Question For All You Eastern Orthodox

[katholikos]

What do you feel are the commonalities, and the differences, between your Marian Doctrines and Catholic Marian Doctrines?


Would you say that there is little difference, or that there is much difference?




EDIT: Traditional Anglicans and other Eastern Rites are welcome to jump in too.

.

 

[Kristos]

The only real doctine we have concerning Mary, is that she is the Theotokos - the God bearer. This was affirmed by ecumenical council in response to the Nestorians who called her Christotokos. Although we affirm the Ever-Virginity of Mary in our services, it's not a doctrine per se. We reject the IC because it doesn't fit our view of original sin. We do not celebrate the Assumption - only the death of Mary (also called the Dormition (Aug 15)). It has never really been discussed here, but we also celebrate the Entrance into the Temple of the Theotokos (Nov 21), the Nativity of the Theotokos (Sep 8) and the Annuciation (Mar 25).

 

[katholikos]

The only real doctine we have concerning Mary, is that she is the Theotokos - the God bearer. This was affirmed by ecumenical council in response to the Nestorians who called her Christotokos. Although we affirm the Ever-Virginity of Mary in our services, it's not a doctrine per se. We reject the IC because it doesn't fit our view of original sin. We do not celebrate the Assumption - only the death of Mary (also called the Dormition (Aug 15)). It has never really been discussed here, but we also celebrate the Entrance into the Temple of the Theotokos (Nov 21), the Nativity of the Theotokos (Sep 8) and the Annuciation (Mar 25).

Okay.
So you agree on: Perpetual Virginity, and the title "Mother of God".
You disagree on: The Immaculate Conception.

But I'm a little fuzzy on this "Dormition". Thats not like the Assumption?

 

[Kristos]

Dormition just means the falling asleep (death). Nobody claims to have seen her Assumed, so we don't say that she was.

 

[katholikos]

Hmmm. Okay.

What do you make of Augustine's quotes that spoke to Mary not being sinful? (Not to turn this into an IC thread. Just asking.) Can your view of original sin be that much different than ours? Wasn't that stuff all hammered out before the big Schism ?

 

[Sphinx777]

Okay.
So you agree on: Perpetual Virginity, and the title "Mother of God".
You disagree on: The Immaculate Conception.

But I'm a little fuzzy on this "Dormition". Thats not like the Assumption?

In Orthodoxy, as in the language of scripture, death is often called a "sleeping" or "falling asleep" (Greek κοίμησις; whence κοιμητήριον > coemetērium > cemetery, a place of sleeping). A prominent example of this is the name of this feast; another is the Dormition of Anna, Mary's mother. The Orthodox believe that Mary, having spent her life after Pentecost supporting and serving the nascent Church, was living in the house of the Apostle John, in Jerusalem, when the Archangel Gabriel revealed to her that her repose would occur three days later. The apostles, scattered throughout the world, are said to have been miraculously transported to be at her side when she died. The sole exception was Thomas, who was characteristically late. He is said to have arrived three days after her death, and asked to see her grave so that he could bid her goodbye. Mary had been buried in Gethsemane, according to her request. When they arrived at the grave, her body was gone, leaving a sweet fragrance. An apparition is said to have confirmed that Christ had taken her body to heaven after her soul and reunited them, as a foretaste of the general resurrection to come. The Dormition of the Theotokos Mary is sometimes called the "Summer Pascha," or "Pascha of the Theotokos." This is because Mary's repose is linked with her passage to heaven in anticipation of the general resurrection and follows in the path created by Christ in his rising, and also because the Dormition fast that precedes the feast resembles that of Great Lent.

The Dormition of the Theotokos is celebrated on August 15 (August 28, N.S. for those following the Julian Calendar), the same calendar day as the Roman Catholic Feast of the Assumption of Mary. The Dormition and the Assumption are different names for the same event, Mary's departure from the earth, although the beliefs are not entirely the same.

The Orthodox Church teaches that Mary died a natural death, like any human being; that her soul was received by Christ upon death; and that her body was resurrected on the third day after her repose, at which time she was taken up, soul and body, into heaven in anticipation of the general resurrection. Her tomb was found empty on the third day. As Bishop Kallistos (Ware) says:

...Orthodox tradition is clear and unwavering in regard to the central point [of the Dormition]: the Holy Virgin underwent, as did her Son, a physical death, but her body — like His — was afterwards raised from the dead and she was taken up into heaven, in her body as well as in her soul. She has passed beyond death and judgement, and lives wholly in the Age to Come. The Resurrection of the Body ... has in her case been anticipated and is already an accomplished fact. That does not mean, however, that she is dissociated from the rest of humanity and placed in a wholly different category: for we all hope to share one day in that same glory of the Resurrection of the Body which she enjoys even now.
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Roman Catholic teaching holds that Mary was "assumed" into heaven in bodily form. Some Catholics agree with the Orthodox that this happened after Mary's death, while some hold that she did not experience death. Pope Pius XII, in his Apostolic constitution, Munificentissimus Deus (1950), which dogmatically defined the Assumption, appears to have left open the question of whether or not Mary actually underwent death in connection with her departure, but alludes to the fact of her death at least five times.

Both churches agree that she was taken up into heaven bodily. The Orthodox beliefs regarding Mary's falling asleep are expressed in the liturgical texts used of the feast of the Dormition (August 15) which is one of the Twelve Great Feasts of the Orthodox Church, and is held by all pious Orthodox Christians; however, this belief has never been formally defined as dogma by the Orthodox Church nor made a precondition of baptism.

The Eastern Catholic observance of the feast corresponds to that of their Orthodox counterparts, whether Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox.

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Dormition of the Theotokos

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[E.C.]

With regards to sin and Mary, I believe it is something like so:

Let us say that the act of opening a door is the act of sinning. When one opens a door, one sins (not saying that opening a door is a sin, but please work with me here). The Roman view I believe is something to the effect of the Theotokos was not able to open doors and thus not ably to sin and thus did not.

However, she did have the 'ability' to open the door, but did not in her life.

Something like that.

 

[katholikos]

...Both churches agree that she was taken up into heaven bodily....

Ahh, so I can add the Assumption to the list of things we agree on ?

With regards to sin and Mary, I believe it is something like so:

Let us say that the act of opening a door is the act of sinning. When one opens a door, one sins (not saying that opening a door is a sin, but please work with me here). The Roman view I believe is something to the effect of the Theotokos was not able to open doors and thus not ably to sin and thus did not.

However, she did have the 'ability' to open the door, but did not in her life.

Something like that.

Sounds pretty fair to me. But you guys think she did "open the door", as it were ?

 

[Anglian]

Dear katholicos,

Yes, we agree on the Assumption, the perpetual virginity and upon venerating her as the Theotokos. The first two however, are not doctrines; the Orthodox Church tends to go in for dogmatic statements rather rarely.

On Original Sin the difference seems, to us, to be this. Rome seems to us to hold the Augustinian view that mankind inherits sin as part of its nature because of the Fall; we all inherit the taint of sin. This is not how the Orthodox understand these things. For us, mankind is made in God's image, and whilst that image was marred by the effects of sin, we are not inherently sinful; we are influenced by the sin in this world where sin holds such sway. But this is a marring of the image, which through baptism and chrismation, we can begin to clean away through His Grace, and which, through the Eucharist and the other sacraments, and through living the Christian life, we can further clear away through a process we call theosis or divinisation.

This being so, we see no need to argue that the Virgin was born without sin, for we are all born without it; but she was, like the rest of us, born into a sinful world. We would hold her behaviour all the more meritorious because, although she could have fallen into the temptation of sin, she did not. If she had been unable to sin, where would be the merit in her not sinning?

Hope that helps a little.

peace,

Anglian

 

[Kristos]

Ahh, so I can add the Assumption to the list of things we agree on ?

I don't think so. I won't reject it, but I don't think there is agreement. Like I said, you won't find any feast day for "the assumption" on an orthodox calendar.

 

[prodromos]

Ahh, so I can add the Assumption to the list of things we agree on ?

I don't think so. I won't reject it, but I don't think there is agreement. Like I said, you won't find any feast day for "the assumption" on an orthodox calendar.

The celebration of the bodily assumption of Mary into heaven is combined with the feast day of the Dormition of the Theotokos. Some small time after Rome inherited this feast day from the Church in the East, they shifted the focus from Mary's Dormition to her Assumption. After centuries they lost the original focus of the feast day completely.

John

 

[katholikos]

Well, there's a couple of points there that I must disagree with, but those points are not the topic of the thread

Still, it seems that the majority of our beliefs are consistant with each other, which is something I had suspected. Thats good.

 

[jckstraw72]

we also wouldnt go for things like Co-Redemptrix and Co-Mediatrix

 

[prodromos]

Well, there's a couple of points there that I must disagree with, but those points are not the topic of the thread.

I'm curious as to what you disagree with and on what basis. If you believe it will derail the thread then do you mind sending me a PM?

John

 

[katholikos]

we also wouldnt go for things like Co-Redemptrix and Co-Mediatrix

I am 99% sure that those are not dogma (yet), so thats okay. But, as a quick opinion, I think you should consider the prefix "co-" as meaning assisting, and not equal-to.

If I bring the gospel to a non-believer, I have assisted in some small way in their redemption. You could say that I was a co-redeemer, not in the sense that I am equal to the redeemer, but rather that I assisted him. After all, a co-pilot is not equal to a pilot in rank; he merely assists him.

Hopefully that helps smooth it out a bit.

I'm curious as to what you disagree with and on what basis......

Well, this: "Rome inherited this feast day from the Church in the East." As a staunch Catholic who is convinced that the authority of the pope was well establshed long before the east/west split, the perception that Rome "inherits" anything from local churches is sort of a wrong kind of spin for me. But, like I said, thats off topic. And I'm sure there are lots of threads on the papacy and authority. Anyhoo, no biggie.

 

[Rhamiel]

Let us say that the act of opening a door is the act of sinning. When one opens a door, one sins (not saying that opening a door is a sin, but please work with me here). The Roman view I believe is something to the effect of the Theotokos was not able to open doors and thus not ably to sin and thus did not.

However, she did have the 'ability' to open the door, but did not in her life

I do not think that Gods grace took away Mary's free will, I will have to look into it some more

 

[prodromos]

Well, this: "Rome inherited this feast day from the Church in the East." As a staunch Catholic who is convinced that the authority of the pope was well establshed long before the east/west split, the perception that Rome "inherits" anything from local churches is sort of a wrong kind of spin for me. But, like I said, thats off topic. And I'm sure there are lots of threads on the papacy and authority. Anyhoo, no biggie.

There was no spin in my post. The fact that the feast day of the Dormition was not established in Rome until some time after it had already been celebrated in the East is well documented, as is the fact that less than a century after establishing the feast day, Rome changed its name to the feast day of the Assumption. All I posted were the facts, and really had not the slightest intention of commenting on Papal Authority. If these facts run contrary to the view of Papal Authority you hold to, that is your problem.
As I am snatching 5 min before taking my daughter to swimming training in the morning, I don't have time to give references, however if you go to books.google.com and search for "Rome dormition", I'm sure you will find plenty to sink your teeth into.

John

 

[MoNiCa4316]

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[MoNiCa4316]

Do the Orthodox also believe that Mary is our Mother?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Sphinx777

...Both churches agree that she was taken up into heaven bodily....
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Where exactly in the Bible does it say Mary went bodily in to heaven?