Question abt Calvinism

[Andrew]

Limited Atonement
Some Calvinists have shared with me that Christ did not shed his blood for all mankind, but only for those 'predestined' for heaven.

IOW, they maintain that all those scriptures which say "all" men actually mean "many" (and we argued extensively abt the meaning of 'all' vs 'many'!).

They also reasoned that it was "ridiculous" or "beneath" Jesus (sort of like a 'waste' of his blood) to shed his blood for those who would end up in hell.

My question: Dont Calvinist believe that ALL men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, no thanks to Adam? So if they do, then how can the last Adam's work be a much more compared to the first Adam's (as stated in Rom 5) when the former's work affected all mankind whereas Jesus' work affects only an elect group? ie If sin affects all, but grace was shed only for some, how can Jesus work be a "much more" than Adam's sinning and its effects

in relation to this:

Ro 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Why do Calvinist (the ones I've talked to) interpret "all" in the first instance to mean "all" but in the same breath/verse interpret "all" in the second instance to mean "many". where is the consistency in interpretation?

 

[niwde]

if they come and asked u again
ask them whether those who are diestined to go to hell
where damn by god since the day that individual was comceive in the mother's womb
if it was like that
why worship a God that "love" us
tell them people should rather worship satan
what is the use of standing for god
if god doesn't want u
u stand by him,u still do not get to go to heavn
that is so stupid
makes no sense at all
this a cult
making own conclusions
what is this rubbish
some fellow even came up with an idea that christ did not die on the cross but was replaced and jesus flead to india
and a city named after him
what is this
ask those fellows to read the last chapter of john

 

[WayneH]

A saying I learned many years ago..


ALL MEANS ALL - and thats all ALL means... not many - but ALL...

 

[LouisBooth]

Well look at the verses..all that BELIEVE. that's not all.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
Well look at the verses..all that BELIEVE. that's not all.

Hmm... I don't see "that believe" in any translation nor in the Greek. Where does that apposition come from?

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by niwde
if they come and asked u again
ask them whether those who are diestined to go to hell
where damn by god since the day that individual was comceive in the mother's womb
if it was like that
why worship a God that "love" us
tell them people should rather worship satan

And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." - Romans 9:10-13

what is the use of standing for god
if god doesn't want u
u stand by him,u still do not get to go to heavn
that is so stupid
makes no sense at all

Calvinism states that if someone "stand by him", obeying Him, then that person will go to Heaven. There is never a case according to Calvinism where a person truly serves God and doesn't go to Heaven. All that truly serve God are Elect.

this a cult
making own conclusions
what is this rubbish
some fellow even came up with an idea that christ did not die on the cross but was replaced and jesus flead to india
and a city named after him
what is this
ask those fellows to read the last chapter of john

Excuse me? Are you comparing Calvinism to nonsensical "jesus flead[sp] to india" cult?!
Please do not advocate this tripe, comparing my belief system to an outlandish, heretical cult. You don't see me calling the Roman Catholic Church the "harlot of Babylon", now do you?

 

[JohnR7]

>>Jesus' work affects only an elect group?

Every is affected, because now everyone has a choice. If Jesus did not provide a way, then no one would have a choice, there would be no plan of redemption.

God is blameless, because He is no respector of persons. Everyone has the same opportunity or chance before Him. If He favored one group over another, then He would be showing favortism.

 

[Gerry]

Originally posted by Andrew
Limited Atonement
Some Calvinists have shared with me that Christ did not shed his blood for all mankind, but only for those 'predestined' for heaven.

See? That is what is wrong with these types of "discussions". You end up discussing what "some calvinists say". Baloney! People are either a Calvinist or they are not. Calvin was very CLEAR in his beliefs, so you embrace them or not. It is not a matter of "SOME Calvinists say". If they don't say what CALVIN said, they are NOT Calvinists!

Why do you not start this discussin by listing the POINTS OF CALVINISM and let Calin speak for himself?

 

[niwde]

this is rubbish
if i got the money
i can even come out and declare some nonsense
if u do not like the word cult
then i will use the word,distorted from the truth
if it is like that
it will not be surprising in a hundred or 500 hundred years time,some great fellow will come out and claim that he is the decendant of jesus,or jesus had a wife or any other kind if utter rubbish

i am sorry
if u r angry with this
but this is the truth
it might happen in the near future

 

[Lion Heart]

Originally posted by niwde
this is rubbish
if i got the money
i can even come out and declare some nonsense
if u do not like the word cult
then i will use the word,distorted from the truth
if it is like that
it will not be surprising in a hundred or 500 hundred years time,some great fellow will come out and claim that he is the decendant of jesus,or jesus had a wife or any other kind if utter rubbish

i am sorry
if u r angry with this
but this is the truth
it might happen in the near future

We don't have to wait 500 years, we've already had some occupying a chair heading up an institution, who have claimed to be GOD on EARTH.

..and have power to forgive SIN


This is BLASPHEMEOUS


RICHARD

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by niwde
this is rubbish
if i got the money
i can even come out and declare some nonsense
if u do not like the word cult
then i will use the word,distorted from the truth
if it is like that
it will not be surprising in a hundred or 500 hundred years time,some great fellow will come out and claim that he is the decendant of jesus,or jesus had a wife or any other kind if utter rubbish

WHAT THE HECK IS THIS?!

Are you trying to compare Calvinism to a cult that says "some great fellow will come out and claim that he is the decendant of jesus,or jesus had a wife or any other kind if utter rubbish"?!

I hope you know that this is HIGHLY inflammatory and HIGHLY offensive.

i am sorry
if u r angry with this
but this is the truth
it might happen in the near future

Now let me tell YOU the truth. Calvinists do not follow a cult. Do you EVEN know what a cult is?!

HOW THE HECK DO YOU COME OFF TELLING ME THAT CALVINISM IS GOING TO GIVE RISE TO THE ANTICHRIST?!

YOU DON'T SEE ME CLAIMING THE POPE IS THE BEAST, DO YOU?!

I expect the SAME respect from you that I give to others. I don't go around calling other people's beliefs CULTS.

 

[Kristen]

Locking this thread for now.