Question for Christians

[nohbruhkneel]

Not sure where to pose this question as there are quite a number of various sub-forums so I will ask it here :

What gives you conviction in your beliefs? Why did you choose, and why do you continue to identify yourself as a follower of, Christianity? I mean, specifically. With all due respect, saying "because it's what I believe" or "it makes the most sense to me" is not a valid answer because, well I know that's what you believe, that's why I'm asking you, why. What makes it stand out? What gives you your conviction to base your only life around this one form of thinking, out of an innumerable number of different options and beliefs?

I honestly just don't understand it. All religions seem more or less identical to me, with slight irrelevant variances that have no real bearing on the overall message and primary "rules" for humans to follow.

Example : terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/images/2008/03/11/871765615_54e46924af.jpg

Additionally, with various tenets of Christianity (the approximate age of the Earth, the spontaneous creation of the various species that inhabit it, etc) having been demonstrably proven objectively false by modern science (via carbon-dating and the almost universally agreed upon Theory of Evolution, as two examples), what do you believe gives the Bible any more creedence than any other faith, or lack thereof, that other people have?

I assure will not respond condescendingly, and I am not asking these questions to convert, or to be converted by, anyone, this is coming from an honest confusion, or rather ignorance, I guess, on what makes someone choose one religion over another, other than the obvious "I was raised this way and just stuck with it because it's easy and I didn't want to rock the boat," to put it simply.

Full disclosure : I am an atheist and have never identified myself as a Christian or a follower of any other religion or belief.

 

[Warrioress]

Personally, I've chosen to be a Christian because I believe the bible is the truth in written form. I believe what the bible says. I think the bible has already proven itself as prophetic and reliable. It has endured and cannot be done away with, no matter who may try. What is written there has been occurring and is occurring now before our very eyes.

I believe there was a man/God (Jesus) who came in the flesh to die on the cross for our sins as the sacrificial lamb for the sins of humanity if we will only believe and accept this sacrifice. I believe this because it fits and makes sense when all the pieces of the puzzle are fitted together into one big picture.

I believe because my life has changed since I cried out to God so many years ago and even when I strayed and backslid, God never let go of me and brought me back to Himself. I felt His love and His calling to my heart the entire time that I was traveling away from Him. I always knew He loved me.

I believe because my life is better as a result of believing and the lifestyle I now lead is healthier, happier, calmer, and much more peaceful. It's a wonderful lifestyle to raise a child within and it's very beneficial in a world that is overwhelmed by stress.

Christianity is good for me. Believing what the bible tells me makes me happy. I don't really care what is attempted to prove it wrong because I believe we're in a time where false teachers and prophets are everywhere and their sole ambition is to negate the bible and what Jesus did for the world. Spiritual warfare is definitely occurring and I see this blatantly taking place, all over the internet and the world itself. I believe because the events described in the bible are happening and have happened.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Hi


This is in one way a difficult question to answer, and in another way a very easy question to answer.


The way in which it is difficult is that there are so many good things about Christianity that I love about it and I want to point out all of those things and say "this is why I love Christianity!" But really, though I love those things about Christianity... they aren't fundamentally the ultimate reason I believe Christianity.

A smart man (named Peter Kreeft) once said that the only reason to ever believe anything is because it is true.

All of those other things are good, and I love them, and in a certain sense they contribute to how I know Christianity is true (and how I know which version of Christianity is true), BUT there is one final ultimate reason that I know Christianity is true.

I was raised as a Christian (a different brand of Christian than I am now) but there came a time in my life when I hit the crisis point that most people hit some time where they transition from simply believing what their parents tell them to making their beliefs their own. You have to take responsability for your own beliefs and face the challenges to your beliefs etc.

For me that time was when I was in college (also a common experience I'm sure). During that time I questioned everything I had been raised with.

The reason that I ultimately came through that time still convinced of Christianity's truth, and the reason that I still believe it to this day is because I have met, and known, Jesus Christ.
I could question the bible, I could question creation, but when it came right down to it, I could not deny that I knew Jesus Christ was true.

I have had friends and aquaintences over the years who were Christian but who eventually fell away etc, and it was very clear to me in talking with most of those people that while they had believed in the doctrines and they had believed the ideas... they never really met, or knew the person Jesus Christ. He never become more than an idea to them.

He is more than an idea to me.

I need to clarify too that I'm not just talking about emotional experiences or things like that. I grew up in a church that was all about emotional experiences and one of the reasons I ended up leaving that version of Christianity behind was because I saw the unreality and the shallowness of all the emotional experiences that people relied upon. I've had those experiences, and I've seen many others have them and neither they, nor their results last. I'm not against such things, but they are not a solid foundation for belief.

What I'm talking about is more than just emotionalism or feeling.

As an atheist, I would guess you are almost certainly a materialist in that you probably don't believe there is anything other than the natural world that we can see and touch and smell etc.

You experience the natural world with your five senses, and that is how you know it exists. Of course, as you may be aware, there are philosophical positions that deny the reliability of the five senses and thus they debate that you can even know the natural world exists. Sylopsism is the prime example. Probably the best known comment from philosophy regarding that argument is "Cogito ergo sum" - " I think therefore I am"... that statement was formulated by Descarte because he was trying to prove they he himself existed without reliance upon sensory perception.

Personaly I would argue that pure reason, meaning reason which does not allow for faith at any level, results in insanity. The only philosophical position that relies upon pure reason without allowing for faith in anything (including your physical senses) is sylopsism, and as has been said, the only real sylopsists live in assylums.

But I digress... I assume that you are sane enough to agree that the natural world exists because you can sense it with your five physical senses.

What I would tell you is that reality is not only physical, but that it is also spiritual. Just like there are physical senses that allow you to sense the physical world, there are also spiritual senses which allow you to sense the spiritual side of the world. And, you are not simply a physical being, you are a being which is both physical and spiritual.

I don't mean to suggest that the physical and spiritual are like two seperate worlds... rather that they are both aspects of our reality.

Now, I know you obviously don't agree, and you don't currently see evidence of this spiritual "supernatural" reality. I'm simply trying to explain it from my view point, hoping I can explain it as I see it.

Just as you know the world exists, and you know other people exist because you experience them with physical senses, I know that the spiritual world exists and I know Jesus exists because I have experienced him with my spiritual senses.

The reason I'm going into all that is to highlight the difference between this and mere emotional experience. You know people on a few different levels... you know them because you physically sense them.. you see them, you hear them you touch them etc. you also know them intellectually because you exchange ideas and you can begin to get to know their mind. You also can know them emotionally as you develop feelings towards them and you can share emotional experiences with them.

Likewise, I don't know Jesus simply because I've had emotional experiences, I also know him because I have seen someting of his mind, and because I have sensed him.

I hope that makes some sense

 

[SharonL]

Your being an atheist none of these questions or answers will be of any help to you - only God can answer these questions in your mind.

I have been to several different religions - raised one way - married another - met in the middle to make us both happy - still I was searching for more. I did not find more until I threw religion down and ask God for a personal relationship with Him, my life has never been the same - the Holy Spirit guides me and I walk with my hand in the hand of Jesus and walk in the joy of the Lord. He is my friend, walks side by side with me and the Holy Spirit guides me daily. A beautiful walk with the Master.

 

[Soothfish]

Hi


This is in one way a difficult question to answer, and in another way a very easy question to answer.


The way in which it is difficult is that there are so many good things about Christianity that I love about it and I want to point out all of those things and say "this is why I love Christianity!" But really, though I love those things about Christianity... they aren't fundamentally the ultimate reason I believe Christianity.

A smart man (named Peter Kreeft) once said that the only reason to ever believe anything is because it is true.

All of those other things are good, and I love them, and in a certain sense they contribute to how I know Christianity is true (and how I know which version of Christianity is true), BUT there is one final ultimate reason that I know Christianity is true.

I was raised as a Christian (a different brand of Christian than I am now) but there came a time in my life when I hit the crisis point that most people hit some time where they transition from simply believing what their parents tell them to making their beliefs their own. You have to take responsability for your own beliefs and face the challenges to your beliefs etc.

For me that time was when I was in college (also a common experience I'm sure). During that time I questioned everything I had been raised with.

The reason that I ultimately came through that time still convinced of Christianity's truth, and the reason that I still believe it to this day is because I have met, and known, Jesus Christ.
I could question the bible, I could question creation, but when it came right down to it, I could not deny that I knew Jesus Christ was true.

I have had friends and aquaintences over the years who were Christian but who eventually fell away etc, and it was very clear to me in talking with most of those people that while they had believed in the doctrines and they had believed the ideas... they never really met, or knew the person Jesus Christ. He never become more than an idea to them.

He is more than an idea to me.

I need to clarify too that I'm not just talking about emotional experiences or things like that. I grew up in a church that was all about emotional experiences and one of the reasons I ended up leaving that version of Christianity behind was because I saw the unreality and the shallowness of all the emotional experiences that people relied upon. I've had those experiences, and I've seen many others have them and neither they, nor their results last. I'm not against such things, but they are not a solid foundation for belief.

What I'm talking about is more than just emotionalism or feeling.

As an atheist, I would guess you are almost certainly a materialist in that you probably don't believe there is anything other than the natural world that we can see and touch and smell etc.

You experience the natural world with your five senses, and that is how you know it exists. Of course, as you may be aware, there are philosophical positions that deny the reliability of the five senses and thus they debate that you can even know the natural world exists. Sylopsism is the prime example. Probably the best known comment from philosophy regarding that argument is "Cogito ergo sum" - " I think therefore I am"... that statement was formulated by Descarte because he was trying to prove they he himself existed without reliance upon sensory perception.

Personaly I would argue that pure reason, meaning reason which does not allow for faith at any level, results in insanity. The only philosophical position that relies upon pure reason without allowing for faith in anything (including your physical senses) is sylopsism, and as has been said, the only real sylopsists live in assylums.

But I digress... I assume that you are sane enough to agree that the natural world exists because you can sense it with your five physical senses.

What I would tell you is that reality is not only physical, but that it is also spiritual. Just like there are physical senses that allow you to sense the physical world, there are also spiritual senses which allow you to sense the spiritual side of the world. And, you are not simply a physical being, you are a being which is both physical and spiritual.

I don't mean to suggest that the physical and spiritual are like two seperate worlds... rather that they are both aspects of our reality.

Now, I know you obviously don't agree, and you don't currently see evidence of this spiritual "supernatural" reality. I'm simply trying to explain it from my view point, hoping I can explain it as I see it.

Just as you know the world exists, and you know other people exist because you experience them with physical senses, I know that the spiritual world exists and I know Jesus exists because I have experienced him with my spiritual senses.

The reason I'm going into all that is to highlight the difference between this and mere emotional experience. You know people on a few different levels... you know them because you physically sense them.. you see them, you hear them you touch them etc. you also know them intellectually because you exchange ideas and you can begin to get to know their mind. You also can know them emotionally as you develop feelings towards them and you can share emotional experiences with them.

Likewise, I don't know Jesus simply because I've had emotional experiences, I also know him because I have seen someting of his mind, and because I have sensed him.

I hope that makes some sense

So what do we do when we don't have a "spiritual sense" and don't even know what it is?

 

[Simon_Templar]

So what do we do when we don't have a "spiritual sense" and don't even know what it is?

Good question, and it also highlights one of the other parts of the original question that I didn't really address before, namely are all religions really the same?

This is one of the unique things about Christianity. The OP mentioned that he thought all religions looked basically the same, having slight variations on the same sets of rules to follow in order to earn your reward etc.

In Christianity there are rules, BUT the rules are not the primary point. They are secondary.

The OP correctly identified the central theme of all human religion... you follow a set of rules and those rules lead to reward.

On the surface this looks similar to Christianity because there are rules, and you need to follow them and there is reward.

However, at its core, Christianity is not about rules, but about a person.

In all other religions, that often get compared to Christianity, like budhism, and islam, etc.. there is a great teacher or prophet who came in order to show man the way to live in order to achieve the reward.

In Christianity Jesus Christ did not come to show a way, he came to BE the way. In other words, in Christianity you do not receive because you follow rules. You receive because you know Jesus Christ and he knows you.

So In Christianity you do not receive spiritual life because you follow a set of rules. You receive spiritual life because you know Jesus Christ and you become united to him.

So, when you ask "what do we do when we don't have a spiritual sense, or don't even know what it is?"

The answer is that you seek to know the person Jesus Christ. How do you seek? most simply, you ask.

Jesus left his Church here on earth to be his visible representation and his minister to the world. He is also revealed in the bible. So if you want to seek, it would also be a good idea to read the bible and to go to Church... but again most simply, just honestly ask.

I refer again to Peter Kreeft, who I would recommend listening too if you are interested. People often wonder why God didn't leave, or provide more visible, irrefutable, proof of his existence.
The answer to that question is free-will and love. God does not desire to compell people to believe in him... and really it wouldn't do any good to compell people to believe in him. He wants people to love him.

The demons are compelled to believe in God because they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God exists, yet they don't love him.
Likewise, compelling people to believe by giving them irrefutable proof would not make them love or serve God. It would, however, infringe upon their freedom.

God left enough evidence so that all those who seek him will find him, but not so much that anyone who didn't seek would find him, or would be compelled by such proof to believe.

 

[nohbruhkneel]

Personally, I've chosen to be a Christian because I believe the bible is the truth in written form. I believe what the bible says. I think the bible has already proven itself as prophetic and reliable. It has endured and cannot be done away with, no matter who may try. What is written there has been occurring and is occurring now before our very eyes.

Why do you believe the Bible is "truth in written form" when most of the actual words in it are either either parables/intentionally fictional stories written for the purpose of teaching people moral lessons, or demonstrably false (like say, the Earth being billions of years old and the theory of evolution being virtually proven, thus ruling out that whole spontaneous creation thing?) Why would you take a leap of faith and buy into stories of magic floods and talking bushes, which then cause you to take an even further leap of faith into disregarding all other explanations for our being alive and aware of our existence on Earth, and cause you to believe that you are following the "correct" set of guidelines for life on Earth? I am not saying science has uncovered any evidence which definitively proves Christianity wrong at its most basic level, that would be impossible as there is no way to prove/disprove the existence of God, but most of the claims made in the Bible are provably false, so why do they give you faith that the stuff that can't be proven true or false, is true? I'm not trying to be overly criticial of you as a person I just honestly don't understand that at all whatsoever.

I could understand the Christian faith better if there was some part of the Bible that was advanced for its time, or if it actually did predict anything impressive, but it doesn't, it just doesn't. There is nothing whatsoever in the Bible to indicate that it contains any knowledge or ideas that other people alive at that time couldn't come up with or figure out on their own, so what gives it creedence to you? It isn't the oldest religion or most popular and is not unique in its general messages, so why choose Christianity?

I believe there was a man/God (Jesus) who came in the flesh to die on the cross for our sins as the sacrificial lamb for the sins of humanity if we will only believe and accept this sacrifice. I believe this because it fits and makes sense when all the pieces of the puzzle are fitted together into one big picture.

That last sentence does not say anything at all, it's just words you put together. I was all excited for your answer to my initial topic question only to read some meandering metaphor about a puzzle.

I believe because my life has changed since I cried out to God so many years ago and even when I strayed and backslid, God never let go of me and brought me back to Himself. I felt His love and His calling to my heart the entire time that I was traveling away from Him. I always knew He loved me.

I believe because my life is better as a result of believing and the lifestyle I now lead is healthier, happier, calmer, and much more peaceful. It's a wonderful lifestyle to raise a child within and it's very beneficial in a world that is overwhelmed by stress.

I get that it's comforting and can help people out and remind them to make good decisions, but is that really all it takes to convince you it's real? Do you believe, or do you just tell yourself you believe so you won't have to think about things? Any material benefits it provides are all things you could be doing on your own, no self-deceit required.

Christianity is good for me. Believing what the bible tells me makes me happy. I don't really care what is attempted to prove it wrong because I believe we're in a time where false teachers and prophets are everywhere and their sole ambition is to negate the bible and what Jesus did for the world. Spiritual warfare is definitely occurring and I see this blatantly taking place, all over the internet and the world itself. I believe because the events described in the bible are happening and have happened.

Why would you not care about what people have to say regarding the greatest truth about existence? That's why I'm posting here in the first place, I want my ideas challenged and I want to challenge the ideas of others, for everyone's benefit. It's good to think about things. I don't know how else to put it. I don't think anyone's sole ambition is to negate the Bible, I think their ambition is one of truth and understanding about the world in which they live for the brief time they are here to witness it and be alive. In the search for truth the Bible may be disproved, but I don't see that as an "attack" or a bad thing at all. Just a necessary step toward furthering one's understanding. If above all else you want to continue identifying yourself as a Christian because it makes you feel good that is fine, but I don't even understand how that would work. How can you just manufacture belief? How can you have faith in the ridiculous, when there is no indicator whatsoever that you are on the right track other than it makes you feel good? How can that be the reason? I couldn't be a Christian even if I wanted to. I couldn't trick myself or lie to myself and say "yeah, there's nothing to indicate any of this is real or correct, but I'm going to spend the rest of my life believing it anyway because it makes me feel good to think I'll go to a paradise when I die."

I just don't understand.

 

[Soothfish]

In the search for truth the Bible may be disproved, but I don't see that as an "attack" or a bad thing at all.

How is it not a bad thing? What do you mean by this? There is an enormous amount of injustice in the world. The only way to get through life as a "happy atheist" is to be a complete sociopath. A compassionate person cannot be happy unless the victims of the atrocities will be resurrected and healed. Otherwise, they died in misery, unloved, and forgotten forever. If we are supposed to "move on" then I don't consider that to be an enlightened attitude.

I can fully understand what it's like to be confused about scripture and what it's like to not have an intellectual inclination to believe in God. What I don't understand is the existence of what is called "anti-theism". It makes no sense! In many ways it appears to be nothing more than narcissism, intellectual snobbery, or some form of insidious political activism disguising itself as free-thinking.

If Christianity is false than life is nothing but a sick disgusting game and a joke. Life has no purpose but to play a losing game. Evil has already won. If one were to hold any other opinion then that would demonstrate a lack of compassion for the victims of evil, both in the past and present. Even if human effort stops evil in the future (highly unlikely) then there is still injustice remaining!

If Christianity is false then that is not only a "bad thing" but the worst thing imaginable.

How many people even know that this is happening? Do they go throughout their days "happy" or do they just harden their hearts? BBC News - Where child sacrifice is a business

I just don't understand.

Neither do I...

 

[nohbruhkneel]

How is it not a bad thing? What do you mean by this? There is an enormous amount of injustice in the world. The only way to get through life as a "happy atheist" is to be a complete sociopath. A compassionate person cannot be happy unless the victims of the atrocities will be resurrected and healed. Otherwise, they died in misery, unloved, and forgotten forever. If we are supposed to "move on" then I don't consider that to be an enlightened attitude.

What a ridiculous and offensive argument. That would be like me saying the only reason Christians don't murder and rape is because they're all scared of going to Hell for doing so. Don't you understand how baseless and incorrect an opinion you hold?

So because I am unable or unwilling to lie to myself about some abstract form of cosmic justice being administered to a post-death form of existence that I see no evidence for and hold no belief in, ie "souls," I must be an unhappy sociopath?


There are reasons to not murder and steal that have nothing to do with the Bible or earthly punishment. The very fact that I am an atheist and am able to abstain from harming other people, even when I think I could get away with it, demonstrates that I am able to live as an atheist without being a sociopath.

Compassion is not a religious construct - we as humans are capable of empathy, and compassion, and basic human kindness for reasons that have nothing to do with what we think is the reason for or rules of life.

If anything, being an atheist makes me more equipped to better rectify and react to the injustices evident on Earth, as a Christian may be inclined to sleep soundly knowing that while injustices rage, the perpetrators will "get theirs" in Hell. This is all spinning off of your presumption that it would be sociopathic to not arbitrarily believe in some intricate custom-fitted karma to right human wrongs.

I can fully understand what it's like to be confused about scripture and what it's like to not have an intellectual inclination to believe in God. What I don't understand is the existence of what is called "anti-theism". It makes no sense! In many ways it appears to be nothing more than narcissism, intellectual snobbery, or some form of insidious political activism disguising itself as free-thinking.

I don't understand the first two criticisms at all, as Christianity is based in narcissism (believing yourself and anything you do as meriting any more value or importance whatsoever in comparison to anything else in the world, let alone being important enough to be judged or paid attention to at all by an all-powerful being who created this entire universe and everything you see solely for you and yours to experience it and do right,) as opposed to the nihlistic counter argument that the matter that makes up our bodies and the acts our bodies do and the thoughts our brains think during our relatively miniscule lifetimes in the universe are cosmically equivalent to the life and actions of a rat, or a pile of dirt on Neptune. I suppose intellectualism would seem snobbish if it were demonstrated in a way to make you feel as if your beliefs are a symptom of intellectual inferiority or, at least, a lax in reasoning skills, which I cannot help but see religious beliefs as being. As for the "insidious political activism" bit, you sound paranoid and deluded, and I assure you I, at the very least, am not trying to change anyone's minds about anything political. It is true that religious views may influence political beliefs, but to suggest that the primary motivation or reason for questioning the very realities of our reality is to warp others to vote one way or the other on some relatively insignificant modern issue is, frankly, astoundingly off-base.

If Christianity is false than life is nothing but a sick disgusting game and a joke. Life has no purpose but to play a losing game. Evil has already won. If one were to hold any other opinion then that would demonstrate a lack of compassion for the victims of evil, both in the past and present. Even if human effort stops evil in the future (highly unlikely) then there is still injustice remaining!

Why do you insist on assigning a "purpose" to life? You say it has to either be this entirely fair and sensible thing where everyone must play by a perscribed set of rules or else face dire supernatural consequences, or some sick losing game where nobody is capable of compassion, yet you fail to take into account the very real possibility that life, specifically human life for the purpose of this conversation, has no rules to abide by or purpose to serve beyond the very basic tenet of its existing - that it exist. We are some meat that can move and think and make words and so why can't that be enough? To make myself more clear, we are because we are. You can attribute your existence to a benevolent creator who has provided absolutely no evidence or even an affirmation of faith in his existence, or you can make the reasonable determination that you, as a person, are merely the result of billions of years of innumerable chemical reactions reacting with the results of other chemical reactions within your environment, and anything else is a comfort game. You are lucky enough to live in a time of great human enlightenment, we have been unable to uncover and explain a great deal about our world and all of the laws and processes by which it functions, and I just think it's a shame that people continue to attribute such things to the same fantastical explanation that people thousands of years ago used to explain what they could not at that time know.

Again, there is no proof against the existence of God, as such a thing is unprovable. But there is also absolutely no evidence for or even possible indication of such a thing being real. No phenomenon that cannot be explained by natural forces. True, natural forces which could have been created by God, but at that point, why even continue to add unnecessary and undue parameters to your existence, just to feel better about it?

If Christianity is false then that is not only a "bad thing" but the worst thing imaginable.

Only to someone who has spent a portion of his or her adult life choosing emotion over logic in an effort to cope with the painful and banal reality of his or her existence.

Neither do I...

Hence, this topic!

 

[Soothfish]

Only to someone who has spent a portion of his or her adult life choosing emotion over logic in an effort to cope with the painful and banal reality of his or her existence.

So do you wish that you were a computer or a robot instead of a human?

Human beings are supposed to actually care about the lives and dignity of other human beings. They are supposed to be troubled when there is injustice. Nothing in your post suggested that you care. You like the idea of behaving "morally" (whatever the hell that is supposed to mean in your world of raw computing), you felt personally attacked by my post, you love the idea of being a "logical person", and few other things that had nothing whatsoever to do with my stated premise. No offense but I couldn't care less.

I have only one simple question: what went through your head when you saw that URL link? Be honest!

Did you say to yourself: "juvenile humans are killed by other humans. This is a normal activity. Ignoring link. Moving on to attack Soothfish's lack of respect for Logic! Error Error! Does not compute! All hail Logic!"

 

[Soothfish]

You are lucky enough to live in a time of great human enlightenment, we have been unable to uncover and explain a great deal about our world and all of the laws and processes by which it functions, and I just think it's a shame that people continue to attribute such things to the same fantastical explanation that people thousands of years ago used to explain what they could not at that time know.

Maybe I'll care about that when little babies no longer lay in mass graves.

 

[Soothfish]

Again, there is no proof against the existence of God, as such a thing is unprovable. But there is also absolutely no evidence for or even possible indication of such a thing being real. No phenomenon that cannot be explained by natural forces. True, natural forces which could have been created by God, but at that point, why even continue to add unnecessary and undue parameters to your existence, just to feel better about it?

This is proof that you utterly failed to comprehend my original statement. I wasn't saying why one OUGHT to believe, I was saying why a compassionate should CARE if there is a God to bring justice. If God does not exist then there is no final justice for the unfortunate. This is beyond dispute. The dead are not rising from their graves spontaneously after all.

If you love logic so much then why are you not using it to address my posts? It's rather frustrating to have to sift through all your digressions to get to the relevant parts of your argument!

 

[Lindas Place]

Your being an atheist none of these questions or answers will be of any help to you - only God can answer these questions in your mind.

I have been to several different religions - raised one way - married another - met in the middle to make us both happy - still I was searching for more. I did not find more until I threw religion down and ask God for a personal relationship with Him, my life has never been the same - the Holy Spirit guides me and I walk with my hand in the hand of Jesus and walk in the joy of the Lord. He is my friend, walks side by side with me and the Holy Spirit guides me daily. A beautiful walk with the Master.

agree

 

[Simon_Templar]

nohbruhkneel,

Don't you see any logical contradiction in admitting on one hand that your own belief is logically unprovable, and on the other demanding that other people provide proof of their beliefs?

This is the kind of thing that makes atheist claims of reasonableness and logic into humorous irony.

Further, though you are correct in saying that general theism can't be disproven (universal negative etc) Christianity in specific is probably the easiest of all religions to disprove because it relies upon historical facts. To my knowledge, Christianity alone among all religions has virtually all of its key events play out in real history rather than in the realm of mysticism etc. As such it could be disproven if the historical facts upon which it relies could be shown to be false.

Yet this has never happened.


Atheism has become a vogue, fadish, idea because of guys like Dawkins and Hitchens etc.. but the reality is those guys are terrible when it comes to their philosophical arguments about God, or the non-existence of God. They are laughably bad.

In my opinion it is almost an oxymoron to say "logical atheist". The reason for this is that Atheism as it is generally held is a self contradictory view point. Atheists generally pride themselves on their reason and logic, and the deride view points or beliefs that rest upon faith. The basic tenet here is that a person should not believe something unless it is, or can be proven. This is a modern 'scientific' / 'rationalist' core assumption.

Yet, by your own admission atheism can't be proven. If this is the case then according to the basic assumptions of the general atheist view, it shouldn't be believed.

Atheists always try to get around this problem by arguing that they don't believe, and rather they disbelieve. This, however, is just a semantic game to avoid taking responsability for your own view point.

It is always harder to support a view point than it is to attack one, thus atheists play this game to try and avoid facing up to the real challenges.

Of course, the entire modern scientific view point has a problem because the assumption that things must be proven to be believed is itself unprovable, and thus by its own rule it is unbelievable.

As a result the only logical conclusion is that things do not need to be proven in order to be believed. Some things have to be taken as self evident, (ie they have to be taken on faith).

This is the problem of cynicism. Cnyicism is almost impossible to defeat in logical argument as long as it is on the offensive, but when cynicism itself is examined it is quickly found to be a fundamentally illogical, invalid view.

 

[JesusFreak78]

Not sure where to pose this question as there are quite a number of various sub-forums so I will ask it here :

What gives you conviction in your beliefs? Why did you choose, and why do you continue to identify yourself as a follower of, Christianity? I mean, specifically. With all due respect, saying "because it's what I believe" or "it makes the most sense to me" is not a valid answer because, well I know that's what you believe, that's why I'm asking you, why. What makes it stand out? What gives you your conviction to base your only life around this one form of thinking, out of an innumerable number of different options and beliefs?

I honestly just don't understand it. All religions seem more or less identical to me, with slight irrelevant variances that have no real bearing on the overall message and primary "rules" for humans to follow.

Example : terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/images/2008/03/11/871765615_54e46924af.jpg

I didn't choose Christ. He chose me. I grew up in an "atheist" home where I was never thought about God or anything in the bible, but I still always believed in God and still believes in God.

I continue to believe in God because you can see Him throughout His creation (Romans 1:20) and in my life and others life.

Additionally, with various tenets of Christianity (the approximate age of the Earth, the spontaneous creation of the various species that inhabit it, etc) having been demonstrably proven objectively false by modern science (via carbon-dating and the almost universally agreed upon Theory of Evolution, as two examples), what do you believe gives the Bible any more creedence than any other faith, or lack thereof, that other people have?

I assure will not respond condescendingly, and I am not asking these questions to convert, or to be converted by, anyone, this is coming from an honest confusion, or rather ignorance, I guess, on what makes someone choose one religion over another, other than the obvious "I was raised this way and just stuck with it because it's easy and I didn't want to rock the boat," to put it simply.

Full disclosure : I am an atheist and have never identified myself as a Christian or a follower of any other religion or belief.

I will have to disagree with you on the age of the earth. It's overwhelming evidence for a young earth and no evidence for macro evolution. I do believe in micro evolution, though. But that's for another thread.

 

[miamited]

Hi nbk,

For me, it was fulfilled prophecy. I believe that is also what God expected to be the 'proof'. He tells the Israelites that they will know the one true God because what He says will come to pass. Jesus also used fulfillment of the prophecies concerning himself to open the eyes of the disciples walking along the road to Emmaus after his resurrection. He told us that watching for the fulfillment of certain prophecies would also allow us to discern the times of his return.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[drjean]

I believe and follow because I have the Holy Spirit within me proving a God of love exists. Until a person has that, they can't fully understand anything else, imo.