Question concerning relations with other Jews

[Henaynei]

As for your other question/statement, Chuva is right. A Jew who converts to another religion is always going to be a Jew. However, he will be an apostate Jew.

(Mods...please delete post if I've crossed the line)

according to the Supreme Court of Israel this is not so - they have denied citizenship to Observant Jews who also believed Yeshua is THE Messiah - the court agreed that these folks are/were not Christians but denied that they were Jewish - in spite of the fact that both were born from long Jewish lineages and that they were also Observant.

What is so, is not always so.

 

[Talmidah]

according to the Supreme Court of Israel this is not so - they have denied citizenship to Observant Jews who also believed Yeshua is THE Messiah - the court agreed that these folks are/were not Christians but denied that they were Jewish - in spite of the fact that both were born from long Jewish lineages and that they were also Observant.

That is different from halacha though. A person born of a Jewish mother will always be a Jew, whether apostate or not. If they were to renounce their belief in Yeshua and return to Torah Judaism, they would not be required to convert to Judaism. For purposes of aliyah, yes it was decided that a Jew is a person who was born of a Jewish mother, or a convert to Judaism, and is not a member of another religion. But again, that decision did not change halacha.

 

[Shy21]

Would that Change your view of Messianics any?

Probably How do you think I view Messianics? Just because I disagree with them doesnt mean I dislike or think they are negative people. I love Messianics just like I love my sister or brothers. The ones I have met seem to be nice and honest. I just dont think we should worship together because we dont believe Jesus is YHVH or anybody for that matter. But I still love you tho

 

[Tishri1]

Probably How do you think I view Messianics? Just because I disagree with them doesnt mean I dislike or think they are negative people. I love Messianics just like I love my sister or brothers. The ones I have met seem to be nice and honest. I just dont think we should worship together because we dont believe Jesus is YHVH or anybody for that matter. But I still love you tho

I love you too

 

[DavidHaCohen]

Oy, no!
But I do believe that those Jews who believe in Jesus and yet choose to remain Jewish should be welcomed in our shuls and communities and should not be looked down on. As long as they don't try to convert anyone, of course.

In a nutshell, they deserve the same treatment Chabad meshichists get.

Dave

Do you believe we should go to churchs and worship with Messianics who believes/worship in Jesus? Just curious in knowing.

 

[Shy21]

Oy, no!
But I do believe that those Jews who believe in Jesus and yet choose to remain Jewish should be welcomed in our shuls and communities and should not be looked down on. As long as they don't try to convert anyone, of course.

In a nutshell, they deserve the same treatment Chabad meshichists get.

Dave

Oh Ok. I thought you were saying that we should all worship together. Meaning worshipping with the name Jesus in the shuls, etc.


Not all Jews accept Chabadnikims.

 

[DavidHaCohen]

Talmidah is right. There are diffent definitions of what a Jew is. One is the secular definition and the other is the halachah.

Let us not forget for instance that for the purpose of aliyah, if your father has a Jewish mother you are still Jewish. In Halachah, this is not the case.

Dave

That is different from halacha though. A person born of a Jewish mother will always be a Jew, whether apostate or not. If they were to renounce their belief in Yeshua and return to Torah Judaism, they would not be required to convert to Judaism. For purposes of aliyah, yes it was decided that a Jew is a person who was born of a Jewish mother, or a convert to Judaism, and is not a member of another religion. But again, that decision did not change halacha.

 

[DavidHaCohen]

One Messianic did give me an explanation I found quite interesting, and far more acceptable than that of Protestantism.

She said she didn't really worship "the man Jesus", but rather the Spirit of G-d that she believed dwelled "in his flesh".

Now, I can argue whether or not the Spirit of G-d dwelled in Jesus or in a body of flesh and bones. However, I cannot call her a pagan otherwise I'd have to call Moshe Rabeinu a pagan for worshipping the burning bush. Moshe Rabeinu didn't worship a bush, he worshipped the Spirit of G-d that was manifested in the bush. So I don't see that as idolatry. Maybe a mistake, but not idolatry. Likewise, a Jew doesn't bow down to Shabat itself in Lecha Dodi, but rather to the sephirot of G-d that manifest themselves in the Shabat.

As for the Trinity, well that I would have a serious problem with. For a Jew, it would go against Sh'ma, which is the most basic principle of Judaism. However, most Messianics I have come accross are not trinitarian despite the forum's definition of Messianics.

Dave

Jesus is G-d according to Messianics, correct? If Jesus is G-d and it says to worship G-d then you are worshipping Jesus, correct? They are the same according to Messianics. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Henaynei]

One Messianic did give me an explanation I found quite interesting, and far more acceptable than that of Protestantism.

She said she didn't really worship "the man Jesus", but rather the Spirit of G-d that she believed dwelled "in his flesh".

Now, I can argue whether or not the Spirit of G-d dwelled in Jesus or in a body of flesh and bones. However, I cannot call her a pagan otherwise I'd have to call Moshe Rabeinu a pagan for worshipping the burning bush. Moshe Rabeinu didn't worship a bush, he worshipped the Spirit of G-d that was manifested in the bush. So I don't see that as idolatry. Maybe a mistake, but not idolatry. Likewise, a Jew doesn't bow down to Shabat itself in Lecha Dodi, but rather to the sephirot of G-d that manifest themselves in the Shabat.

As for the Trinity, well that I would have a serious problem with. For a Jew, it would go against Sh'ma, which is the most basic principle of Judaism. However, most Messianics I have come accross are not trinitarian despite the forum's definition of Messianics.

Dave

I'm delighted to hear that others are trying to define a monothestic Messianic Judaism!! Saying that one worships the Spirit of HaShem that dewlt in Yeshua's body is a pretty good way of discussing that part of the issue.

Yeshua was indeed begotten of G-d, but it was His Spirit that was HaShem - thus 100% man (His body) and 100% G-d (His Spirit) - and it is that Spirit that departed Him at the execution when He cried out "Why have You forsaken Me?"

 

[P_G]

There are some things that need dealing with and will be after Shabbat