Question for Adventists

[gabriele]

Hi I have been fellowshipping with Adventists on the net and here at the local SDA church for a while now. I really like and admire that you choose to keep the sabbath, as all Christians should do.

So what has kept me from fully becoming an Adventist? Well, I could never believe that when we die, that our spirits do not either go to be punished or to be with the Lord. I guess this scripture proves that there is no soul sleep (IMO)


Revelation 6
9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"


If these people are soul-sleeping, how is it that they are talking? Also, for me, soul-sleep is disproven by the lazerus passage, which to me is not a parable because Jesus never used actual names in parables - here, he identifies real people in a real and truthful situation.




That aside, I was wondering if it is possible for one to become an Adventist and yet disagree with some of the doctrines? The doctrine of soul sleep and the end-times view of adventists are the things I disagree with (for example, I believe in an earthly, millienial temple)

thank you, gabriele

 

[happywiththelord]

Gabriele, welcome and thanks for the post. i unfortunatly would have to answer your question with a no. Just like any church, if you disagree with some of the doctrine, i am sure they would not allow you to be a member. I have a question for you. How much study have you done on the state of the dead?? There is a person on this fourm, named PaleHorse, who has made a thread in the sda forum, on this topic. i encourgage you to check it out!! It is very good. i will give you the link. hopefully it works, i am not very good at this type of thing!! but if it doesnt, just scan through the sda forum until you come up to the state of the dead by palehorse.

thanks again for the question. I know you asked 2 questions. i will cover this one right now. please, go check it out!!


http://www.christianforums.com/t1959557-our-view-of-the-state-of-the-dead-part-1-of-5.html

 

[PaleHorse]

Hi I have been fellowshipping with Adventists on the net and here at the local SDA church for a while now. I really like and admire that you choose to keep the sabbath, as all Christians should do.

So what has kept me from fully becoming an Adventist? Well, I could never believe that when we die, that our spirits do not either go to be punished or to be with the Lord. I guess this scripture proves that there is no soul sleep (IMO)


Revelation 6
9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"


If these people are soul-sleeping, how is it that they are talking? Also, for me, soul-sleep is disproven by the lazerus passage, which to me is not a parable because Jesus never used actual names in parables - here, he identifies real people in a real and truthful situation.


That aside, I was wondering if it is possible for one to become an Adventist and yet disagree with some of the doctrines? The doctrine of soul sleep and the end-times view of adventists are the things I disagree with (for example, I believe in an earthly, millienial temple)

thank you, gabriele

Well, the short answer is no - for the two doctrines you cite (state of the dead and end times) are addressed by the 28 Fundamental beliefs of the church, and they (along with the 13 commitments needed for baptism into the church) constitute the minimum requirements of all church members.

With that said, I would encourage to study those two topics closely. In fact, both of them have been addressed in this forum. Maybe the answers you'll find here might help. Here are some of the links you may find of interest on these topics:

• State of the Dead (post #4 talks about the Lazarus parable particularly)
  • this is the longest study I've ever posted but it is detailed and will answer just about every argument I've heard concerning what happens after we die
• An essay about the biblical use of "for ever" (this also gets into the question of hell-fire)
• An essay about the 7-year Tribulation which touches upon the Millenial Temple briefly

And for other reading (or clarification of what was said in those first links):
A page that has a bunch of reliable Adventist information

 

[gabriele]

Gabriele, welcome and thanks for the post. i unfortunatly would have to answer your question with a no. Just like any church, if you disagree with some of the doctrine, i am sure they would not allow you to be a member. I have a question for you. How much study have you done on the state of the dead?? There is a person on this fourm, named PaleHorse, who has made a thread in the sda forum, on this topic. i encourgage you to check it out!! It is very good. i will give you the link. hopefully it works, i am not very good at this type of thing!! but if it doesnt, just scan through the sda forum until you come up to the state of the dead by palehorse.

thanks again for the question. I know you asked 2 questions. i will cover this one right now. please, go check it out!!


http://www.christianforums.com/t1959557-our-view-of-the-state-of-the-dead-part-1-of-5.html[/QUOTE]



Hello and thank you for answering,

Yes I actually have done much studying on the state of both the dead and those who die in the Lord - two very different scenarios. I see soul-sleep as a minor disagreement - much like OSAS.

It would be too bad if the SDA'a would not accept me if I could not agree to that one teaching.
I suppose I could just keep my opinion to myself - after all, I read of a SDA pastor who believes Miss White plagerized most of her writings, yet he is still SDA. I know nothing of Miss White, so I won't comment on that. I am sure she wrote some very nice material, but the Bible is always my only authority. I would read her writings, though, perhaps sometime after I am done reading "Experiencing God."


gabriele

 

[happywiththelord]

Amen sister. The Bible is the only authority we go by!!!!! I will say that all day long. Ellen White wrote books, from inspiration, that clarify the Bible. But Adventists believe the Bible first above all things.

 

[gabriele]

Well, the short answer is no - for the two doctrines you cite (state of the dead and end times) are addressed by the 28 Fundamental beliefs of the church, and they (along with the 13 commitments needed for baptism into the church) constitute the minimum requirements of all church members.

With that said, I would encourage to study those two topics closely. In fact, both of them have been addressed in this forum. Maybe the answers you'll find here might help. Here are some of the links you may find of interest on these topics:

• State of the Dead (post #4 talks about the Lazarus parable particularly)
  • this is the longest study I've ever posted but it is detailed and will answer just about every argument I've heard concerning what happens after we die
• An essay about the biblical use of "for ever" (this also gets into the question of hell-fire)
• An essay about the 7-year Tribulation which touches upon the Millenial Temple briefly

And for other reading (or clarification of what was said in those first links):

A page that has a bunch of reliable Adventist information

I will look at those links - but I will never change my view on soul-sleep or the end-times. I would have to lie to myself. But I will read it anyway.

Could you adress the revelation 6:9 scripture I gave, quickly?

thanks gabriele

 

[gabriele]

Amen sister. The Bible is the only authority we go by!!!!! I will say that all day long. Ellen White wrote books, from inspiration, that clarify the Bible. But Adventists believe the Bible first above all things.

Ellen wrote her books the same way the people wrote the Bible - by inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

gabriele

 

[PaleHorse]

I agree, the Bible and the Bible alone should be the standard by which any doctrine is established; which answers the important point you made in your post regarding the pastor who wrote against Ellen White. EGW's writings are not on the same level as the Bible and they never will be - they act as a magnifying glass to the scriptures but it is the Bible that establishes the doctrine. As such, this pastor could still be SDA and not accept the writings of EGW (though I believe he is doing himself a huge dis-service in discarding her writings, but that is just my opinion).
If you look at the information in those links I posted you will see I establish the doctrines of state of the dead (and others) using only the Bible.

Here is the problem that you will face if you want to become Adventist yet do not understand our view on this topic, this view is not an independant entity - it finds its way into other truths that you would have to abandon or disregard in a kind of domino affect. Allow me to explain; believing that there is a human conscious, thinking, independant spirit opens the door to believing in the possibility of communicating with that spirit - which leads to a belief in occult practices that are contrary to the Bible's teachings. See what I mean?

 

[gabriele]

Maybe I go into greater detail about my beliefs. I thought they matched SDA on some levels. Oh well maybe it's just me


I believe in annihilation (probably satan will be the only one burning forever)

I believe we must keep all biblical feasts and the sabbath


I believe that the foot of Jesus will touch the mount of olives and he will be here for a thousand years (revelation 20:4) and everyone who does not get resurrected at this time will experience the second death - those who are saved will rule and reign with Christ for the millinium, and Christ will have his throne in Jerusalem.

One reason why I believe in an earthly temple is because the book of ezekial goes into such great detail about how to create this temple -actually, the newly formed Sanhedrin in Israel is preparing to construct it - very exciting!

God made many promises to the Jewish people and He isn't going to let them down. I was quite surprised when I heard Doug Batchelor (Amazing Facts) say "there isn't going to be 144,000 little Jews running around preaching the gospel" during the end times. I know he didn't mean it, but it sounded anti Semitic. We have to be very careful not to forget the promises God made to the Jewish people, lest a spirit of antiSemtism comes over us unawares.
When it comes to the antiChrist, I am not sure if it is a real man or a government that controls people during the Tribulation.

I believe that when people die, they either go to be tormented - as they justly deserve - or to be with the Lord, which is better by far! I remember hearing the testimony of a girl who tried to kill herself and she went into complete darkness, where it was very cold and she could hear people crying. Thankfully she was brought back to life by God's graces. I also know of a man who died and came thisclose to going to hell - he would tell you that he felt the heat and heard the screams. I believe in near-death experiences, for even the Bible contains a testimony of one, from Paul's own mouth.


Well I have to take a break but I will be back later!

gabrielle

 

[PaleHorse]

I will look at those links - but I will never change my view on soul-sleep or the end-times. I would have to lie to myself. But I will read it anyway.

Could you adress the revelation 6:9 scripture I gave, quickly?

thanks gabriele

Sure, happy to do so:
Revelation 6
9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?

One thing we must bear in mind when reading Revelation is the highly figurative language being used in it. We both know that Revelation talks of beasts (which are symbolic) coming out of the waters (which is also symbolic), there are no literal white, red, black, and pale horses in heaven, as such, we must be very careful on what we take literally and what we take symbolically from those texts.

When we look at Rev 6:9-10 we find souls under the alter. Is this symbolic or literal? Well, my first question would be why are souls being stuffed under an alter? In short, apocalyptic pictures are not meant to be photographs of actual realities. John ws not given a view of what heaven is actually like - he was being given information of the final judgment.
So, what is the symbolic meaning behind this verse? To know that answer we need to look at the earthly tabernacle's functions since it was pattern of the heavenly sanctuary:
In the OT we find that the blood of sacrificed animals was poured out at the base of the alter (Lev 4:7, 18, 25, 30). The blood contained the soul (Lev 17:11) of the innocent victim that was offered as the atoning sacrifice to God on behalf of penitent sinners. Thus, the souls of the martyrs are seen under the alter to signify that symbolically they had been sacrificed upon the alter and their blood has been poured at the base. And what do the souls under the alter state? "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"
I'm sure you see the symbolic connections being established here so I won't blabber on. The point is, those souls are symbolic and not literal.

 

[PaleHorse]

I believe in annihilation (probably satan will be the only one burning forever)

Cool - we agree here. But to clarify one point, Satan will burn the longest but even that won't be for the ceaseless ages of eternity.

I believe we must keep all biblical feasts and the sabbath.

Adventists do not keep the feasts. I know that is a growing argument within the church - but the bottom line is that the feasts were fulfilled by Christ for they were all established to point towards His first coming , not His second one.

I believe that the foot of Jesus will touch the mount of olives...

Yes.

...and he will be here for a thousand years (revelation 20:4)...

No.

...and everyone who does not get resurrected at this time will experience the second death - those who are saved will rule and reign with Christ for the millinium, and Christ will have his throne in Jerusalem.

The reign occurs in the New Jerusalem which prior to it coming to earth.

One reason why I believe in an earthly temple is because the book of ezekial goes into such great detail about how to create this temple -actually, the newly formed Sanhedrin in Israel is preparing to construct it - very exciting!

It won't happen. Remember Christ's words in Matt 23:38 - He left their temple desolate. We are the temple of God (1 Cor 3:16,17 2 Cor 6:16), not some brick and mortar building.
On a side note; only the Jews in the US say that the temple will be rebuilt. Rabbis in Israel are getting angry with the U.S. rabbis for continuing to push the notion that the temple will be rebuilt. What is there now? The huge Muslim synagogue. Do you realize what kind of all-out war would ensure if the Jews where to start tearing down the Muslim synagogue to build their temple? There are over a billion Muslims world-wide - the Jews would never get the first brick in place before those Muslims over-ran them. Besides, Christ said the temple is desolate and would never be rebuilt; I think Christ knew what He was talking about.

God made many promises to the Jewish people and He isn't going to let them down. I was quite surprised when I heard Doug Batchelor (Amazing Facts) say "there isn't going to be 144,000 little Jews running around preaching the gospel" during the end times. I know he didn't mean it, but it sounded anti Semitic.

Of course not - Doug is Jewish.

We have to be very careful not to forget the promises God made to the Jewish people, lest a spirit of antiSemtism comes over us unawares.
When it comes to the antiChrist, I am not sure if it is a real man or a government that controls people during the Tribulation.

There won't be a 7-year tribulation.

I believe that when people die, they either go to be tormented - as they justly deserve - or to be with the Lord, which is better by far!

Then what is Judgment Day for?

I remember hearing the testimony of a girl who tried to kill herself and she went into complete darkness, where it was very cold and she could hear people crying. Thankfully she was brought back to life by God's graces.

I would have to say she wasn't dead. She may have been close to death but not actually dead. Only Christ has ever come back from the dead.

I also know of a man who died and came thisclose to going to hell - he would tell you that he felt the heat and heard the screams. I believe in near-death experiences, for even the Bible contains a testimony of one, from Paul's own mouth.

Near-death does not equate actual-death. And I'd like to see those verses from Paul that you mention.

Well I have to take a break but I will be back later!

gabrielle

God bless you!!! See ya soon!

 

[TrustAndObey]

Gabriele, I am very good friends with a Messianic and she is actually one of the people that gave me excellent scripture to prove that a person (soul) that dies, sleeps in the grave until the resurrection at Christ's coming.

You are only the second Messianic I have spoken with that doesn't believe a person (soul) sleeps in the grave, so I'm a little confused. Is that not a standard teaching in the Messianic churches? Or is it something you can decide upon on an individual basis like Seventh Day Baptists?

PaleHorse and I put together an excellent question-type essay about what the soul and spirit is. Hopefully he will post it today. Genesis 2:7 says a person is a soul basically. In fact, the Bible tells us a soul can lie, a soul can eat literal food, a soul can be humbled with fasting, a soul can touch objects, a soul can bleed, a soul can be destroyed, and a soul can DIE.

Job's spirit was in his NOSTRILS and there are several verses that show a spirit is the breath we take in. Without it we are dead and our body is no longer a soul.

Maybe we should get to some common ground about what a soul IS before we try to go any further? You mentioned, though, that you will never change your mind....so maybe we are at an impasse?

 

[SassySDA]

Maybe I go into greater detail about my beliefs. I thought they matched SDA on some levels. Oh well maybe it's just me


I believe in annihilation (probably satan will be the only one burning forever)

I believe we must keep all biblical feasts and the sabbath


I believe that the foot of Jesus will touch the mount of olives and he will be here for a thousand years (revelation 20:4) and everyone who does not get resurrected at this time will experience the second death - those who are saved will rule and reign with Christ for the millinium, and Christ will have his throne in Jerusalem.

One reason why I believe in an earthly temple is because the book of ezekial goes into such great detail about how to create this temple -actually, the newly formed Sanhedrin in Israel is preparing to construct it - very exciting!

God made many promises to the Jewish people and He isn't going to let them down. I was quite surprised when I heard Doug Batchelor (Amazing Facts) say "there isn't going to be 144,000 little Jews running around preaching the gospel" during the end times. I know he didn't mean it, but it sounded anti Semitic. We have to be very careful not to forget the promises God made to the Jewish people, lest a spirit of antiSemtism comes over us unawares.
When it comes to the antiChrist, I am not sure if it is a real man or a government that controls people during the Tribulation.

I believe that when people die, they either go to be tormented - as they justly deserve - or to be with the Lord, which is better by far! I remember hearing the testimony of a girl who tried to kill herself and she went into complete darkness, where it was very cold and she could hear people crying. Thankfully she was brought back to life by God's graces. I also know of a man who died and came thisclose to going to hell - he would tell you that he felt the heat and heard the screams. I believe in near-death experiences, for even the Bible contains a testimony of one, from Paul's own mouth.


Well I have to take a break but I will be back later!

gabrielle

I believe in annihilation (probably satan will be the only one burning forever)

I believe we must keep all biblical feasts and the sabbath


I believe this is what the messianic message is, it really has nothing to do with Adventists.

Adventists, true General Conference Seventh-day Adventists do NOT believe in keeping the feasts. Jesus fulfilled them all, and it would be a "slap in His face" to continue keeping them. Why? Because to do so negates the sacrifice He made for us all. I am not intending to inflame with that statement...it's merely the truth as I see it, and I believe the others would pretty much agree. Remember, before you respond that as a non-Adventist, site rules state that you CANNOT debate in this thread.

Secondly, no one in the church that I know of believes that Satan will burn forever, anymore than we believe the wicked will.

Dear, dear Gabrielle. You really need to read and study the bible better, because you aren't coming close to any of the "Truth" SDA's follow.

I can tell you from my own churches standpoint, that if you keep the feasts, and you don't believe in some of the fundamental belief's of the church, you would not be permitted to join. I have spoken with my pastor about this very thing, out of curiosity when I started to see a lot of SDA's talking about "keeping the feasts". We did a bible study again, on this topic together, and I asked him what he would do if "feast keepers" (SDA's who, for whatever reason, begin to believe it's biblical to keep them) came and wanted to join our church. He told me that they would be welcome to come, but if they started talking about keeping the feasts, etc., they would be asked not to. If they continued to do that, they would be asked to leave the church, if they were actual SDA church members from another area, he would suggest they go back to their home church. If they became too disruptive, they could be disfellowshipped. His point was that he would work with them, they would be welcome to come and worship in our church, and he would try, even, to help them see the grave error they were involving themselves in. But they could not join OUR particular church.

I want to point out also, that this line of thinking, what I just posted above, would hold true for ANY denomination. RC's, for instance would not allow you to become a catholic if you told them you didn't believe in the confessional, or that communion is literally the ingesting of Christ's body. Some Pentecostal churches, wouldn't welcome you as a member if you didn't believe in speaking in tongues, and those are just two denominations, it would take me hours to list all of them.

I am an SDA BECAUSE I believe in the doctrine and the fundamental belief's of our church, not INSPITE of. I can worship my God ANYWHERE. I worshipped Him from home for MANY years because years ago I had become discouraged and gave up on attending a church anywhere because of their MAN-MADE doctrines. So I stopped going. I had never heard of Seventh-day Adventists until just last year. I studied them, AND the bible at great length. I could find NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING that they were doing or promoting to be contrary to scripture. I felt I had finally come home. That's how everyone should feel about their church home.

As for Ellen White, and I have been through this before on another post, just last evening, I believe she was an inspired messenger of God. Her beautifully written material ENHANCES scripture for me, it does NOT, nor would it EVER take the place of it.

Ellen White would not like all of the fuss over her that some show. She was ADAMANT that SCRIPTURE COMES FIRST. We aren't even supposed to begin reading her works until we are studied and well-versed in scripture. If one tries to read her books WITHOUT being knowledgeable of scripture, the books would quite possibly confuse them. If Ellen White had ever heard someone equate her writings as being as authoritative as the bible, she would probably, (as my grandmother would have done) taken a broom to them.

From what I have read in all of your posts, you don't "believe as SDA's do", I really don't know why you would want to become a member. Especially since your icon indicates "messianic". I'm confused is all, maybe you could help me understand that.

You wouldn't be happy as a Seventh-day Adventist, because we do NOT believe in keeping the feasts, and I really don't know where you got that from. I'd be curious to know that as well. Remember too, that just because someone says they are SDA doesn't mean that they are, or that they adhere to the fundamental beliefs. If they don't, they don't speak for the church.

God Bless you in your search for the Truth.

 

[TrustAndObey]

The Hebrew word "nephesh" is translated to say "soul" in the Bible. HOWEVER, it is also translated (the exact same word mind you) to "dead body" several times in the Bible!

 

[SassySDA]

The Hebrew word "nephesh" is translated to say "soul" in the Bible. HOWEVER, it is also translated (the exact same word mind you) to "dead body" several times in the Bible!

Exactly! SISTA!

 

[gabriele]

The Hebrew word "nephesh" is translated to say "soul" in the Bible. HOWEVER, it is also translated (the exact same word mind you) to "dead body" several times in the Bible!

Well, if we were to take all of those definitions and tried to make them all fit different passages, then we would just get confused - I would be thinking, boy, did God create us to be "dead bodies?"

When it comes to Hebrew words, I would consult a Jewish Messianic Rabbi who has studied Torah and Hebrew and who actually speaks the language, for help in understanding certain passages.

I am very wary when people who do not speak the language try and teach that language.

gabriele

 

[gabriele]

I believe in annihilation (probably satan will be the only one burning forever)

I believe we must keep all biblical feasts and the sabbath


I believe this is what the messianic message is, it really has nothing to do with Adventists.

Adventists, true General Conference Seventh-day Adventists do NOT believe in keeping the feasts. Jesus fulfilled them all, and it would be a "slap in His face" to continue keeping them. Why? Because to do so negates the sacrifice He made for us all. I am not intending to inflame with that statement...it's merely the truth as I see it, and I believe the others would pretty much agree. Remember, before you respond that as a non-Adventist, site rules state that you CANNOT debate in this thread.

Secondly, no one in the church that I know of believes that Satan will burn forever, anymore than we believe the wicked will.

Dear, dear Gabrielle. You really need to read and study the bible better, because you aren't coming close to any of the "Truth" SDA's follow.

I can tell you from my own churches standpoint, that if you keep the feasts, and you don't believe in some of the fundamental belief's of the church, you would not be permitted to join. I have spoken with my pastor about this very thing, out of curiosity when I started to see a lot of SDA's talking about "keeping the feasts". We did a bible study again, on this topic together, and I asked him what he would do if "feast keepers" (SDA's who, for whatever reason, begin to believe it's biblical to keep them) came and wanted to join our church. He told me that they would be welcome to come, but if they started talking about keeping the feasts, etc., they would be asked not to. If they continued to do that, they would be asked to leave the church, if they were actual SDA church members from another area, he would suggest they go back to their home church. If they became too disruptive, they could be disfellowshipped. His point was that he would work with them, they would be welcome to come and worship in our church, and he would try, even, to help them see the grave error they were involving themselves in. But they could not join OUR particular church.

I want to point out also, that this line of thinking, what I just posted above, would hold true for ANY denomination. RC's, for instance would not allow you to become a catholic if you told them you didn't believe in the confessional, or that communion is literally the ingesting of Christ's body. Some Pentecostal churches, wouldn't welcome you as a member if you didn't believe in speaking in tongues, and those are just two denominations, it would take me hours to list all of them.

You wouldn't be happy as a Seventh-day Adventist, because we do NOT believe in keeping the feasts, and I really don't know where you got that from. I'd be curious to know that as well. Remember too, that just because someone says they are SDA doesn't mean that they are, or that they adhere to the fundamental beliefs. If they don't, they don't speak for the church.

God Bless you in your search for the Truth.

I certainly do not want to debate whether or not you should keep a feast anymore than you would want to debate nonsabbatarians to keep the sabbath. It is a personal convinction for you. Some of my adventists friends were very open to keeping the Passover and greatly enjoyed it! It enriched their lives. I never try and convert anyone to sabbath keeping or feast keeping - I urge them to keep the commandments, hoping that God will show them that Torah are commandments, just as much as the ten are. The Laws of God are supposed to unite us, never divide, and unfortunately, sometimes they divide us - we sometimes look down on others whom we see as less obedient.

I first thought that adventists kept the feasts because they always talk about keeping God's commandments - aren't the commandments to keep the feasts just as valid as the commandment to keep the sabbath? To me, yes, God wants all the commandments kept that we are able to, the ten and the Mosiac Law - for Jesus Himself declared that we should obey them in Matthew 5:17.

I have not met a Messianic who believes in annilhilation; but I have met SDA's that do, and I am glad that they do.


I would never claim to know all Truth, but I think that I have a willing heart. I want to obey God, not the doctrines of man. The SDA'a are like any other group of believers out there - they gather in unity over what they believe, and not one of us has a monopoly on truth. But God sees our heart. I do not want to know "SDA" truth, but simply God's truth.

I felt that God was leading me to the adventist church for a certain reason - perhaps because there is no messianic synagogue here and he wanted me to fellowship with sabbath keepers like myself.

I guess I could never be able to join, but they like me and always urge me to come back. So, I will. We must keep unity at all costs, and never let out personal opinions divide us.

thanks for taking the time to listen to my questions. I guess I realize now that I cannot officially join the SDA's, but that's ok too.

gabriele

 

[PaleHorse]

When it comes to Hebrew words, I would consult a Jewish Messianic Rabbi who has studied Torah and Hebrew and who actually speaks the language, for help in understanding certain passages.

I am very wary when people who do not speak the language try and teach that language.

gabriele

And you would get two replies depending on which branch of Judaism the rabbi was from. One rabbi would agree with you, another with us.

You see, during the intertestimental period (the roughly 400 years that fall between the writings of the OT and NT) Israel was invaded and occupied by the greeks. The greeks brought with them their Hellenistic teaching of the dual human (the soul being a seperate entity from the body). Many Jews were influenced by the greek teaching of Plato and assimilated this teaching into their beliefs. On the other hand, there was another group of Jews that shunned the pagan teaching and to this day still hold true to the historic view the Bible teaches. So no, asking a rabbi is not the answer to our quandry.

I don't believe TrustAndObey was trying to teach us Hebrew, she was merely showing us where our English word for soul comes from and the many ways in which nephesh was translated into English.

 

[gabriele]

Gabriele, I am very good friends with a Messianic and she is actually one of the people that gave me excellent scripture to prove that a person (soul) that dies, sleeps in the grave until the resurrection at Christ's coming.

You are only the second Messianic I have spoken with that doesn't believe a person (soul) sleeps in the grave, so I'm a little confused. Is that not a standard teaching in the Messianic churches? Or is it something you can decide upon on an individual basis like Seventh Day Baptists?

PaleHorse and I put together an excellent question-type essay about what the soul and spirit is. Hopefully he will post it today. Genesis 2:7 says a person is a soul basically. In fact, the Bible tells us a soul can lie, a soul can eat literal food, a soul can be humbled with fasting, a soul can touch objects, a soul can bleed, a soul can be destroyed, and a soul can DIE.

Job's spirit was in his NOSTRILS and there are several verses that show a spirit is the breath we take in. Without it we are dead and our body is no longer a soul.

Maybe we should get to some common ground about what a soul IS before we try to go any further? You mentioned, though, that you will never change your mind....so maybe we are at an impasse?

Remember when Jesus told the man whose father had just died, "Let the dead bury their dead"? I think that in God's eyes, a "dead soul" is one that is not connected to God - they can be alive in their flesh but have a dead soul.

The messianic community is diverse and there is no set leader or doctrine, however, we all believe that Torah must be obeyed, that Jesus is coming back to reign for 1000 years, and that their will be an earthly temple in which he will reign. The OT says that the Messiah's reign will be from sea to sea, all over the earth - that has never been accomplished. It will be when he returns.

Some messianics probably do believe in soul sleep, but most I know believe that when you die, you go to be with Messiah or to torments.

gabriele

 

[gabriele]

And you would get two replies depending on which branch of Judaism the rabbi was from. One rabbi would agree with you, another with us.

You see, during the intertestimental period (the roughly 400 years that fall between the writings of the OT and NT) Israel was invaded and occupied by the greeks. The greeks brought with them their Hellenistic teaching of the dual human (the soul being a seperate entity from the body). Many Jews were influenced by the greek teaching of Plato and assimilated this teaching into their beliefs. On the other hand, there was another group of Jews that shunned the pagan teaching and to this day still hold true to the historic view the Bible teaches. So no, asking a rabbi is not the answer to our quandry.

I don't believe TrustAndObey was trying to teach us Hebrew, she was merely showing us where our English word for soul comes from and the many ways in which nephesh was translated into English.

Oh, I didn't think she was trying to teach Hebew either - she probably got her information from a concordance.
Please note that I said "messianic rabbi" - one that believes Yeshua is the Messiah. Those people who know the language would be excellent to learn Hebrew from.

gabriele