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Question for Catholics

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NotCertain

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Hi there! :wave: This is my first post on CF, and well, I'm currently not a Catholic, as I left to become non-denominational. I respect all denominations, though I believe Christ as placed me as non-denom for a reason.

I've recently been taking another look at Catholicism. Most of my problems with Catholicism came after reading about the Second Vatican Council. I want to post this with true friendship, because I don't want anyone to think I'm doing it with ill-intent. It's my first post on CF, but I've lurked here before and quite enjoyed much of the answers here.

Can anyone help me understand the encyclical Mortalium Animos by Pius XI and how it relates to modern Catholic teaching . Thank you and God bless!


"2. A similar object is aimed at by some, in those matters which concern the New Law promulgated by Christ our Lord. For since they hold it for certain that men destitute of all religious sense are very rarely to be found, they seem to have founded on that belief a hope that the nations, although they differ among themselves in certain religious matters, will without much difficulty come to agree as brethren in professing certain doctrines, which form as it were a common basis of the spiritual life. For which reason conventions, meetings and addresses are frequently arranged by these persons, at which a large number of listeners are present, and at which all without distinction are invited to join in the discussion, both infidels of every kind, and Christians, even those who have unhappily fallen away from Christ or who with obstinacy and pertinacity deny His divine nature and mission. Certainly such attempts can nowise be approved by Catholics, founded as they are on that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy, since they all in different ways manifest and signify that sense which is inborn in us all, and by which we are led to God and to the obedient acknowledgment of His rule. Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it, and little by little. turn aside to naturalism and atheism, as it is called; from which it clearly follows that one who supports those who hold these theories and attempt to realize them, is altogether abandoning the divinely revealed religion"



"10. So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it. To the one true Church of Christ, we say, which is visible to all, and which is to remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it. During the lapse of centuries, the mystical Spouse of Christ has never been contaminated, nor can she ever in the future be contaminated, as Cyprian bears witness: "The Bride of Christ cannot be made false to her Spouse: she is incorrupt and modest. She knows but one dwelling, she guards the sanctity of the nuptial chamber chastely and modestly."[20] The same holy Martyr with good reason marveled exceedingly that anyone could believe that "this unity in the Church which arises from a divine foundation, and which is knit together by heavenly sacraments, could be rent and torn asunder by the force of contrary wills."[21] For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one,[22] compacted and fitly joined together,[23] it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head"
 
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St_Joseph_Cupertino

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NotCertain said:
"Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it, and little by little. turn aside to naturalism and atheism, as it is called; from which it clearly follows that one who supports those who hold these theories and attempt to realize them, is altogether abandoning the divinely revealed religion"

Hi there!

Peace be with you!

I'm not nearly learned enough to venture a straight answer, but I'll give an example of the above statement:

At my work, we have a lot of different people, and among them, I came to realise that there are some Catholics. This was pleasing to me, since I have only been a Catholic for 6 months.
One day however, we started speaking of Catholocism and religion in general, and it came to light that two of my colleagues claimed to be catholic, but their lives do not show it.
They accepted some of the Catholic doctrine, but rejected others. The guy told me that he takes a little of Catholocism, and a little of other religions, to make something he likes....but he still calls himself Catholic.
This shocked me. I was fresh out of RCIA classes and could not believe it. It did prove the above statement: "in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it, and little by little." It was a sad day for me when I realised that.

Being Catholic means being 100% Catholic. If you leave the door open, you will fall away, little by little. I know...I was there once...trying to incorporate Zen with Christianity! Can you believe!
It will corrupt you slowly untill you have no Christianity left.

Praise God for calling me Home!

Peace in Christ.
 
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Paul S

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The Catholic Church has always taught that she is the one true Church, founded by Jesus. We cannot participate in ecumenical discussions where the real result is intended to be an agreement to disagree. Take the Eucharist, for example - either it is the Body and Blood of Christ, as Catholics believe, or it remains bread and wine, as some Protestants believe. Both of these cannot be true.

We also cannot believe that all religions are equally good. While the Church has always taught that a non-Catholic who is not Catholic through no fault of his own and lives a moral life can go to heaven, this does not mean that all religions save. We are saved only by Jesus through His Catholic Church.

As to the second paragraph, Catholics see the Church as the Body of Christ, and whoever knowingly and wilfully cuts himself off from the Catholic Church cuts himself off from the Body of Christ. Christ has one Body, and established one Church, not many.

Vatican II put a more positive spin on this issue, emphasising the teaching that it is possible for non-Catholics to be saved, but it did not allow Catholics to accept any religion or to believe that those who knowingly and wilfully separate themselves from can go to heaven, since doing this can be the sins of schism, heresy, and apostacy.
 
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NotCertain

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Paul S said:
The Catholic Church has always taught that she is the one true Church, founded by Jesus. We cannot participate in ecumenical discussions where the real result is intended to be an agreement to disagree. Take the Eucharist, for example - either it is the Body and Blood of Christ, as Catholics believe, or it remains bread and wine, as some Protestants believe. Both of these cannot be true.

We also cannot believe that all religions are equally good. While the Church has always taught that a non-Catholic who is not Catholic through no fault of his own and lives a moral life can go to heaven, this does not mean that all religions save. We are saved only by Jesus through His Catholic Church.

As to the second paragraph, Catholics see the Church as the Body of Christ, and whoever knowingly and wilfully cuts himself off from the Catholic Church cuts himself off from the Body of Christ. Christ has one Body, and established one Church, not many.

Vatican II put a more positive spin on this issue, emphasising the teaching that it is possible for non-Catholics to be saved, but it did not allow Catholics to accept any religion or to believe that those who knowingly and wilfully separate themselves from can go to heaven, since doing this can be the sins of schism, heresy, and apostacy.

I don't know, but I read it as saying that separated brethren, as they are not united in the body of Christ (The RC) are not truly members of her. To be united is to be in submission to the Papacy, isn't it?

And the other question, is whether nonCatholics are "more or less good and praiseworthy" ias error isn't a reference to Protestants and Muslims (The Pope said the Muslim religion is beautiful)?
 
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Paul S

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All baptised Protestants are, immediately after their baptism, Catholic, since there is only one Church to be baptised into. Some Protestants fall into the mortal sins of schism, heresy, and apostacy, and separate themselves from the Church. Not all do, however, since mortal sin requires full knowledge and full consent of the will. A person who is raised Protestant and never learns of Catholic teaching is probably not in mortal sin and is thus still in the Church.

The Church does teach that other religions have some truth in them and that some practices of other religions are good. There are things to admire about Islam - they believe in the same God, they pray several times a day, they fast - but we cannot say that Islam is basically just as good as Catholicism. With Protestants, they have much more of the truth than non-Christians, since they believe in Jesus, but they are still missing parts of what Jesus taught us.
 
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Benedicta00

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I don’t know if this answers you question, Not Certain, but in every religion there can be some truth, seeds of truth and some things pertaining to their styli of spirituality that is good and even useful to us that we can even learn from but only the Catholic Church in union with the bishop of Rome is the fullness of the Christian faith that Jesus left for us.

Every non Catholic Christian faith has truth, and believes in one aspect of truth or another. The Lutherans focus on the grace of God and being saved by faith, the Calvin’s, the sovereignty of God, the non denominationals, “Accepting Jesus is enough” but only the Catholic Church contains all of the truths that equal the fullness of truth. That we are not saved by faith alone but faith and works, that God is sovereign but he also allows our cooperation with his grace, and accepting Jesus is enough, but we must first be born again through the waters of baptism before we can do that.

So you see, every faith has some good to it and some truth to it because what ever that good/truth is, it is what the Church of Christ teaches us but only in Christ’s Church that he gave to us will we find all the truths contained to equal the truth.
 
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Rising_Suns

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Consider also, what goes beyond the words of Pope Pius XI; what has been written into canon law by the Magesterium;

The Church's relationship with Muslims, Jews, and other religions;
http://www.christianforums.com/t1176747-the-churchs-relationship-to-the-muslims-jews-and-other-religions.html

The Church's relationship with Protestants and Orthodox;
http://www.christianforums.com/t1176758-the-churchs-relationship-with-protestants-and-orthodox.html

*As you can read, the tone here is slightly different than the words of Pope Pius XI.
 
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NotCertain

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Thank you brother Rising Suns, but I have read the current outline since Vatican II. That is why I posed the question in relation to Pius XI's words.


"10. So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it... it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head."

My question is whether or not VII or Pius XI may have contradicted Church teaching. Thanks brothers!
 
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Rising_Suns

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NotCertain said:
Thank you brother Rising Suns, but I have read the current outline since Vatican II. That is why I posed the question in relation to Pius XI's words.


"10. So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it... it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head."

My question is whether or not VII or Pius XI may have contradicted Church teaching. Thanks brothers!

Brother, peace be with you,
There is no contradiction here, but there is a difference in emphasis. What Pius XI said is ture. As Christ noted, "whoever is not for me, is against me". As is detailed in the CCC, our separated brethren are united (although imperfectly) to the Church, and can certainly find salvation through this union, and although may be formally imperfect, can be more perfect than many "Catholics" who simply wear the title as Catholic. There is by no means a black and white line here.

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" 273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." 274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, 275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity." 276

May the Lord give you His peace!

-Davide
 
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Metanoia02

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NotCertain,

You also must read the encyclical in light the historical context as well. There were many religious movements back during this time that wanted to unite all churches into one big church. It was a time between WWI and WWII, when modernist thought held sway in many spheres. One of them being religion. They thought that if the could universalize all institutions they could avoid the devastation and horror of World War. This included the Christian Faith. What the Pope was reacting to were movements like this that would have normalized all Christian Faith. Alas all these movements were a huge failure, including the League of Nations and in a few short years the world saw the extremes of human cruelty and devastation.
 
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Dream

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hiumble1 said:
Explain to me purgatory.
How it came to be preached, etc.

[not found anywhere in the Bible]

A whole 'nother topic, brother.

To get the most information, to a search on some previous threads about purgatory. This is a question that often comes up in OBOB.
 
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Michelina

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hiumble1 said:
Explain to me purgatory.
How it came to be preached, etc.

[not found anywhere in the Bible]

hi, hiumble!

Your question is off topic.

You are most Welcome on OBOB.

Please read the FAQ Sticky and the Forum Rules Sticky before you post.

You are welcome to fellowship and to ask questions respectfully.
 
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JJM

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I have a question that stems from this and may be in my opinion more at what notcertain may be getting at or maybe not but If the pope is saying at an ecumenical council that Catholics may not partake in the assemblies of non Catholics but now the church is ok with it. Is that not a contradiction. Now I'd like to answer my own question just to see if I'm right hope none minds. That rule was simply a practice at the time to emphasize the separation between Christian churches and that because it was a practice it was simply part of "t"radition thus can be changed. SO is that correct?
 
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