the bible is not a requirement for this.

Are you then saying that the single most destructive plague on human life, that of bad behavior, has been solved? Also, doesn't our code of morals in the West originate mainly from the Bible?

 

[Split Rock]

Are you then saying that the single most destructive plague on human life, that of bad behavior, has been solved?

I have no idea where you got the idea that is what I was saying. Please read my post again.

Also, doesn't our code of morals in the West originate mainly from the Bible?

Western values are often similar to those in the bible, but which came first is debatable. Nevertheless, our morals today do differ from those of the bible, in particular, the O.T. For example, we see slavery as evil today. Also, rape is considered a crime in the West, even if the victim is not married (only a crime in the OT if considered adultery).

Let's look at the Ten Commandments:
1. I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; Do not have any other gods before me....
- In our pluralistic society this is not a crime, nor considered wrong behavior.

2. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name
- In our pluralistic society this is not a crime, nor considered wrong behavior.

3.Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy
- In our pluralistic society this is not a crime, nor considered wrong behavior..

4. Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
- This is normally considered good behavior, but not an imperative in our society.

5. You shall not kill/murder.
- This is considered an imperative in our society.

6. You shall not commit adultery.
-This is considered good behavior, but not an imperative in our society.

7. You shall not steal
- This is considered an imperative in our society.

8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
- This is normally considered good behavior, but not an imperative in our society. If under oath, it is considered an imperative.

9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife
-This is normally considered good behavior, but not an imperative in our society.

10. You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor.
- This is not really considered bad behavior at all in our society.

So, out of the ten commandments:
: 4 are not considered bad moral behavior.
: 4 (or in some cases 3) are considered poor behavior, but are not crimes.
: 2 (or in some cases 3) are considered bad behavior and are punishable crimes.

This demonstrates that while we have some moral commonalities with the bible, there are also significant differences.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I have no idea where you got the idea that is what I was saying. Please read my post again.



Western values are often similar to those in the bible, but which came first is debatable. Nevertheless, our morals today do differ from those of the bible, in particular, the O.T. For example, we see slavery as evil today. Also, rape is considered a crime in the West, even if the victim is not married (only a crime in the OT if considered adultery).

Let's look at the Ten Commandments:
1. I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; Do not have any other gods before me....
- In our pluralistic society this is not a crime, nor considered wrong behavior.

2. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name
- In our pluralistic society this is not a crime, nor considered wrong behavior.

3.Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy
- In our pluralistic society this is not a crime, nor considered wrong behavior..

4. Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
- This is normally considered good behavior, but not an imperative in our society.

5. You shall not kill/murder.
- This is considered an imperative in our society.

6. You shall not commit adultery.
-This is considered good behavior, but not an imperative in our society.

7. You shall not steal
- This is considered an imperative in our society.

8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
- This is normally considered good behavior, but not an imperative in our society. If under oath, it is considered an imperative.

9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife
-This is normally considered good behavior, but not an imperative in our society.

10. You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor.
- This is not really considered bad behavior at all in our society.

So, out of the ten commandments:
: 4 are not considered bad moral behavior.
: 4 (or in some cases 3) are considered poor behavior, but are not crimes.
: 2 (or in some cases 3) are considered bad behavior and are punishable crimes.

This demonstrates that while we have some moral commonalities with the bible, there are also significant differences.

You are conflating behavior and belief (ritual). The commandments are clearly divided into two catagories. The sixth through the tenth deal with behavior alone. Much of western criminal law is based on these five precepts, regardless of their origins. When these laws are broken society breaks down. Turning a blind legal eye to some of these laws, such as adultery, doesn't mitigate the damage done by breaking them. We actually celebrate adultery in our entertainment. Pretty sad. Regarding various OT laws. Many of the 'commands, judgements, and statutes' found there were given specifically to Israel and were in force while Israel was a physical nation. When Israel ceased to be a nation the law ceased as well. In Jesus day the Jews were just a fragment of Israel, and only a fragment of the old laws remained in force. With the fall of Jerusalem and the Levitical priesthood all of those remaining OT ritual laws ceased.

 

[Psudopod]

Originally Posted by Psudopod http://www.christianforums.com/t7511854-3/#post56075707
Behaviour can be changed with education. That's pretty much what parenting is - teaching a child to modify their behaviour as they grow up. Morals can be changed in adults through discussion and education, but it's harder.

It's hard to teach morality when the definitive source, the Bible, is so deprecated in our educational system, and our homes. The three most valuable and effective tools for teaching morality, that of shame, guilt, and fear are pretty much a thing of the past.

The bible is not the definitive source of morality to all people, just Christians. Morality changes across culture and across time-frames. And I’d have to say if you need to resort to shame, guilt and fear to teach morality you’re not explaining it very well. Morality should stand up on its own. If you only teach in this way how can you be sure your pupils are acting in a particular way because they consider it moral, rather than because they are afraid of the consequences?

 

[Split Rock]

You are conflating behavior and belief (ritual). The commandments are clearly divided into two catagories. The sixth through the tenth deal with behavior alone. Much of western criminal law is based on these five precepts, regardless of their origins. When these laws are broken society breaks down. Turning a blind legal eye to some of these laws, such as adultery, doesn't mitigate the damage done by breaking them. We actually celebrate adultery in our entertainment. Pretty sad. Regarding various OT laws. Many of the 'commands, judgements, and statutes' found there were given specifically to Israel and were in force while Israel was a physical nation. When Israel ceased to be a nation the law ceased as well. In Jesus day the Jews were just a fragment of Israel, and only a fragment of the old laws remained in force. With the fall of Jerusalem and the Levitical priesthood all of those remaining OT ritual laws ceased.

Precepts against murder and theft are common through out most, if not all human societies. Why do you claim them for Christianity alone? Why do you claim they originate with Christianity, instead of the other way around? Also, most Christians consider the ten commandments to be binding on them, just as with the Jews. They just selectively ignore most of the others because there was supposed to be a new convenant. I was only discussing the ten commandments for that reason.

 

[Nathan Poe]

You are conflating behavior and belief (ritual). The commandments are clearly divided into two catagories.

Clearly divided by you -- nothing in the Bible itself makes any such distinction.

The sixth through the tenth deal with behavior alone. Much of western criminal law is based on these five precepts, regardless of their origins.

Not necessarily -- it could be that Wesern criminal law is based on the same original source those 6 commandments are based on.

When these laws are broken society breaks down. Turning a blind legal eye to some of these laws, such as adultery, doesn't mitigate the damage done by breaking them.

So what is the damage done by adultery -- or by "coveting," for that matter?

 

[lucaspa]

Something And for TE's like myself and AE's, do you think people will eventually reject creationism or will it be around for ever?

If Christians do their job right and understand their own theology, then creationism will disappear.

However, the problem of creationism is tied up with the problem of the new religion of Fundamentalism. This is a heresy that Christianity is going to have to beat. However, like previous heresies, Fundamentalism (and thus creationism) will linger in small isolated congregations.

IMO, the defeat of creationism will not depend on scientific evidence, but on showing the theological flaws of creationism.

Just curious, we see alot of arguing and debating here on evolution and creationism but is it ever going to go anywhere or change people?

Some people it won't change. Remember there were phlogiston chemists who went to their grave without admitting that phlogiston was wrong. Einstein never admitted to the indeterminancy of quantum mechanics. So we've faced the same problems within science. In those cases we eventually had to wait until the holdouts died. The same may be true of creationism; we have to wait until this generation of creationists dies.

The evidence/arguments right now for creationism isn't enough to convince majority of atheists, or TE's or even other people that accept evolution,

Creationism is a falsified scientific theory. It's been shown to be wrong. Of course any arguments "for" can't convince people, because you can't get around the evidence against.

like with everything else tied to religion each generation loses some of the old baggage from the last generation.

Unfortunately, creationism and Fundamentalism shows this idea to be wrong. Christianity had accepted evolution when the new religion of Fundamentalism revived creationism and added "baggage" to new generations.

 

[lucaspa]

So what is the damage done by adultery -- or by "coveting," for that matter?

By themselves, perhaps nothing. However, adultery has been motive in many murders and coveting is motive for theft, Enron, and the current financial meltdown.

Adultery also has considerable damage done to children whose parents go thru divorce due to adultery.

But for your general argument that our laws are not based upon the 10 Commandments, you can point out that adultery itself is not a criminal offense. Neither is failure to honor your father or mother or coveting your neighbor's property. Theft and murder are criminal offenses but everyone can see how those hurt society without having to have the 10 Commandments.

If you put yourself in the shoes of the society of the time -- a patrilineal one -- then the crime of adultery is plainly seen. It is a crime of property. If property is inherited from the husband, then adultery can result in someone not the husband's child inheriting the property. The inheritance has been "stolen".