Question for christians here

ShiningBecky · Feb 16, 2012

ebia said:
Indeed. Do your scholarly work and make the best judgement you can. I would recommend NT Wright's "Christian Origins and the Question of God" series, but read the other perspectives as well.

The canonical gospels and Paul are much closer in time to the historical Jesus than Gnostic and other texts, in time, in their Jewishness, and in a number of other ways. Start with Mark in a really goid translation (Lexham is growing on me for Mark as it keeps most of the rough edges) and let it's questions be your questions.

The problem with Paul (aside from being a sexist, misogynist and a pseudo-gnostic) is that he never met Jesus!! Don't you find it odd how Paul crafted the doctrine of the cross but he never even knew Jesus?! Why didn't his real apostles actually spread the message?

And why is there almost no mention of Jesus, his miracles, resurrection, etc. aside from in the bible? If it was such a big event (500 witnesses saw him float up in the sky), then why did no one write about it??????

Jonathan95 · Feb 16, 2012

ShiningBecky said:
The problem with Paul (aside from being a sexist, misogynist and a pseudo-gnostic) is that he never met Jesus!! Don't you find it odd how Paul crafted the doctrine of the cross but he never even knew Jesus?! Why didn't his real apostles actually spread the message?

And why is there almost no mention of Jesus, his miracles, resurrection, etc. aside from in the bible? If it was such a big event (500 witnesses saw him float up in the sky), then why did no one write about it??????

I don't know. But read books about Smith Wigglesworth, there you have more evidence Yahushua exists.

ChristianT · Feb 16, 2012

ShiningBecky said:
I have no reason to believe the god you identify in the bible is real. The bible is not evidence of anything by itself.

I think you have (christians) created a god after your own image and devices, which explains why god in the bible gets angry all the time, demands blood, gets frustrated, does not know everything, can be defeated by iron chariots and often changes his mind.

It's easy to confuse something or someone that was made in the image of another. Sometimes kids looks like their parents, and vica versa. If God was made in our image, then he would be living on earth with us, chillin', watching TV, and this forum would be titled, "New Age Forums". Also, where did you "learn" God doesn't know everything or got defeated by iron chariots?!?

A transcendental, omniscient, omnipotent God would not do those things.

And now you see why we (or at least I am) trying to find out where your heard such things from.

ShiningBecky said:
And how do we know what Jesus was like?

Do we use the gospels of Thomas or Mary Magdalene, or just the ones the church voted on in their canon? Is it the Jesus of the Calvinists, the Jesus of the Catholic church or the Jesus of the gnostic church? What about the "Christ consciousness" that people talk about?

There seem to be a lot of Jesuses around.

We know what Jesus was like through the gospels found in any standard [Christian] Bible, and also in other historical texts, slightly. There only seem to be a lot of Jesuses around because there are these things know as falsehoods, misconceptions, and misunderstandings.

ShiningBecky said:
It's too bad he didn't write anything. We could have had all this stuff sorted out a long time ago!! You'd think he might've known all the chaos his death would have caused with all the confusion over understanding it and all.

And He said not to fall for the lies, not everyone will be truly following Him who claim to be (sound familiar to this age?), and it's said that if every word He said were written down, there would not be enough pages to write it all down.

ShiningBecky said:
He was absolutely thrown away, if you go by orthodox christianity. Just throw all your trash onto Jesus, go out and sin, and it's all dandy, right?

Nope, wherever you heard this, they have NO idea what "orthodox" means. Or they don't know when dandy means.

After all, christianity is all about faith and not works, so you can just believe and get your get out of hell free card as long as you repent before you die.

Again, not orthodox, and completely throwing scripture into the garbage. Christianity isn't "not about works," you're just not saved by works, there's nothing you could do to erase your sin since anything you do is influenced (even the ever so slightest) by your sinfulness. The "free card" is as invalid as the "3 Lords" Jesus was talking about in Luke.

I'm quite sure every christian believes Jesus is savior. And that goes right along side saying he died to pacify the anger of god against them.

Yes, and? He was resurrected by God. The death of Christ along with the resurrection is what makes Jesus the Christ / Messiah / Savior. Anyone could die for sins, but only One could be raised from the dead afterwards. *cough* Jesus *cough*

Jonathan95 · Feb 16, 2012

ShiningBecky said:
I have seen the light, but I'm not here to save your soul. I don't think anyone can do that for you.

Do you really think that someone saying there were 7 continents (where was this mentioned again?) proves anything?

The bible itself is full of contradictions, cruelty and absurd stories. At best, you can read it as "purely a spiritual book" and it might have some value. But to take it literally... oh my goodness! I didn't do that for the last five or so years of my christian walk!!

I still believe in God though, in some form of another. But my God is bigger and greater than revenge and demanding blood from goats and sheep (or his son).

Revelation 17:9
This calls for a mind [to consider that is packed] with wisdom and intelligence [it is something for a particular mode of thinking and judging of thoughts, feelings, and purposes]. The seven heads are seven hills upon which the woman is sitting;
Revelation 17:8-10 (in Context)

Seven hills I believe is seven continents?

It's not full of contradictions, and absurd stories. Yahuwah doesn't contradict himself.

Faulty · Feb 16, 2012

ShiningBecky said:
The problem with Paul (aside from being a sexist, misogynist and a pseudo-gnostic) is that he never met Jesus!! Don't you find it odd how Paul crafted the doctrine of the cross but he never even knew Jesus?! Why didn't his real apostles actually spread the message?

Completely untrue.

For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel. For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:11-12

ShiningBecky · Feb 16, 2012

razeontherock said:
And the Bible declares that G-d always has a "remnant," and also compares that to the tithe. IOW, we should expect that at any given time, 90% are WRONG. This has no bearing on Truth. And as it happens, I DO think the same as the Church that goes back to the Apostles, (w/o all the killing people along the way) although I came up with it independently. (Lots of others have done this, too)

So no, you can't write me off as "just one man." OTOH, when did the variety of Evangelical belief you're currently grieving start? 1950?

This does NOT equate to what you said previously along these lines that I responded to; something about Jews being "of satan," etc

Ok I may be wrong, so correct me if I am, but aren't you just picking whatever you want to believe and leaving the rest? If that is the case, how can you say that you have the truth?

ShiningBecky · Feb 16, 2012

Jonathan95 said:
It's not full of contradictions, and absurd stories. Yahuwah doesn't contradict himself.

He may not but the bible does. I don't want to discourage you but how much of it have you actually read??????

ShiningBecky · Feb 16, 2012

Jonathan95 said:
I don't know. But read books about Smith Wigglesworth, there you have more evidence Yahushua exists.

I have read his books. My pastor's wife loves Smith Wigglesworth! But he never met Jesus, since he lived only about 100 years ago, so it doesn't prove that the bible is true.

Jonathan95 · Feb 16, 2012

ShiningBecky said:
He may not but the bible does. I don't want to discourage you but how much of it have you actually read??????

The bible is the Word of God. No it doesn't contradict itself. How much I've read has nothing to do with this.

ShiningBecky · Feb 16, 2012

Faulty said:
Completely untrue.
For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel. For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:11-12

Ok how do you know that he was telling the truth? People can lie to convince people!!

ebia · Feb 16, 2012

ShiningBecky said:
The problem with Paul (aside from being a sexist, misogynist and a pseudo-gnostic)

I would strongly argue that he is none of those things. Certainly not the last. He appears to be gnostic only if you start with incorrect ideas about what certain words mean.

is that he never met Jesus!!

he's significant because his letters tell us about the shape of Christianity only 20 years after Jesus resurrection.

Don't you find it odd how Paul crafted the doctrine of the cross but he never even knew Jesus?! Why didn't his real apostles actually spread the message?

as far as we know they did. Paul was the great letter writer and thinker.

And why is there almost no mention of Jesus, his miracles, resurrection, etc. aside from in the bible? If it was such a big event (500 witnesses saw him float up in the sky), then why did no one write about it??????

There are precisely as many documents as we would expect. 1st century Palestine is not a great source if documents. Remember this was a world that produced the volume of documents we do and most of the documents that were written were lost.

Jonathan95 · Feb 16, 2012

ShiningBecky said:
Ok how do you know that he was telling the truth? People can lie to convince people!!

He says he's not lying:

2 Corinthians 11:31
The God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ knows, He Who is blessed and to be praised forevermore, that I do not lie.
2 Corinthians 11:30-32 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 11 (Whole Chapter)

Galatians 1:20
Now [note carefully what I am telling you, for it is the truth], I write this as if I were standing before the bar of God; I do not lie.
Galatians 1:19-21 (in Context)

ebia · Feb 16, 2012

ShiningBecky said:
Ok how do you know that he was telling the truth? People can lie to convince people!!

If Paul is making it all up you've got to explain why he made it up in the shape he did, and how he could get away with that.

That might look easy at the airy-fairy hand waving level, but when you get down to details it raises far more problems than it solves and thereby fails the test of a good historical hypothesis.

ShiningBecky · Feb 16, 2012

ChristianT said:
It's easy to confuse something or someone that was made in the image of another. Sometimes kids looks like their parents, and vica versa. If God was made in our image, then he would be living on earth with us, chillin', watching TV, and this forum would be titled, "New Age Forums". Also, where did you "learn" God doesn't know everything or got defeated by iron chariots?!?

And now you see why we (or at least I am) trying to find out where your heard such things from.

We know what Jesus was like through the gospels found in any standard [Christian] Bible, and also in other historical texts, slightly. There only seem to be a lot of Jesuses around because there are these things know as falsehoods, misconceptions, and misunderstandings.

And He said not to fall for the lies, not everyone will be truly following Him who claim to be (sound familiar to this age?), and it's said that if every word He said were written down, there would not be enough pages to write it all down.

Nope, wherever you heard this, they have NO idea what "orthodox" means. Or they don't know when dandy means.

Again, not orthodox, and completely throwing scripture into the garbage. Christianity isn't "not about works," you're just not saved by works, there's nothing you could do to erase your sin since anything you do is influenced (even the ever so slightest) by your sinfulness. The "free card" is as invalid as the "3 Lords" Jesus was talking about in Luke.

Yes, and? He was resurrected by God. The death of Christ along with the resurrection is what makes Jesus the Christ / Messiah / Savior. Anyone could die for sins, but only One could be raised from the dead afterwards. *cough* Jesus *cough*

It's in Joshua, about the iron chariots. I forget what chapter, it's been a couple years since I've read Joshua. My church only teaches on Joshua 1:8, it's like the only good verse in the book!! LOL In several places in the bible, it says God changes his mind and has to go down to see what people are up to. That is not transcendental or all present. And in the Old Testament, God actually lived in the temple, it said between the two cherubim. How the God of the universe could sit in a dark little room in middle eastern Israel for hundreds of years is not really very convincing.

Ok but how do you know the Bible is true???? Where is the proof of that statement? I can say I have a million dollars in the bank but if I actually don't, it is not a true claim.

ebia · Feb 16, 2012

Btw, I agree with you that scripture shows God being surprised, disappointed, changing his mind,...

That's part of being in genuine relationship with this creation.

ShiningBecky · Feb 16, 2012

ebia said:
If Paul is making it all up you've got to explain why he made it up in the shape he did, and how he could get away with that.

That might look easy at the airy-fairy hand waving level, but when you get down to details it raises far more problems than it solves and thereby fails the test of a good historical hypothesis.

I could only take guesses here.. Maybe he wanted to start a new religion to give people hope? How is that wrong? Did you ever see the movie, the Last Temptation of the Christ? I saw it years ago, when I was still a christian. I hated it at first, but one scene in the movie stuck out to me even at the time. It was when Paul was preaching to the crowd (in Jesus' dream) and telling them about Jesus' death. The real Jesus was alive and confronted him saying, "I'm Jesus. Stopping lying on me!" But Paul basically said, "Hey, I'm trying to bring these poor people hope and comfort." Maybe that was what went through his mind. I'm only guessing??? I don't know!

After the temple was demolished by the romans in 70 C.E. the Jews had no religion left. Maybe this is what inspired christianity and the "no more sacrifices" part.

ebia · Feb 16, 2012

ShiningBecky said:
I could only take guesses here.. Maybe he wanted to start a new religion to give people hope?

as I said, it's when you get down to detail you find it won't fly. If someone were making it up in that world it might take a number of different forms (eg the gnosticism of the so-called gospel of thomas) but it certainly wouldn't look like this.

[quote{
How is that wrong? Did you ever see the movie, the Last Temptation of the Christ? [/quote]
no

After the temple was demolished by the romans in 70 C.E. the Jews had no religion left. Maybe this is what inspired christianity and the "no more sacrifices" part.

Paul was dead by then. His letters were written between 49 and about 65 AD

ChristianT · Feb 16, 2012

ShiningBecky said:
It's in Joshua, about the iron chariots. I forget what chapter, it's been a couple years since I've read Joshua. My church only teaches on Joshua 1:8, it's like the only good verse in the book!! LOL In several places in the bible, it says God changes his mind and has to go down to see what people are up to. That is not transcendental or all present. And in the Old Testament, God actually lived in the temple, it said between the two cherubim. How the God of the universe could sit in a dark little room in middle eastern Israel for hundreds of years is not really very convincing.

omnipresent means He is everywhere always. So that limits Him to anywhere but mid eastern israel? That's a little contradictory, no? As for changing His mind and "coming down to look," that has nothing in contrast with transcendence or omnipresence.

Dictionary said:
transcendent |tranˈsendənt|
adjective
(of God) existing apart from and not subject to the limitations of the material universe.

omnipresent |ˌämnəˈpreznt|
adjective
(of God) present everywhere at the same time.
widely or constantly encountered; common or widespread

omniscient |ämˈniSHənt|
adjective
being aware of everything

Not once does mind-change or interaction of God with Creation defy His qualities. So, logically, your argument is invalid.

Ok but how do you know the Bible is true???? Where is the proof of that statement? I can say I have a million dollars in the bank but if I actually don't, it is not a true claim.

This site has everything I would say, and more (like more examples than I could come up with, and info on other issues)
How Do You Know The Bible Is True?

ShiningBecky · Feb 16, 2012

ebia said:
as I said, it's when you get down to detail you find it won't fly. If someone were making it up in that world it might take a number of different forms (eg the gnosticism of the so-called gospel of thomas) but it certainly wouldn't look like this.

How is that wrong? Did you ever see the movie, the Last Temptation of the Christ?
no

Paul was dead by then. His letters were written between 49 and about 65 AD

Are you sure about that? How do you know that?The only thing we know about this person named Paul is what he wrote in his epistles.

I guess what I'm trying to say is we have to take all this on faith. It's like, you can't prove the bible is inspired or divine. You have to take that assumption by faith and go from there.

ChristianT · Feb 16, 2012

ShiningBecky said:
Are you sure about that? How do you know that?The only thing we know about this person named Paul is what he wrote in his epistles.

I guess what I'm trying to say is we have to take all this on faith. It's like, you can't prove the bible is inspired or divine. You have to take that assumption by faith and go from there.

Or, ya know, research the history and culture of the time? Just an idea.

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