Question concerning relations with other Jews

[Chuva]

I was wondering what kind of relationship, in general, Messianic Jews have with other Jews (Reformed, Conservative, Orthodox...)?

All religious Jews are Messianic Jews... I personally know hundreds of religious Jews, and I don't know a single one who does not believe in the concept of Messiach. So we are all MessianicJews.

The irony begins when some folks (Jews for Jesus) who ascribe messiaship to Jesus label themselves Messianic, as if everyone else isn't. However, they are no more Messianic than I am. They just pretend that the Christian messiah is the real one. Okay, so? If I suddenly think it isn't him, I am not Messianicsuddenly?

Labeling them Messianicis like saying that Kia is a car and implying that a Ford Expedition isn't.

To be more accurate, they should label themselves Jesusianic. But of course, this being a free country, they can name themselves anything they want. They can be Messianic Dalai Lamas for all I care. The funnier, the better.

 

[Chuva]

According to Judiasm you are no longer a Jew if you believe Yeshua is Messiah...

Where did you hear that?

We consider them misguided Jews. That's just the way it is.

There is an old joke, old meaning from the times when there were forced conversions of Jews into Christianity, but it highlights the point.

There is one Jew living in town. And it's a Jewish custom to eat fish on friday night, for sabbath. The town is quite intent on converting him, so one day a crowd drags him into Church, the priest sprinkles some holy water on him three times, and says three times -- you are no longer a Jew, you are no longer a Jew, you are no longer a Jew.

So next Friday night people pass through the Jew's window, and see him eating fish again - basically doing the Jewish thing. So the priest storms in, and screams why the hell are you eating fish, I converted you, you are not a Jew anymore. So he replies -- this is not a fish, this is pork. Priest looks at the fish, which is clearly fish and gets even more annoyed. So the Jew says, look, I went the market, bought some fish, brought it home, took some water, sprinkled it three times and said -- you are not a fish, you are not a fish, you are not a fish....

So a Jew "converting" to another faith has about the same result.

Yet it is more than that because they really don't have a problem with someone being Messiah, it is the Trinity aspect they find impossible to accept...so I am thinking that they mainly see the term Jew as contradictory to the term Trinity ...Jews do not believe in the Trinity, therefore pick one or the other but don't choose both is how I understand it (Please correct me if I'm wrong my Jewish friends).

I don't mean to be negeative at all toward my Jewish friends, I can see that this is something they are commanded to do by their leaders (not worship/fellowship with us) It has been around since the first century...but that doesn't mean that the Torah said it...(Personally I believe it was an ancient man made trap...but that is just my opinion) My prayer is that someday this will be removed and we can all fellowship together...

Edit: I deleted this part of my post because I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post it...

 

[Tishri1]

All religious Jews are Messianic Jews... I personally know hundreds of religious Jews, and I don't know a single one who does not believe in the concept of Messiach. So we are all MessianicJews.

Chuva, I can see alot of pain and wisdom in your words and all I can say is you are RIGHT!

To be more accurate, they should label themselves Jesusianic.

I think the 1st century believers were a sect of Judiasm called THE WAY but today that name has been taken by another group...

 

[Tishri1]

Where did you hear that?

Painfully from Jews who have been rejected...I truly wish it were not so. Tell us where we can go today to fellowship side by side with the Jew ?

 

[Talmidah]

Painfully from Jews who have been rejected...I truly wish it were not so. Tell us where we can go today to fellowship side by side with the Jew ?

I'm so hesitant to post here...I don't want to break the rules, but I don't want you to feel like your question is being ignored either.

Tishri, can you spell out your definition of "fellowship" in your statement "where we can go today to fellowship side by side with the Jew"?

As for your other question/statement, Chuva is right. A Jew who converts to another religion is always going to be a Jew. However, he will be an apostate Jew.

(Mods...please delete post if I've crossed the line)

 

[Chuva]

Painfully from Jews who have been rejected...I truly wish it were not so. Tell us where we can go today to fellowship side by side with the Jew ?

Yes, well unfortunetly, those Jews who told you that didn't receive a strong jewish education and don't know the law. You won't find a place where Orthodox Jews will prayer with Messianic Jews unless the Messianic Jews are looking to leave Jews4Jesus. We're forbidden to enter a place of idolatry and unfortunetly... J4J and Christianity fall under that category.

 

[Chuva]

Tishri, can you spell out your definition of "fellowship" in your statement "where we can go today to fellowship side by side with the Jew"?

I think she wants to know where Messianic Jews (J4J) and Orthodox Jews can pray together, which won't happen unless the J4J is leaving the second J behind.

(mods: I don't think any of my answers are over the line, but if so let me know)

 

[DavidHaCohen]

Chuva,
I can see that you are very young and as it is characteristic of the youth, you have very strong opinions.

However, I wouldn't go as far as labelling Messianics as idolaters. So what if they believe that G-d walked the Earth? How does that make G-d any different? Maybe we disagree with them, but idolatry is a serious accusation. Why aren't Chabad shuls accused of idolatry when they place giant pictures of the Rebbe which are bigger than the Aron HaKodesh itself?

Another mistake you make is to believe that only Jews who don't receive a strong Jewish education change religions. That couldn't be farther from the truth. As an enthusiast of the religious phenomena in general, I can tell you that people rarely change their religions out of ignorance. They change their religions because they didn't feel that their previous religion fulfilled them in some way.

I wish us Jews could all live in harmony and worship the G-d of our Fathers together despite how differently we may perceive Him.

Dave

Yes, well unfortunetly, those Jews who told you that didn't receive a strong jewish education and don't know the law. You won't find a place where Orthodox Jews will prayer with Messianic Jews unless the Messianic Jews are looking to leave Jews4Jesus. We're forbidden to enter a place of idolatry and unfortunetly... J4J and Christianity fall under that category.

 

[Tishri1]

I think she wants to know where Messianic Jews (J4J) and Orthodox Jews can pray together, which won't happen unless the J4J is leaving the second J behind.

(mods: I don't think any of my answers are over the line, but if so let me know)

we are at a crossroads I am sad to say but I believe that is the crux of the issue: the second J...How about the first Y? That Guy was Jewish, knew Torah, never had a complaint about his theology (unless they were false complaints) and I have heared that his sect was apart of Judiasm in the first century...why the left foot of fellowship now?

I understand that he has had a radical makeover over the centuries but what of his Original Look? What is the one thing about him makes you keep his followers at arms bay?


Have you ever wondered why it's just him that gets your goat? Why not any other, Teacher, Prophet or Messiah.........

I'm not trying to convert at all...You already know God ...but why is it that the only other Group that follows hard after Torah is the very group that cannot come close in fellowship to the Jews?

I'm just sad about that

 

[Shy21]

I'm not trying to convert at all...You already know God ...but why is it that the only other Group that follows hard after Torah is the very group that cannot come close in fellowship to the Jews?

I'm just sad about that

Because he claimed he was Hashem.

 

[Tishri1]

Chuva,
I can see that you are very young and as it is characteristic of the youth, you have very strong opinions.

However, I wouldn't go as far as labelling Messianics as idolaters. So what if they believe that G-d walked the Earth? How does that make G-d any different? Maybe we disagree with them, but idolatry is a serious accusation. Why aren't Chabad shuls accused of idolatry when they place giant pictures of the Rebbe which are bigger than the Aron HaKodesh itself?

Another mistake you make is to believe that only Jews who don't receive a strong Jewish education change religions. That couldn't be farther from the truth. As an enthusiast of the religious phenomena in general, I can tell you that people rarely change their religions out of ignorance. They change their religions because they didn't feel that their previous religion fulfilled them in some way.

I wish us Jews could all live in harmony and worship the G-d of our Fathers together despite how differently we may perceive Him.

Dave

speechless and in awe

 

[Shy21]

I wish us Jews could all live in harmony and worship the G-d of our Fathers together despite how differently we may perceive Him.

Dave

Do you believe we should go to churchs and worship with Messianics who believes/worship in Jesus? Just curious in knowing.

 

[Talmidah]

Have you ever wondered why it's just him that gets your goat? Why not any other, Teacher, Prophet or Messiah.........

There aren't any followers of Shabbati Tzvi telling us that we must worship him or go to hell. There aren't any followers of Yeshayahu telling us that the prophet was really Hashem and must therefore receive the worship due no one but Hashem. I don't think it has anything to do with "J" or "Y" or Torah observance or lack of. There are Jews who are less "Torah observant" than you might be, yet don't worship a man.

This discussion probably should be taken somewhere else though. I want to answer your questions, and want others to as well, but don't want to get warnings in the process.

 

[Tishri1]

There aren't any followers of Shabbati Tzvi telling us that we must worship him or go to hell. There aren't any followers of Yeshayahu telling us that the prophet was really Hashem and must therefore receive the worship due no one but Hashem. I don't think it has anything to do with "J" or "Y" or Torah observance or lack of. There are Jews who are less "Torah observant" than you might be, yet don't worship a man.

This discussion probably should be taken somewhere else though. I want to answer your questions, and want others to as well, but don't want to get warnings in the process.

I understand we must be careful because if we lost you I would have to scream and I don't do that kinda thing

 

[Talmidah]

I understand we must be careful because if we lost you I would have to scream and I don't do that kinda thing

Thank you

 

[Tishri1]

Matthew 2:2 2 "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him." <4352> proskune,w (proskuneo)
Meaning: to do reverence to
Origin: from 4314 and kuneo (to kiss)
(I think these kings wanted to greet the Messiah, the King, and bring gifts to him)

Matthew 2:8 8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, "Go and make careful search for the Child; and when you have found Him, report to me, that I too may come and worship Him."
(Now this Man was just lying anyway so we can skip him)

Matthew 4:10-11 10 Then Jesus said to him, "Begone, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.'" 11 Then the devil left Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.

Luke 4:8 8 And Jesus answered and said to him, "It is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.'"

Philippians 3:3 3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
(I did find this one that said "glory" in Christ, but that just sounds like respect or thanksgiving for what he did and it only says worship "in the Spirit of God")

Revelation 4:10 - 5:1 10 the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 "Worthy art Thou, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for Thou didst create all things, and because of Thy will they existed, and were created."
( worship of God here)

Revelation 14:6-7 6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, "Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters."
(again Worship God here)

Revelation 15:4-5 4 "Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? For Thou alone art holy; For all the nations will come and worship before Thee, For Thy righteous acts have been revealed." 5 After these things I looked, and the temple of the tabernacle of testimony in heaven was opened,
(again worship God here)

Revelation 19:10 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
(OK if he was a fellow servant who held the testimony of Yeshua why not say Worship Yeshua? Cuz we gots ta worship GOD!)

Revelation 22:8-9 8 And I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book; worship God."
( That it in a nut shell folks I went thru every verse that had Worship in it.)

I believe we are called to worship God and that Yeshua has called us to God...To worship HIM.

 

[Shy21]

I believe we are called to worship God and that Yeshua has called us to God...To worship HIM.

Jesus is G-d according to Messianics, correct? If Jesus is G-d and it says to worship G-d then you are worshipping Jesus, correct? They are the same according to Messianics. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Tishri1]

Jesus is G-d according to Messianics, correct? If Jesus is G-d and it says to worship G-d then you are worshipping Jesus, correct? They are the same according to Messianics. Correct me if I am wrong.

I prefer to let the Word written around the time of Yeshua speak for Him (even though It has been translated too many times it still does a pretty good job)

 

[Shy21]

I have a question for the Messianics:

Some say he is, but then I have heard others say he isnt. Do Messianics view Jesus as Hashem or do they view him as just the Messiah?

 

[Tishri1]

I have a question for the Messianics:

Some say he is, but then I have heard others say he isnt. Do Messianics view Jesus as Hashem or do they view him as just the Messiah?

Would that Change your view of Messianics any?