Question for Atheists

[mikeynov]

Sounds like you have it all figured out. And that you have come in contact with some really cool Christian people who really explained the faith to you. You generalize way too much. Do you think it was easy for me to gain my faith? Do you think I have never second guessed my faith? Faith does not begin blind for anyone of any intelligence. It does not grow (at least for me) out of being gullible, or being sold...but rather from experience. I know it might seem like a joke to you, like something so absurd and illogical, and that I have been 'brainwashed' into believing, but when I have been down, I have not been alone. I believe in God not because people convinced me of it, but I have experienced Him and could never go back to a life without Him. I am not stupid. I do not trust people easily. But how could I have so much REAL passion for something that is so 'fake'. I am not lying to myself. I am not faking it like so many out there. Dont generalize. You dont know me at all. There are Christians who reason. I came to Christ through reason. And I can have all the 'facts' in that the greatest minds can give me, and nothing will ever compare to the experience I have had following Christ.

It is not religion to me. Its a personal relationship with God .

I know what it means to believe in God, assuming a priori the conclusion that He existed, and I'm sure Aron does too.

What many people such as yourself don't seem to recognize is that a lot of us self-professed atheists are atheists precisely because we understand the auto-deceptive nature of religious faith and the weird, 'live in a world of your own mind's creation' para-reality that religious belief seems to inflict upon its practitioners. Because many of us had various 'beliefs' in some form of higher power or deity, and came to abandon it because we honestly believe it to be an untenable position.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I have also always wondered this simple fact. You all believe in science correct?

No, I believe in reason. Science is merely one application.

So you should be very familiar with a very simple concept...the law of conservation of matter.

I think you mean conservation of matter and energy.

Now depending on how you believe everything began, big bang then evolution...etc...where did everything come from?

For all of time, the realm of existence (the "universe") always was. This doesn't violate the "law" (BTW, I don't believe in "laws" of science so much as regularities of behavior within contexts), since nothing ever "popped" into existence out of nothing.

How did all this matter get here...the matter for this planet and the rest of the universe.

How did God get here?

Where is the logical explanation for that?

Good question.

 

[Jet Black]

I have gotten the impression from several Atheists I know that you all consider Christians to be closed minded and who generally dont think for themselves? How accurate is the generalization of Atheists attitude towards Christians?

well I am technically agnostic, but closer to atheist. I do not fit into your generalisation.

I have also always wondered this simple fact. You all believe in science correct?

well I do have 2 masters degrees and a PhD so....

So you should be very familiar with a very simple concept...the law of conservation of matter.

there is no such law.

Now depending on how you believe everything began, big bang then evolution...etc...where did everything come from? How did all this matter get here...the matter for this planet and the rest of the universe. Where is the logical explanation for that?

well no such law exists. matter and energy are interconvertible. Energy is conserved, so I suppose I can let you get away with it a little bit. but only a little bit mind.

As for your main question, I do not know how everything got here. I do not even know if that is a meaningful question to ask. All the physical theories we have so far breaks down just after the big bang the numbers are nonsensical) at a planck time, and radii of a planck length. we have not unified quantum mechanics with general relativity yet, so clearly we don't have enough information to make a judgement.

 

[LVdesigns]

I have gotten the impression from several Atheists I know that you all consider Christians to be closed minded and who generally dont think for themselves? How accurate is the generalization of Atheists attitude towards Christians?

Well, some atheists think all theists are stupid and closed minded. I personally don't believe this to be true. History has shown that there are many Christians (and other types of theists) who are extremely intelligent. A person's religion is not a direct indicator of that person's intelligence. I may have plenty of reasons to think that what they believe is false, however, that does not mean the person is unintelligent or closed minded. Just as it is important not to make generalizations about a certain member of a theistic group, it's best not to assume that all atheists view Christians in the same manner. I think some Christians are stupid and closed minded just as I think some atheists are stupid and closed minded; neither group has a monopoly on intelligence.

I have also always wondered this simple fact. You all believe in science correct? So you should be very familiar with a very simple concept...the law of conservation of matter. Now depending on how you believe everything began, big bang then evolution...etc...where did everything come from? How did all this matter get here...the matter for this planet and the rest of the universe. Where is the logical explanation for that?

My basic answer to this is that it is not something which we currently have the ability to concretely answer and is possibly something that humans will never be able to concretely answer. There is A LOT we still don't know about the universe. My stance is that we don't know but there really isn't a reason to assume that some sort of higher power created everything just because it can't be explained in full detail.

I personally think there is probably some sort of infinate quality to the universe. The Big Bang theory doesn't really say that that is the point when everything started, it basically says that's when time started. Plus, there are other theories which expand upon the big bang theory (ie String Theory). But, I don't claim to be an expert on any scientific theory concerning origins. I believe that science is true in the sense that it can lead to the truth, but that doesn't mean that I think every little scientific theory is "truth." That is what is good about science, when contradictory evidence comes to light a theory is either thrown out or altered accordingly; it's a process through which we learn.

 

[Lilandra]

(I am from the the South) a great many religious people close their minds to certain realities they don't want to face. I see on this board and in real life people closing their mind to what sciencesays about origins in favor of a fantasy version of Genesis.

It makes them feel special. They are God's last finest creation in this mythical world.

I think what turns alot of people off to religion is how people enshrine certain beliefs and then silence anyone who disagrees with them. Muslim extremism is an example of this. The country of Turkey teaches Muslim Creationism because of the ability of religious authorities and propagandizers to sway public opinion.

You see a trend here in the U.S. of exactly the same thing. Teach the controversy they say at the same time stirring controversy up themselves. There is no controversy within the scientific community about the theory of evolution.

Most religious people are well meaning. I was a Creationist until a year ago because of family and religious indoctrination and a poor science education.

I had my children in parochial schools and taught in one till recently. The science curriculum even at primary levels was sprinkled liberally with "appears designed" and "fearfully and wonderfully made". Mind you this is 2006 in the U.S. not the 1800s.

I have come to the decision that I don''t want to trust my children's upbringing to random intellectual bigots. I would rather be personally responsible. My real worry is that people will use religion to manipulate my children when they are older to give people their money, vote, or to give religious authorities power.

I am still a Christian because I don't believe there is a convincing reason for me to abandon the core of what Jesus said. Still a Republican too because there wasn't a really good alternative in the last election.

This is my personal opinion. I hope it helps you to think more critically about Christianity and to a lesser degree its effect on science.

I have gotten the impression from several Atheists I know that you all consider Christians to be closed minded and who generally dont think for themselves? How accurate is the generalization of Atheists attitude towards Christians?

I have also always wondered this simple fact. You all believe in science correct? So you should be very familiar with a very simple concept...the law of conservation of matter. Now depending on how you believe everything began, big bang then evolution...etc...where did everything come from? How did all this matter get here...the matter for this planet and the rest of the universe. Where is the logical explanation for that?

 

[awesome liver]

(I am from the the South) a great many religious people close their minds to certain realities they don't want to face. I see on this board and in real life people closing their mind to what sciencesays about origins in favor of a fantasy version of Genesis.

It makes them feel special. They are God's last finest creation in this mythical world.

I think what turns alot of people off to religion is how people enshrine certain beliefs and then silence anyone who disagrees with them. Muslim extremism is an example of this. The country of Turkey teaches Muslim Creationism because of the ability of religious authorities and propagandizers to sway public opinion.

You see a trend here in the U.S. of exactly the same thing. Teach the controversy they say at the same time stirring controversy up themselves. There is no controversy within the scientific community about the theory of evolution.

Most religious people are well meaning. I was a Creationist until a year ago because of family and religious indoctrination and a poor science education.

I had my children in parochial schools and taught in one till recently. The science curriculum even at primary levels was sprinkled liberally with "appears designed" and "fearfully and wonderfully made". Mind you this is 2006 in the U.S. not the 1800s.

I have come to the decision that I don''t want to trust my children's upbringing to random intellectual bigots. I would rather be personally responsible. My real worry is that people will use religion to manipulate my children when they are older to give people their money, vote, or to give religious authorities power.

I am still a Christian because I don't believe there is a convincing reason for me to abandon the core of what Jesus said. Still a Republican too because there wasn't a really good alternative in the last election.

This is my personal opinion. I hope it helps you to think more critically about Christianity and to a lesser degree its effect on science.

ah c'mon. join the dark side. we're awesome. we believe in investing in stem-cell technology, women's rights, civil liberties (we even have a group for said liberties), most of us believe in evolution and in turn, we believe in science to be useful and not to be shunned. we're naturally curious people.

 

[Lilandra]

Your screen name implies that you find liver awesome. I don't find it remotely appealing.

However, one of these I confess is tempting

​

BTW is anyone else saving their replies to knock that accursed Smelly, Shelly Fauna thread down? It was it for me, when he said that medical technology wasn't a factor in his heart attack that God saved him. He would have refused it if he could have. (Sorry )​

ah c'mon. join the dark side. we're awesome. we believe in investing in stem-cell technology, women's rights, civil liberties (we even have a group for said liberties), most of us believe in evolution and in turn, we believe in science to be useful and not to be shunned. we're naturally curious people.

 

[JohnR7]

who generally dont think for themselves?

If someone could think for themselves, then they would give them a radio show somewhere so they could think for others.

 

[ChrisPelletier]

Your screen name implies that you find liver awesome. I don't find it remotely appealing.

Well, you have to try Monkfish liver (also known as Ankimo). If you don't mind that Pate' texture, it is a great dish. You can usually find it at Sushi resturants (it is cooked).

 

[Lilandra]

Now if there ws only a way to make atheism more palatable. You know without trying to forcefeed me that I am both irrational and insane for having faith.

Well, you have to try Monkfish liver (also known as Ankimo). If you don't mind that Pate' texture, it is a great dish. You can usually find it at Sushi resturants (it is cooked).

 

[Aron-Ra]

Sounds like you have it all figured out. And that you have come in contact with some really cool Christian people who really explained the faith to you.

That is correct. I was raised in an exclusively creationist environment where I never met either a non-Christian or a non-creationist until my teen years. And to date, I’ve still met very few of either one. I live in the Bible belt. I’ve personally attended churches of several denominations, and I’ve been having way too many of these discussions and debates online for at least seven years. So I’ve had your faith explained to me by just about every perspective of belief in it.

You generalize way too much.

I didn’t generalize at all. I said that the Christian creed, like that of any religion, is based on faith as opposed to reason, which would be restricted only to that which is rationally probable according to evidence or logic. Faith-based beliefs are independent of that. If you think that is a generalization, then present an exception. What adherent to any religion could you point to who doesn’t base his beliefs on faith (in the assumption of scriptural or spiritual authority) in lieu of evidence?

Do you think it was easy for me to gain my faith? Do you think I have never second guessed my faith?

Would it matter? It has often been explained to me that it is difficult to believe everything in the scriptures. But believe it we must somehow, for the sake of our eternal souls. That’s why I never implied that it was easy. You’re jumping to unwarranted conclusions, and seem to have a history of that.

Faith does not begin blind for anyone of any intelligence. It does not grow (at least for me) out of being gullible, or being sold...but rather from experience.

Yes I know all about that.

“The Persian shows the Zend-Avesta of Zoroaster, the lawgiver of Persia, and calls it the divine law; the Bramin shows the Shaster, revealed, he says, by God to Brama, and given to him out of a cloud; the Jew shows what he calls the law of Moses, given, he says, by God, on the Mount Sinai; the Christian shows a collection of books and epistles, written by nobody knows who, and called the New Testament; and the Mahometan shows the Koran, given, he says, by God to Mahomet: each of these calls itself revealed religion, and the only true Word of God, and this the followers of each profess to believe from the habit of education, and each believes the others are imposed upon.”
--Thomas Paine; The Age of Reason

I know it might seem like a joke to you, like something so absurd and illogical, and that I have been 'brainwashed' into believing,

Yep. That’s the auto-deceptive power of faith.

but when I have been down, I have not been alone. I believe in God not because people convinced me of it, but I have experienced Him

I’ve heard that before.

“If there is a God, I want to see him. It's pointless to believe in something without proof, and Krishna Consciousness and meditation are methods where you can actually obtain God perception. You can actually see God, and hear him, play with Him. It might sound crazy but He is actually there, actually with you.”
--George Harrison of the Beatles

and could never go back to a life without Him.

I’ve hear that before too. Lots of atheists are former-Christians you know? Look at Dan Barker; he spent 19 years as an evangelical minister and missionary, and now he’s the Public Relations Director of the Freedom From Religion Foundation.


And he certainly isn’t alone.


There seem to be lots of good reasons not to believe.

I am not stupid. I do not trust people easily. But how could I have so much REAL passion for something that is so 'fake'.

That’s a very good question. How is it that the Torah, the 20 gospels, the Qur’an, the Kitab-i-Aqdas, the Adi-Granth, the Avestas, the Vedas, the Bhagavad-Gita, and the Book of Mormon –are all declared to be the “absolute truth” and the “revealed word” of the “one true god”, and each claims the others are all deceived?

I am not lying to myself. I am not faking it like so many out there.

Yes you are. That’s what faith is, and that’s what it does. I was a reborn Christian once, many years ago. And for a long time since, I was an occultist. My craft depended on the manipulation and exploitation of faith. I know what it is and how it works.

Dont generalize.

You equate big bang cosmology and evolution to the beliefs of atheism, ignoring the leading scientists in those fields who are Christians, and then you tell me I generalize too much. Nice.

You dont know me at all. There are Christians who reason. I came to Christ through reason.

OK, what was it? I would like to see any sort of logically-supportable or objectively-verifiable evidence to support each of your foundational conclusions;

(1) The idea that an incantation can cause anything to poof out of nothing despite your own citation of the “law of conservation of matter.” I can find references in quantum theory which can account for that. But can you produce magic words that can do the same thing?

(2) The idea that wishes can come true via dreams somehow manipulating reality. Can you demonstrate any psychic or psionic ability to illustrate how the powers mind can alter or direct matter?

(3) When I finally, reluctantly resigned myself to materialism, it was duped since childhood into thinking that Kirlian photography provided objectively-demonstrable, measurable, verifiable evidence of the soul, which I took to be synonymous with the astral forms that are such a big part of eastern religions, new-age paganism, and shaman ritual. But that evidence proved to be yet another sham in a long string of myriad hoaxes set up to deceive believers by taking advantage of their faith. It was a hard realization, especially since I was so happy in my Taoist beliefs to that point, and had certainly accrued more personal experience with them than you could have had as a Christian. It was very hard for me to accept that none of those experiences ever really happened! But they couldn’t have because --they just couldn’t have. I would like very much to embrace Shamanic Taoism, and become a Jedi again. But I can’t believe anything on faith. I need reason instead, something rationally probable according to logic and evidence. If you have that, please share it. What reason do you have to believe either of us has a soul?

(4) Anytime any supernatural anything digs its ghostly mitts into the material plane to effect some physical change, it will pull its arm out dripping with physics; meaning that anything with either creative or manipulative powers on this planet must evidence itself in its operation. In this way, even God will leave some evidence behind. And you say you base your belief on that –rather than on faith. So what evidence do you have to reveal the existence of any god? Then, how can we identify that god as being your god?

And I can have all the 'facts' in that the greatest minds can give me, and nothing will ever compare to the experience I have had following Christ.

If you came to your belief by reason, then you wouldn’t put quotations around the word, ‘facts’.

It is not religion to me. Its a personal relationship with God .

Of course it is. But of course, that’s what all religions believe isn’t it? I mean, I have a dear old friend who worships Bast, the Egyptian cat-goddess. He doesn’t believe in her because someone told him to. He believes in her because she appeared to him in person, visibly manifest, speaking with an audible voice, and even physically tangible. She invited him to serve her, and he was so deeply moved by her presence that he agreed. Now, I’ve known this man for decades, and I don’t doubt his sincerity. I’m sure he really believes this happened, that he met his goddess. But does his conviction mean it really happened? If someone you knew and trusted told you this, would you believe them? I’ll bet you’d dismiss that story right away, and either blame some schizoid complex or “the devil”. So do you really need to wonder why I don’t believe anyone claiming to have “experienced” a personal relationship with their god?

 

[futzman]

ok...i really shouldnt have said that...i didnt pay attention in my last section of physics...so I completely forgot about that...and now I feel stupid...

anyways...it still leaves the question open...where did everything come from in the beginning...you can say energy...but where did that come from? It leads to this endless cycle of questions...all resulting in...where did that come from? Do some believe that everything just is? I am really curious...I am not trying to trap anyone...obviously I do not know nearly enough about science to do so.

My answer is -- who cares? You can argue semantics and context endlessly to no end. If you say god created it all, then where did god come from? So, it's an unanswerable question. I don't base my belief or non-belief in a "god" on speculation or circular arguments. I base it on evidence. And that's why I'm an agnostic (an atheist who would like to believe there is a god) and an "evolutionist".

Futz (still wondering about all those brachiopods...)

 

[awesome liver]

That is correct. I was raised in an exclusively creationist environment where I never met either a non-Christian or a non-creationist until my teen years. And to date, I’ve still met very few of either one. I live in the Bible belt. I’ve personally attended churches of several denominations, and I’ve been having way too many of these discussions and debates online for at least seven years. So I’ve had your faith explained to me by just about every perspective of belief in it.
I didn’t generalize at all. I said that the Christian creed, like that of any religion, is based on faith as opposed to reason, which would be restricted only to that which is rationally probable according to evidence or logic. Faith-based beliefs are independent of that. If you think that is a generalization, then present an exception. What adherent to any religion could you point to who doesn’t base his beliefs on faith (in the assumption of scriptural or spiritual authority) in lieu of evidence?
Would it matter? It has often been explained to me that it is difficult to believe everything in the scriptures. But believe it we must somehow, for the sake of our eternal souls. That’s why I never implied that it was easy. You’re jumping to unwarranted conclusions, and seem to have a history of that.
Yes I know all about that.

“The Persian shows the Zend-Avesta of Zoroaster, the lawgiver of Persia, and calls it the divine law; the Bramin shows the Shaster, revealed, he says, by God to Brama, and given to him out of a cloud; the Jew shows what he calls the law of Moses, given, he says, by God, on the Mount Sinai; the Christian shows a collection of books and epistles, written by nobody knows who, and called the New Testament; and the Mahometan shows the Koran, given, he says, by God to Mahomet: each of these calls itself revealed religion, and the only true Word of God, and this the followers of each profess to believe from the habit of education, and each believes the others are imposed upon.”
--Thomas Paine; The Age of Reason

Yep. That’s the auto-deceptive power of faith.
I’ve heard that before.

“If there is a God, I want to see him. It's pointless to believe in something without proof, and Krishna Consciousness and meditation are methods where you can actually obtain God perception. You can actually see God, and hear him, play with Him. It might sound crazy but He is actually there, actually with you.”
--George Harrison of the Beatles
I’ve hear that before too. Lots of atheists are former-Christians you know? Look at Dan Barker; he spent 19 years as an evangelical minister and missionary, and now he’s the Public Relations Director of the Freedom From Religion Foundation.


And he certainly isn’t alone.


There seem to be lots of good reasons not to believe.
That’s a very good question. How is it that the Torah, the 20 gospels, the Qur’an, the Kitab-i-Aqdas, the Adi-Granth, the Avestas, the Vedas, the Bhagavad-Gita, and the Book of Mormon –are all declared to be the “absolute truth” and the “revealed word” of the “one true god”, and each claims the others are all deceived?
Yes you are. That’s what faith is, and that’s what it does. I was a reborn Christian once, many years ago. And for a long time since, I was an occultist. My craft depended on the manipulation and exploitation of faith. I know what it is and how it works.
You equate big bang cosmology and evolution to the beliefs of atheism, ignoring the leading scientists in those fields who are Christians, and then you tell me I generalize too much. Nice.
OK, what was it? I would like to see any sort of logically-supportable or objectively-verifiable evidence to support each of your foundational conclusions;

(1) The idea that an incantation can cause anything to poof out of nothing despite your own citation of the “law of conservation of matter.” I can find references in quantum theory which can account for that. But can you produce magic words that can do the same thing?

(2) The idea that wishes can come true via dreams somehow manipulating reality. Can you demonstrate any psychic or psionic ability to illustrate how the powers mind can alter or direct matter?

(3) When I finally, reluctantly resigned myself to materialism, it was duped since childhood into thinking that Kirlian photography provided objectively-demonstrable, measurable, verifiable evidence of the soul, which I took to be synonymous with the astral forms that are such a big part of eastern religions, new-age paganism, and shaman ritual. But that evidence proved to be yet another sham in a long string of myriad hoaxes set up to deceive believers by taking advantage of their faith. It was a hard realization, especially since I was so happy in my Taoist beliefs to that point, and had certainly accrued more personal experience with them than you could have had as a Christian. It was very hard for me to accept that none of those experiences ever really happened! But they couldn’t have because --they just couldn’t have. I would like very much to embrace Shamanic Taoism, and become a Jedi again. But I can’t believe anything on faith. I need reason instead, something rationally probable according to logic and evidence. If you have that, please share it. What reason do you have to believe either of us has a soul?

(4) Anytime any supernatural anything digs its ghostly mitts into the material plane to effect some physical change, it will pull its arm out dripping with physics; meaning that anything with either creative or manipulative powers on this planet must evidence itself in its operation. In this way, even God will leave some evidence behind. And you say you base your belief on that –rather than on faith. So what evidence do you have to reveal the existence of any god? Then, how can we identify that god as being your god?
If you came to your belief by reason, then you wouldn’t put quotations around the word, ‘facts’.
Of course it is. But of course, that’s what all religions believe isn’t it? I mean, I have a dear old friend who worships Bast, the Egyptian cat-goddess. He doesn’t believe in her because someone told him to. He believes in her because she appeared to him in person, visibly manifest, speaking with an audible voice, and even physically tangible. She invited him to serve her, and he was so deeply moved by her presence that he agreed. Now, I’ve known this man for decades, and I don’t doubt his sincerity. I’m sure he really believes this happened, that he met his goddess. But does his conviction mean it really happened? If someone you knew and trusted told you this, would you believe them? I’ll bet you’d dismiss that story right away, and either blame some schizoid complex or “the devil”. So do you really need to wonder why I don’t believe anyone claiming to have “experienced” a personal relationship with their god?

have you looked into the church of the flying spaghetti monster?

 

[TheInstant]

And that's why I'm an agnostic (an atheist who would like to believe there is a god)

Wouldn't an atheist who would like to believe there is a god still be an atheist? I've never heard this definition of agnosticism before.

 

[Loudmouth]

But, there are exemplary examples of scientific scholarship inside the Church as well. Germ Theory and the Big Bang like Hydra pointed out.

These theories were not accepted because of theologic consistency. They were accepted because of empirical evidence and testing through the scientific method. Lemaitre's theory would have been for naught if it weren't for Hubble's observations. Germ theory would have been for naught if not for Koch's Postulates. The power of verification through experimentation and predictions is what makes these theories what they are, not their theologic roots. If not for science, germ theory and demon possession would be on equal footing, for example.

I don't think that faith automatically hinders progress. It is a dogmatic adherance to dogma over critical thinking that does this.

I completely agree. Faith is for things unseen. Science is for things that are observable. Faith can not hinder science (or progress) if it is confined to things that can not be tested or approached through science.

 

[Lilandra]

is if when one of the aggresive evangelizers posts something meanspirited like, "you are going to Hell", "I am basically holier than thou"(paraphrasing), or lies about something, other Christians even YECs correct them.

Even if you don't agree with a nonbeliever if you are interested in being a good witness, you could stop watching the train wreck and post something.

You have to understand that some nonbelievers get hardened after being told repeatedly they are godless reprobates. Not that some nonbelievers don't do the same in reverse. Someone has to step up and be a grown up.

That's my opinion. Not that I am in any way a more perfect homan being than anyone else.

 

[awesome liver]

Your screen name implies that you find liver awesome. I don't find it remotely appealing.

However, one of these I confess is tempting

​

BTW is anyone else saving their replies to knock that accursed Smelly, Shelly Fauna thread down? It was it for me, when he said that medical technology wasn't a factor in his heart attack that God saved him. He would have refused it if he could have. (Sorry )​

it's more of a testament to my liver's fortitude throughout my (these) college years. but yeah, liver's gross but braunswager (sp = fubar) is awesome on crackers.

 

[Lilandra]

Cheers!

it's more of a testament to my liver's fortitude throughout my (these) college years. but yeah, liver's gross but braunswager (sp = fubar) is awesome on crackers.

 

[benjdm]

So you should be very familiar with a very simple concept...the law of conservation of matter. Now depending on how you believe everything began, big bang then evolution...etc...where did everything come from? How did all this matter get here...the matter for this planet and the rest of the universe. Where is the logical explanation for that?

If it came from anywhere, I don't know where it came from. There is little evidence on which to form an opinion. It may have just always 'been.'

 

[TheInstant]

it's more of a testament to my liver's fortitude throughout my (these) college years.

I thought it meant you were just really good at life.