Question concerning faith.....

[Defcon]

Hey all, this just came up in another thread and the reading I've done hasn't lead me to much in the way of an answer. Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God," I understand that to mean that faith is a gift from God since having to wrought our own faith would imply that we save ourselves. John Piper echoes this on the Desiring God site, but I haven't found an exegetical analysis from him concerning this. I say that to say in the forum I was discussing this in, someone mentioned that the gender of faith did not match in order for this to be what the gift is referring to. Can someone help me out here or point me to some reliable info concerning this text? Thanks.

 

[reformedfan]

it is not by faith we are saved, but by Grace, through faith; critical diff.

If it's grace that actually saves us, then even if we could have faith all by ourselves, it would be irrrelevant & meaningless

 

[Defcon]

it is not by faith we are saved, but by Grace, through faith; critical diff.

If it's grace that actually saves us, then even if we could have faith all by ourselves, it would be irrrelevant & meaningless

So are you saying that this verse says that faith is wrought from us?

 

[reformedfan]

faith is a gift from God, since it is grace, the free gift of God that saves us: the thing He uses to save us comes from that which actually saves us.

We can't have saving faith in & of ourselves, but even ifg we could, since it is not faith but grace that saves us, it would be irrelevant & useless.

 

[Defcon]

faith is a gift from God, since it is grace, the free gift of God that saves us: the thing He uses to save us comes from that which actually saves us.

We can't have saving faith in & of ourselves, but even ifg we could, since it is not faith but grace that saves us, it would be irrelevant & useless.

Ok, I agree with that. Do you know of any exegetical work on Ephesians 2:8-9 or have an info yourself concerning this scripture that backs our belief? Some of the things I've read says that the "this" that is not from ourselves is the whole plan of salvation - grace and faith included. Is this the correct view? If so, why?

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Ok, I agree with that. Do you know of any exegetical work on Ephesians 2:8-9 or have an info yourself concerning this scripture that backs our belief? Some of the things I've read says that the "this" that is not from ourselves is the whole plan of salvation - grace and faith included. Is this the correct view? If so, why?

These may help:

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul01.html

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0979.htm

But the one you will find gets to the heart of the matter is the following where James White refutes the very argument raised of "faith" being a feminine noun;

http://www.aomin.org/index.php?itemid=630&catid=4

 

[holeinone]

I have been told that faith is the vehicle that grace comes in.

Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us al

Saving faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit . I believe it comes from reading the word.

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Salvation is all of God. The faith and the grace are from Him and not ourselves.



Phl 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

 

[Defcon]

These may help:

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul01.html

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0979.htm

But the one you will find gets to the heart of the matter is the following where James White refutes the very argument raised of "faith" being a feminine noun;

http://www.aomin.org/index.php?itemid=630&catid=4

This confirmed what I had found for other sources - I haven't had the chance to check out the intial 2 links but the last one was dead on. Unfortunately, I have to spread some reputation around before I can rep you again.

 

[justinstout]

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."


Ephesians 2:8-9
Grace and faith are totally dependent upon each other. These verses in Ephesians 2 show us that we are saved by grace through faith, not one or the other. I've heard many people who centered their teaching on grace or on faith, but God's Word teaches us that they must be combined. Failure to do this has been the reason for much frustration.

First we have to have a common understanding of what these terms, grace and faith, mean. It is most commonly accepted that grace literally means God's unmerited favor. It is something God has accomplished for us totally without our help and independent of what we deserve. You can't earn God's grace.

Faith has many facets, and many, many books have been written trying to define it. In its simplest terms, faith is your positive response to God. Many sincere Christians have made a major mistake in thinking that faith is something that we do to earn or gain a positive response from God. God does not move in response to your faith. God has already moved through His grace, and your faith is simply your response to what you believe God has already done.

Let's take an example. Ephesians 2:8 says that we were saved by grace through faith. God, by grace, made an atonement for our sins. It was not based upon something we had done to deserve it. Quite the contrary, God commended His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us (Rom. 5:8). It was totally God's grace that provided salvation.

But God's grace alone doesn't make salvation a reality in us. Ephesians 2:8 says it is by grace through faith. God's grace doesn't change us until we respond to it in faith. As we mix faith with what God has already provided by grace, then the miracle of the new birth takes place. But there must be grace (what God has already done) plus faith (your response to God's grace).

Titus 2:11 says that God's grace has appeared, or come, unto all men. If grace alone saved, then all men would be saved. But, you see, all men have not responded to God's grace in faith.

Your faith didn't make God move to provide salvation for you. It was provided by grace before you were ever born. This is the reason you were able to believe for forgiveness of sins so easily. All of the burden to produce was upon God, where it should be. Your only requirement was to believe. Your believing didn't move God, rather, it moved you.

By His grace God has already blessed us with everything we'll ever receive from Him (Eph. 1:3). Faith changes us and circumstances and demons and puts us in agreement with God. But faith doesn't change or move God.

Many people, who are becoming aware of faith today, have made this mistake of thinking that God beholds our faith and when it reaches a certain level, then He moves to answer our prayers. They think, "Lord, I've been fasting and praying. I've gone to church and I've paid my tithes. Will you heal me now?" They are actually putting faith in what they have done instead of what God has already done through grace.

If we had approached forgiveness of sins that way, we would have never been born again. We came to God not on the basis of what we had done or with a bargain to present to Him about what we would do. But we came just as we were and put our total dependence on His grace (unmerited favor) and we received the biggest miracle we'll ever receive, the new birth. If we would continue to keep our faith in Him the same way, then we would continue to see the same results (Col. 2:6).

When it comes to prosperity or healing, most Christians think, "I know He can provide this need but I haven't prayed enough or I haven't been living the way I should." Well, let me ask you this: when you came to the Lord for forgiveness of sins, had you been living the way you should? Had you fasted and prayed enough to earn God's unmerited favor? Of course not. Galatians 3:3 says, "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" If we would just continue to put faith in God's grace, we would see every answer to prayer manifest in the physical realm.

God our Father has already provided everything by His grace. If you need healing, God won't heal you. He has already done it! First Peter 2:24 shows that we were healed by the stripes that Jesus took on His back. When you pray to be healed, Jesus doesn't get off the throne and take more stripes so you can be healed. It's already been done. That's grace. All you have to do is respond to that grace in faith and your body will manifest what Jesus has already provided. Joshua 1:8 tells us that when we meditate in the Word day and night and observe all that is written in it, then we make our way prosperous and then we have good success. God, by His grace, has already released His prosperity upon every person on the face of the earth (Titus 2:11). But as we get in God's Word and act on it, it changes us so that we can receive by faith. God doesn't need to be changed; He's already on our side!

If you will put faith in God's grace, you will always overcome the world (Jn. 16:33 and 1 Jn. 5:4).



(written by AWM)

 

[rnmomof7]

Saving Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit IMO



Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him

.Phl 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Act 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. 16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

We are not looking at human hope or human faith .. but at a supernatural faith brought by God to the man . This is not faith the train will be on time or that the sun will rise in the morning ... This is a supernatural faith, to believe what others with human faith deny

1Cr 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

We believe not with our human faith, but the faith of God, of Christ in us.

 

[CCWoody]

An illustration....

Let's say that you live in a villiage in the middle of the jungle and every one in your tribe has a strange genetic defect which prevents you from seeing blue. You have all your cones functioning, but there is something that just prevents your brain from processing the information correctly.

Then, one day, along comes a doctor (missionary), who tells you that the sky is blue. Well, you think this is utter nonsense. But, this doctor, while in the process of fixing broken bones and doing various other things in the village, gives you a shot that repairs your faulty genetic defect. We don't care how he did this, just that he is able to do this.

From that moment on, you are convinced that the sky is blue even though every single person in your village thinks you are a moron. You will go to your grave believing that the sky is blue. You cannot deny your nature.

This is the way of faith and belief. The Holy Spirit re-engineers your nature so that you are now able to see the kingdom of God and believe in the Lord. The Holy Spirit didn't give you either faith or belief, but because of what He did give you, you are able to believe. Who caused my faith & belief? The Lord. But it is MY faith and MY belief. The Lord does not believe for me. Does this give me cause to boast? I don't think so. Had the Holy Spirit not regenerated my nature I would have not believed. Faith & belief are the simple and natural responses to regeneration.

Do I have Scriptural support for this position? 2 Co. 4:6, 1 John 5:1, etc.

 

[Jon_]

The most crucial part of exegesis that can be performed on Eph. 2:8 is to correctly identify the antecedent clause to the assertion, "and that not of yourselves" There are two possibilities and one impossibility.

(Eph. 2:8 AV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
​

First, we'll dispense with the impossibility. It is impossible that "by grace" is the antecedent clause of "and that not of yourselves" in this verse. Such an interpretation would violate all rules of grammar. If this is the antecedent, then likewise in, "I went to San Diego through Los Angeles; it was hot there," "it was hot there," would refer to San Diego instead of Los Angeles, but it is clear that I am referring to Los Angeles as it is the last subject of the sentence. Attributing the heat to San Diego would simply be absurd.

We might say that "and that not of yourselves" refers to faith. This makes perfect sense in the English and accords with all rules of grammar; however, the problem arises not from the English, but from the Greek. In the Greek, "and that" (kai touto) is neuter, whereas both "for by grace" (tei gar chariti) and "through faith" (dia pisteos) are feminine. Because the genders do not match, the "that" cannot be attributed directly to either noun. Instead, it should be construed as applying to the whole, "by grace through faith." That is, the "that" refers to the whole transaction of salvation, which is, by grace through faith.

This exegesis is of course faithful to the doctrine of monergism. It is because this exegesis is sound that we believe in monergistic salvation, after all (and because of other verses which obviously teach it). The verse clearly states that salvation (grace through faith) is the gift of God. It does not say that grace is the gift of God, to which man can then choose to respond in faith. Nor does it say that there is grace and then faith, which is the gift of God (that is, the faith alone is the gift), but the whole of it all--grace through faith--is the gift of God. God has graciously elected us and graciously caused us to believe, and this is his gift to his children.

Some verses to compare/confer: Jn. 6:65, Rm. 10:17 (see also Jn. 6:63, 1 Co. 2:14; 12:3), 1 Co. 3:6, 7, Php. 1:29.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Radagast]

Saving Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit IMO.

There should be no disagreement on that here.

-- Radagast

 

[lmnop9876]

First, we'll dispense with the impossibility. It is impossible that "by grace" is the antecedent clause of "and that not of yourselves" in this verse. Such an interpretation would violate all rules of grammar. If this is the antecedent, then likewise in, "I went to San Diego through Los Angeles; it was hot there," "it was hot there," would refer to San Diego instead of Los Angeles, but it is clear that I am referring to Los Angeles as it is the last subject of the sentence. Attributing the heat to San Diego would simply be absurd.

actually, when i read this, it made no sense. I did think you were attributing the heat to San Diego. Los Angeles just happens to be a part of your route, it is the object of a preposition, not the subject of a sentence.
Neither 'by grace' or 'by faith' is the subject of the sentence in the Scripture. If we look at the different parts of this verse, it would go like this (sentences re-ordered):

(For) You [subject of first sentence] - are saved [verb in first sentence, shows what happens to us, it is passive, showing that we receive this salvation, we don't earn it], (by grace [prepositional phrase acting as an adverb, describes how we are saved]) (through faith [modifies the [by grace] part, shows how we receive this grace]), (and) that [refers to the last noun mentioned, namely, faith] [is] <not [adverb showing negativity]> (of yourselves [this takes the form of the predicate adjective in this clause]), it - is ****e [definite article]> gift [predicate noun] (of God [describes who the gift comes from, namely, God])

 

[Jon_]

actually, when i read this, it made no sense. I did think you were attributing the heat to San Diego. Los Angeles just happens to be a part of your route, it is the object of a preposition, not the subject of a sentence.

Yeah, on second read, that was a bad example. Anyway, the example is immaterial as to the exegesis itself.

(For) You [subject of first sentence] - are saved [verb in first sentence, shows what happens to us, it is passive, showing that we receive this salvation, we don't earn it], (by grace [prepositional phrase acting as an adverb, describes how we are saved]) (through faith [modifies the [by grace] part, shows how we receive this grace]), (and) that [refers to the last noun mentioned, namely, faith] [is] <not [adverb showing negativity]> (of yourselves [this takes the form of the predicate adjective in this clause]), it - is ****e [definite article]> gift [predicate noun] (of God [describes who the gift comes from, namely, God])

This is not faithful to the original text, though. The text reads, "For by grace you are saved through faith," and not, "For you are saved by grace through faith." The first shows that salvation is caused by grace in which we are saved through faith. The latter says that in which we are saved is grace through faith (which would mean that grace comes through faith, which is what Arminians think).

In any case, it doesn't matter what the English properly says as the underlying Greek is clear.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[lmnop9876]

This is not faithful to the original text, though. The text reads, "For by grace you are saved through faith," and not, "For you are saved by grace through faith." The first shows that salvation is caused by grace in which we are saved through faith. The latter says that in which we are saved is grace through faith (which would mean that grace comes through faith, which is what Arminians think).

In any case, it doesn't matter what the English properly says as the underlying Greek is clear.

true, i was actually defending your position though. :winks:
never mind, my English grammatical explanation's probably no good for Greek. LOL.