Question for Charismatic Christians

[Plumbdumb]

I recently spoke with a man who had some very different ideas on Spiritual Gifts. I won't tell the whole story here, but there is a lot more involved than the answer to my question. Scripture tells me "In many counselors there is wisdom" and that is why I am posting this. Now, I am a Southern Baptist, but my best friend and his wife are Charismatics and I am not ignorant nor critical as to their beliefs, so I'm not looking for general knowledge on the difference in traditional Baptist doctrine on this subject and the beliefs you guys hold. I would like your answer to this question and would be interested in your comments on it.

This fellow believes that we are all given one gift, that being the Gift of the Holy Sprit, and that we all have every single "manefestation" of that gift. In other words, we can all prophesy, heal, speak in tounges, etc. whenever we wish. He further believes we must be taught (by another man, not God) how to do these things, as we are otherwise incapable of knowing we can do them.
Personally, I find this view in opposition to God's Word. While I believe that while we are given one or more Gifts that last our lifetime, God can and does empower us wiith other gifts as our need or a situation dictates (eg. we may not have the gift of discernment, but we may need to excercise that gift in the absence of one who has it).

This situation is critical and involves far more than I am willing to reveal here, but your views/comments are sincerely needed.

Thanks

 

[J.A.I]

Eh.. I am not in agreeance w/him saying that man must teach those things... I think that the gifts are exactly what they are - Godgiven.

 

[Suffolk Sean]

1 Cor 12:4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Obviously from the Bible we do not all have the same gifts.

Gifts can be imparted by the laying on of hands as well

1 Tim 4:14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership.

 

[BInC]

Eh.. I am not in agreeance w/him saying that man must teach those things... I think that the gifts are exactly what they are - Godgiven.

That is my opnion as well. I understand the value of learning skill from other men, but if you have to do it like that then it really isn't a "gift." A spiritual gift is somthing God gives you a natural talent for. However, I'm sure there is alot to be gained from talking to others who have that gift and learning from them, but it is not necessary for you to do that in order to be able to use the gift.

 

[Suffolk Sean]

I hope that helps btw

 

[JimB]

I posted the following on another thread. Maybe it fits better here ...

My understandingof spiritual gifts is that they are available to all. To use a metaphor, they are the “tools” (more militaristic Christians would say weapons) by which we do the work of the kingdom. When a need arises requiring a “supernatural” solution, we simply go to the toolbox (arsenal) and get the tool we need. In this way the Spirit uses us to do the work of the kingdom. “All these [gifts] are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines” (1 Cor. 12.11).

To say that I have the gift of discernment but not the gift of tongues, for example, is to say I have another Spirit. Paul says it is the same Spirit and he distributes all of his gifts where (and when) he chooses. It is like saying, I only have a screwdriver so, if a hammer is needed, I have to wait for someone who has the hammer before the work can be done. Not only is that inefficient, it is silly.

So, S-----, you CAN speak in tongues. Any believer can. Just because you don’t (or won’t) does not mean you can’t. You can also heal the sick, do the work of an evangelist, discern spirits, work miracles, prophecy, receive revelations, etc.

What do you say?

\o/

​

 

[riverpastor]

It's still an excellent post, Jim M, even if you copped it off of yourself.

I have an aversion to calling you "dumb" so I'll just say "Sir".

However, I'm sure there is alot to be gained from talking to others who have that gift and learning from them, but it is not necessary for you to do that in order to be able to use the gift.

I am hoping that this is the reference that the man you spoke with has.

Recently, on another post, I wrote about an evangelist who operates in several gifts of the Spirit who asked from those more seasoned in the gift to mentor and help him in the area of "operating" in the gifts. In other words, he was asking for help in how to administer certain gifts.

As Jim states. The gifts are like tools. Now, you don't hand a novice a big chainsaw and point to a tree. He'd probably kill himself within the hour.

But, if you take a little time with him and show him the fundamentals of the "how to" and the "why", then maybe he'll be confident in using the tool.

Albeit, the WHO is ALL important: Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit within us!

 

[JimB]

It's still an excellent post, Jim M, even if you copped it off of yourself.

I have an aversion to calling you "dumb" so I'll just say "Sir".



I am hoping that this is the reference that the man you spoke with has.

Recently, on another post, I wrote about an evangelist who operates in several gifts of the Spirit who asked from those more seasoned in the gift to mentor and help him in the area of "operating" in the gifts. In other words, he was asking for help in how to administer certain gifts.

As Jim states. The gifts are like tools. Now, you don't hand a novice a big chainsaw and point to a tree. He'd probably kill himself within the hour.

But, if you take a little time with him and show him the fundamentals of the "how to" and the "why", then maybe he'll be confident in using the tool.

Albeit, the WHO is ALL important: Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit within us!

It’s my turn to compliment you on an excellent post, RP.

Because we are all different, coming from different places - various cultures and subcultures, value systems, theologies, upbringing, DNA, etc. – we all approach life in different ways. For that reason, some people are more naturally prone to excel in one gift above another or who may feel more comfortable functioning in one area of service than another. For this reason, they may feel that they have only the gift with which they are more proficient and, therefore, may abandon others or leave them other people to work saying they are not gifted in those area. This is not true, of course, but it is natural to assume such things.

Furthermore, as they utilize favored gifts more and more, the more proficient they become in utilizing the gift and the more sensitive they become to the Spirit when He desires such a gift to be used. However, I believe that we can (and should) strive to utilize all of the tools (gifts) God has given. A look into the ministry of the Apostle Paul in the Book of Acts will show you that he utilized many (if not all) of the spiritual giftings to do the work of the kingdom.

\o/

 

[John 10:10]

This fellow believes that we are all given one gift, that being the Gift of the Holy Sprit, and that we all have every single "manefestation" of that gift. In other words, we can all prophesy, heal, speak in tounges, etc. whenever we wish. He further believes we must be taught (by another man, not God) how to do these things, as we are otherwise incapable of knowing we can do them.

Acts 8:12-17 gives the clearest example of Believers who believed "the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ (proclaimed by Philip), they were being baptized," and yet were not manifesting the gift of the Holy Spirit. Peter and John came afterwards, laid hands on these new Believers, and they were receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. Just how do you think this manifestation was evident to Peter and John? The same way it was evident on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2:4&11 and at Cornelius' house in Acts 10:46, "For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God."

Once one enters into the Spirit-filled life, there is a tremendous difference between receiving the gift of Holy Spirit and being established in the gift of the Holy Spirit. Watchman Nee said this:

"God seeks not to give us gifts, graces and experiences. God seeks to give us the precious life of His Son, and to be established in Him." The Holy Spirit then takes the things of Jesus and discloses them to us (John 16:13-15).

Learning how to walk and live in the Holy Spirit is a lifelong process, and other Believers can help you in this process. Phil 2:12-13 declares, "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." Can Believers work out their salvation without the help of other Believers? Yes, they can; but it's the exception, not the rule. I personally want others in the body of Christ that can give me the support, training, and correction when I need it. Just because support, training, and correction has been abused does not mean it cannot be properly exercised in the body of Christ.

Blessings

 

[Plumbdumb]

Sometimes I don't express myself clearly (I understand what I mean ergo others should ) hence the name. Let me try to clarify as best as I can.
1) The metaphor he used about being taught was "If I open a bank account in your name & you don't know it, you can't use it. So you have to be taught to use your gifts just as you have to be taught about the bank account". That does not sound like mentoring/discipleing to me.
2)In saying that we all have every gift, he limited that number to nine - but didn't ennumerate which nine those were - altho he did mention "pastors" as being one. I'm not the or a pastor at my church and would never equate myself with my pastor either in responsibility or authority.
3)This guy also has stated that you can be "born again of the devil just like you can be born again of God". His rational for this is "if you can be born again of God, then you must be able to be born again of your father the devil" - his choice of words, not mine- which seems to me to be making the enemy equal with God.

I could give you many more examples of things he has said and done, but I don't think that is necessary. Some astute reader may well guess what is going on here, or the Lord may reveal it to you. PM me about that please.

Hope this clarifies things. OH, you can call me "Plumb", "PD" or "Dummy". I assure you I've been called much, much worse.

 

[Nessie]

Man cannot be taught by man to have these Spiritual gifts. God gives them to us. Furthermore, I do not believe that any person at any time can tap into these gifts. NOt everyone has them, although I do believe anyone can have them. The only way you get Spiritual gifts is if you repent to God and be baptized. Then you will be filled with the Holy Ghost, therefore possessing those gifts.

But even when you are filled with the Holy Ghost, you still cannot tap into those gifts at any time. Speaking in tongues and dancing and healing, all of that comes when God wants you to have it. You don't decide to have it. I've seen many people speak in tongues and dance and then not even know they did it just minutes before.

On the healing issue, I do believe that those with the gift to heal are "tapping" into their gift--but they can only heal the sick if God wants that person to be healed. And a lot of it also depends on the sickly person. If they do not believe that God can heal them using that person, then they will not be healed. Faith in God is what heals.

I don't know if that helps at all. That is just from the viewpoint of an Apostolic.

 

[sandman]

Hey PD

I agree with everything concerning the manifestations that this fellow speaks of, with the exception of this

He further believes we must be taught (by another man, not God) how to do these things, as we are otherwise incapable of knowing we can do them.

This is why……………………

If we read what the word says in I Cor 12:1-7 you will see that that manifestations or operations is exactly what they are called. Not only does verse 7 state that they are a manifestation of the gift of holy spirit we received at the new birth {small h & s in reference to the gift, as opposed to the capitol H & S in reference to the giver God}

But it “is given to every man to profit withal”

Verse 11

But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

The as his wills is not as God wills for two reasons: the pronoun relates with its closest associated noun…man

And God would be contradicting Himself in verse 7 if that were true.

Besides God is not a respecter of persons which Acts 10:34, Ephesians 6:9, and Colossians 3:25 states. If God gave you tongues and me wisdom, tongues & knowledge

That would make Him a respecter of persons.

There are other things in these verses that substantiate that we all, who are born again, have the ability to operate all nine of the manifestations of the spirit. But it is highly unlikely that that anybody would care, most people are reluctant to change their beliefs even when it is in blank and white.

The following post goes through verses 1-7 of I Cor 12. It was to long to put in this post.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

sandman

 

[sandman]

Using the King James Version any English words being translated will precede the Greek in bold, all Greek words will be in italics, with the definition of the Greek underlined. All words added by translators to the KJV will be in [italics] with brackets​

​

​

I Corinthians 12​

verse 1​

Now concerning spiritual [gifts] brethren, I would not have you ignorant.​

​

spiritual = pneumatikos = “that which belongs to, is determined by, influenced by, or proceeds from the spirit”​

​

gifts = was added by translators, and is not in any greek text.- scratch it !​

​

ignorant. = agnoeô = without knowledge, not to understand or comprehend or perceive. ​

​

A literal translation could be: Now concerning matters belonging to , determined by, influenced by, or proceeding from, the spirit; brethren I would not have you to be uninformed.​

Or: Now concerning spiritual matters brethren, I would not have you to be uninformed.​

​

verse 2​

Ye know that ye were Gentiles carried away unto these dumb idols even as ye were led​

​

carried =apagô = led or conducted away​

these = omit – not in text​

dumb idols = voiceless images of wood or stone​

led [lead] = agô = led; under direction of others​

​

The Gentiles has worshiped dumb idols because that’s what they were taught, and no one can go beyond what they are taught.​

​

verse 3​

​

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord but by the Holy ghost.​

wherefore = why fore ​

give you to understand = gnôrizô = reveal, to declare, to make known ​

no man = no one​

speaking = laleô = to talk or to use the voice without reference to the words spoken​

by = en = in​

the = all critical Greek text omit both uses of the article “the”​

spirit of God = pneuma Theou = the new nature in the child of God​

calleth = legô = recount, or say, to lay in order​

accursed = anathema = a ban or a curse, one that is intensely disliked, the denunciation of something​

that = not in text, added by translators. ​

can = dunamai = is capable of, to be able, have power​

say = eìpon = to declare, use in ref to “call one so and so”​

that = not in text​

but = ei mê = if not , or except​

by = en = with, or in​

holy ghost = pneuma hagion - lower case not God the giver, but the gift from God​

​

A literal of verse 3, could be: “Because you were lead away by dumb idols in the past I want to declare unto you that no one who is speaking in tongues is denouncing or calling Jesus accursed. And no one is really capable of declaring that Jesus is lord in there life ​

except by way of pneuma hagion {holy spirit} which is the gift in manifestation.”​

​

This does not mean that if you don’t speak in tongues your not born again. It is simply your proof in the sense realm that Jesus is lord in your life.​

Several accounts in the book of acts give record of those who when born again spoke in tongues ​

​

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verse 4​

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Now there are diversities of gifts , but the same Spirit​

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diversity = diairesis = a compound word from dia meaning “through” and hairesis meaning “choice” or “option”



gifts = charismata = “gifts of grace” from God to man. Charisma is always used of Gods gifts, {verticially from God to man} of which there are seven. The gift of holy spirit [Acts 2:38, ] The five gift ministries [Ephesians 4: 8,11], and the gifts of healing

[ I Corinthians 12:9].

Spirit = The giver, God



A literal understanding of this would be: “Through the choice or option of God there are gifts given to man.”



verse 5

And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord



differences: same word as diversities in verse 4 [diaresis] which is the act of dividing through Gods choice or option.

administrations = diakonia = ministries whose servicebenefit others.



The ministries, gifts of God’s grace are to be of service in benefit to others



verse 6

And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all



diversities = diaresis = choice or option

operations = energêma {n}= “what is wrought,” “effects produced”

worketh = energeô {v}= “to be in work”, “to energize or be energized”





verse 7

But the manifestation of the spirit is given to every man to profit withal



but = sets in contrast that which precedes it … gifts

manifestation = no linger dealing with gifts, but now, manifestation of the spirit.

The word manifestation in the Greek is phanerôsis meaning “to be visible,” “bring to light,” “or open to sight”

 

[Simon_Templar]

PD,


The scriptures say that the Holy Spirit "gives the gifts severaly as he wills". I personaly think, both from experience and also from my impressions of scripture that some people are chosen by the Spirit specially for certain giftings. To me that means that their life and service in the church will be halmarked by the exercise of a specific gift or set of giftings. However, I do not believe that people are limited in what gifts they can get. For example, if you have the gift of prophecy, that doesn't mean you've already got yours and you can't have another.
I believe that the Spirit can and does use people in giftings at times when it is needed and at other times they may not have the same gifting. For example, if there was a strong need for wisdom on a certain issue, the Spirit would likely give someone a word of wisdom for the situation, that person might not usualy get words of wisdom and might never get one again, but it was needed in that situation so the Spirit gave it as he willed. In this way I think anyone can be used in any gift.


As to needing to be taught how to use the gifts, I disagree. I think everyone needs teaching from the church about how the gifts function generaly, but I don't think it is necessary to have someone specificly teach you how to use what God gives you. I think the Holy Spirit is the only necessary teacher for receiving the gifts.
Having said that, the Spirit established the order of the church and He works through it often. Also, authority given from the Spirit usualy goes through the established authority of the church, this is why gifts are often imparted by the laying on of hands (or should be).
As for the bank account analogy... The teaching you get at church should tell you how to access the bank account, and to some degree what to do with the money, you don't need another special teacher for that. Not that I'm in anyway trying to downgrade mentorship and accountability as they are both worthwhile. The Spirit gives you the bank account and the Spirit enables you to withdraw what is needed when it is needed. Really its more like a trust than a bank account though. Because we don't simply have free reign to take what we want when we want it. It is given to us, so that we may give it to the body, when it is needed.


Born again of the devil. I think the logic behind your friend's argument here is very poor. Man started out in a state of being alive, both physicaly and spiritualy. When Adam sinned, mankind died spiritualy. This death was seperation from God. Our spirit which was meant to be in communion with God was seperated from him. Thus mankind has need for our spirit to be reborn into communion with God. Now we say this is being reborn or born again because we once were in communion with God and we are being restored to it. Thus you can not be born again of the devil, or reborn of the devil unless at some point you were already in communion with the devil and then lost that communion.
At best you could possibly be born of the devil. Because you would have to be entering a new state, not one you've been in before. However, the evidence of scripture would tend to suggest to me that all who are not born again are effectively "of their father the devil". The spiritual world in one sense is binary... its not binary in that God and the devil are equal, its binary in the sense that there are only two options, either you are a child of God or a child of the devil, there's no limbo in between.

 

[Father Rick]

If this guy thinks everyone has ALL the spiritual gifts-- find out if he realizes how many spiritual gifts there are. In addition to the manifestation gifts mentioned in Corinthians, there are quite a few others

Confirmation Gifts--Isaiah 11:2

wisdom,

understanding,

counsel,

fortitude,

knowledge,

piety,

fear of the Lord (reverence).

Seven Gifts of the Spirit <1>mentioned in Isaiah 11:2. St. Justin Martyr identifies the seven gifts in Isaiah as gifts of the Holy Spirit which were bestowed on Christ in their fullness and which are again given "by Him, from the place of His Spirit’s powers, to all His believers according to their merits." <2>As believers through Baptism and Confirmation, we are recipients of the gift of the Holy Spirit, and are thus recipients of His seven fold gifts: wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord (reverence). The fullness of these gifts in our lives is determined by our merits, but without these gifts in some measure we would not be able to live the Christian life at all for, as an example, we would be unable to understand, or to have the knowledge and wisdom to know how to live the Christ-life.



Motivation Gifts--Romans 12:3-8

Prophecy

Serving (Ministering/Helps)

Teaching

Exhorting

Giving

Administration/Leadership

Mercy

Manifestation Gifts-- 1 Corinthians 12:2-11

Word of Knowledge

Word of Wisdom

Faith

Prophecy

Gifts of Healings

Miracles

Discerning of Spirits

Diverse Tongues

Interpretation of Tongues

Ministry Gifts-- Ephesians 4:7-12

Apostle

Prophet

Evangelist

Pastor

Teacher

Sacrificial and Consecrating Gifts​

​

​

Charity (ability to express the love of God to the Church and to the world in such a way that it becomes a model of perfection of the purity and fidelity of our Lord’s love, and which includes in its expression such selfless ways as to perform Heroic Acts of Charity) <7> [Jn 14:23; 1 Cor 13]
​

Virtue <8>(ability to practice Heroic Virtue: the four cardinal virtues (prudence, justice, temperance, and fortitude) [Wis 8:7; 1 Pet 4:7; Lv 19:15; Col 4:1; Ps 118:14; Jn 16:33; Sir 5:2 (37:27-31); 18:30; Titus 2:12] and the three theological virtues (faith, hope, and charity) [2 Pet 1:4; 1 Cor 13:13; Rom 1:17; Gal 5:6; Heb 10:23; Titus 3:6-7; Jn 15:9-12; Mt 22:40; Rom 13:8-10; 1 Cor 13; Col 3:14] over an extended period of time out of just and worthy service to the People of God and the Church)

Martyrdom (ability to willingly and joyfully sacrifice oneself for the cause of Christ in service to others and to the Church, in fidelity to His Truth, in the face of persecution, ridicule, loss of reputation or position, or other sufferings from the world, friends, or family — even unto death) [1 Cor 13:3]

Celibacy (ability to offer to God one’s chastity, with Christ as one’s exclusive Spouse <9>, and thereby renouncing, for the greater glory of God and for His service, one’s right to marriage and family) [1 Cor 7:7; Mt 19:1-12; 1 Cor 7:32]

Poverty (ability to renounce and be unencumbered with the material riches and things of this world, which distract from the sacred things of God, in order to serve others and the Church that others might come to know the wealth of Christ) [Mt 19:21; Eph 3:9ff; 2 Cor 8:9]

Obedience (ability to renounce the will and desires of the self to order and direct one’s life and thereby to submit to another’s authority, in the service of God and the Church, so that others might know the freedom of being coheirs in God’s kingdom) [Jn 8:29; 4:34; 14:15,21]

Substantial Silence (ability to be still and know that God is God <10> in a manner that quiets the self and thereby reaches profound levels of contemplation and meditation in such a way that others may profoundly come to know the presence of the Lord) [Ps 46:10; Zec 2:13]

Substantial Solitude (ability to be alone with God without need of the normal human interaction and social intercourse in such a way that others may come to a profound knowledge of the presence of the Divine Companion) [Lk 5:15-16; Mk 1:35; Mt 6:6]

Prayer (ability to pray boldly, strongly, and unceasingly for others in such a way that they might experience the divine action of Jesus’ love in their lives) [Mt 6:6; Pr 15:8, Phil 4:6; Jas 5:15; Eph 6:18]

Penance/Mortification (ability to live a life of penance and mortification in such a way that others may turn daily to a conversion to Christ and further to be inspired to the perfection that arouses the soul to God) [2 Tim 2:4; Mt 5:39-48] <11>

Speaking Gifts​

​

​

​

Apostleship (ability to minister, evangelize, and pastor in cross-cultural, missionary settings) [1 Cor 12:28; Eph 4:11]

Prophecy (ability to preach or proclaim the Truth of God with clarity and to apply it to a particular situation with a view to correction or edification) [Rom 12:6; 1 Cor 12:10, 28; Eph 4:11]

Evangelism (ability to effectively communicate the Faith in such a way as to bring people to Christian conversion; and to effectively disciple others into the fullness of the Christ-life) [Eph 4:11]

Pastoring/Shepherding (ability to provide spiritual counsel, food, guidance, and guardianship) [Eph 4:11]

Teaching (ability to explain effectively the Truth of God in such a way that those being taught not only understand the Truth in a profound way, but are profoundly inspired by the Truth) [Rom 12:7; 1 Cor 12:28; Eph 4:11]

Exhorting (ability to counsel or to encourage those in spiritual, emotional, or physical need) [Rom 12:8]

Word of Knowledge (ability to discover, know, and communicate deep spiritual Truths) [1 Cor 12:8]

Word of Wisdom (ability to apply and communicate knowledge wisely) [1 Cor 12:8]

Tongues (ability to speak in a language not previously learned for the purposes, when interpreted, of prophecy and edification of the Church) [1 Cor 12:10, 28]

Interpretation (ability to interpret a language not previously learned into one’s native language for the purposes of prophecy and edification of the Church) [1 Cor 12:10]

Ministering Gifts​

​

​

​

Ministry/Helps (ability to lend a hand or to serve others in a supportive role in a joyful and productive way) [Rom 12:7; 1 Cor 12:28]

Hospitality (ability to provide open house and warm welcome for those in need, particularly travelers or others in need of shelter) [1 Pet 4:9, 10; cf. Rom 12:13]

Giving (ability to give of one’s fiscal resources to the Lord’s work with simplicity, generosity, liberality, and delight) [Rom 12:8]

Government/Ruling (ability to administer, manage, and lead in God’s work) [Rom 12:8; 1 Cor 12:28]

Showing Mercy (ability to be compassionate with strength, cheerfulness, and action to those who are in need as evidenced by Spiritual and Corporal Works of Mercy) [Rom 12:8]

Faith (ability to see something that God wants done and to sustain unwavering confidence that God will do it regardless of obstacles) [1 Cor 12:9]

Discernment (ability to perceive the spirit of truth from the spirit of error) [1 Cor 12:10]

Exorcism (ability to counsel with people harassed, oppressed, or possessed by demonic attachments and forces, to discern the issues and needs to facilitate healing in those people, and, with fortitude and resolve regardless of attempts to fear or intimidation, to authoritatively facilitate and effect the casting out or casting away of those forces through spiritual counseling and if necessary through "Simple" Rites. (Note: "Solemn" Rites of Exorcism are reserved to a priest designated by a local Ordinary and are conducted only upon the Ordinary’s permission)) [Mk 1:25-26; 3:15; 6:7, 13; 16:17]

Miracles (ability to work an event of supernatural power that is palpable to the senses and is accomplished as a sign of divine commission) [1 Cor 12:10, 28]

Healing (ability to intervene in a supernatural way as an instrument for the curing of illness and the restoration of health) [1 Cor 12:9, 28]

Ask him if he has the gift (charismata) of celibacy... or martyrdom (also a charismata)?

 

[sandman]

PD

This guy also has stated that you can be "born again of the devil just like you can be born again of God". His rational for this is "if you can be born again of God, then you must be able to be born again of your father the devil" - his choice of words, not mine- which seems to me to be making the enemy equal with God

being born of the devils seed………………………………

Having spent a few years in devil worship before God rescued me. I was aware of the children of the devil {those born of the seed of the serpent} but it wasn’t until several years later that I decided to see what was written in the Word about this.

There is a devil with a host of devil spirits on this earth to disrupt the movement of the Word, and hinder Gods people, his purpose, to steal, kill, and destroy. A spiritual battle is taking place around us daily, not that we should focus on this, for “greater is He that is in you then he that is in the world” {II Cor 4:4}. But you should be aware of who your adversary is, and how he operates, so when conflict does arise you know where it is coming from and how to handle it.

Most, if not all of us here are born again of Gods incorruptible seed. This was accomplished by confessing Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, and believing in your heart that God raised Him from the dead. When we did that the great miracle of all times took place “the new birth”. No more a person of body and soul we now have spirit within. That spirit {holy spirit} is the gift, the promise of the Father, incorruptible seed.

Once you have seed you cannot loose it or change it, anymore then you can loose or change the physical seed from your natural birth. As I Peter 1:23 states that new birth seed “liveth and abideth forever”



Now, just as you accepted Christ as your Lord there are those who have accepted the devil as their lord and confessed with their mouth that he is the true god, and thus are born of the seed of the devil. Seed is seed you cannot change it. Once you accept the devil as your true god, you are born of the devils seed; of coarse it doesn’t “liveth and abideth forever” like Gods seed. For the Word declares that the end is coming for the god of this world.

Just to clarify: not everybody who is in satanic worship or who practices in the occult is “seed.” Many are not; some are born again Christians {obviously not walking in the light of their calling, and I use the word “Christians”, just to distinguish between the two seeds. They are former Christians born again of Gods seed} some are just a person of body and soul who have not made a commitment either way.

Genesis points out the two seeds, the one of the woman which was Christ and the seed of the serpent
Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel



Galatians 3:16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


I John sets the distinction between forgivable and unforgivable sin. It does no good to pray for someone who is sinned unto death {seed of the devil}

I John 5:16 {17 & 18} not listed If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.



This basically deals with the unforgivable sin, but I won’t get into that now. It does not make the enemy equal with God in any way; on the contrary there is no comparison.



There are those who have decided to take a different route, those who have selected to go the way of darkness, to make the god of this world, their god. Their father is the devil, the deceiver, the author of lies. Their power is real, and much glory and rewards do they receive here on earth ….but that will end. These are the children of the devil, who are born of the devils seed, they have gone the way of Cane, and that sin against the Holy Ghost is unforgivable, unchangeable, unredeemable; for seed cannot be changed.



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Father Rick

If this guy thinks everyone has ALL the spiritual gifts-- find out if he realizes how many spiritual gifts there are. In addition to the manifestation gifts mentioned in Corinthians, there are quite a few others

Of the things you have identified many are abilities, not gifts.

As far as I can see from the Word there is only seven Gifts given to the Church of the Body.

The gift of holy spirit – when we are born again Acts 2:38

The five gift ministries Ephesians 4:8-11

And the gift of healing one of the nine manifestations/operations of the gift of holy spirit. I Cor 12:9

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God Bless
sandman

 

[TasManOfGod]

Jesus said to "Go and make disciples of all men (persons)"
Did not Jesus teach His disciples and set up His Church to have within it teachers (as well as the other of the "five" ministries. Gifts of the Holy Spirit are NOT our gifts but gifts from God to those who are needful. His disciples (us) are merely vessels that God uses to deliver His gifts to those who need them. Now to do all this you need to be instructed. Paul himself is an excellent example of a teacher/discipler in the operation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit for those of his time. It is not that we cannot obtain much from Paul's teaching but we all do a lot better if we follow in the footsteps of another who is mature in the things pertaining to the Spirit.

 

[Father Rick]

Father Rick


Quote:

If this guy thinks everyone has ALL the spiritual gifts-- find out if he realizes how many spiritual gifts there are. In addition to the manifestation gifts mentioned in Corinthians, there are quite a few others




Of the things you have identified many are abilities, not gifts.

As far as I can see from the Word there is only seven Gifts given to the Church of the Body.

The gift of holy spirit – when we are born again Acts 2:38

The five gift ministries Ephesians 4:8-11

And the gift of healing one of the nine manifestations/operations of the gift of holy spirit. I Cor 12:9

There are actually 39 'charismata' (literally translated as grace gifts or spiritual gifts) listed in Scripture that are specifically named as charismata.

 

[Father Rick]

being born of the devils seed………………………………

Unfortunately, it appears that your theology is still greatly influenced by your previous involvement in the Occult.

Remember that Satan is 'the Father of Lies'. I have worked with several coming out of different branches of the Occult. One of the great difficulties is that because so much of what was experienced was explained with a theology that seemed to fit the experience, when coming to Christ it is often difficult to let go completely of the lies that have been taught. Many of these lies are very subtle, and even seem to 'work', yet distort the truth of scripture.

Several things you say in your post are actually in direct contrast to scripture. The underlying principle that is in error is that man is born without a spirit and does not have one until he is 'born again' either of God or Satan. Scripture teaches that ALL men have a body, soul (mind/will/emotions) and spirit. If you would like, I would be happy to discuss this with you further, but in either a different thread or in pm, so as not to hijack this thread any further.

Pax Christi!

 

[Faithful-Frank]

The Bible says that we speak in tongues as the Spirit gives the Utterance, not as we give the utterance. I have tried to speak in tongues under my own unction but (through the gift of discernment) I knew that it wasn't right.