Question about TULIP

Rick Otto · Aug 11, 2005

I think a common problem is that people can't imagine God creating evil.
Look... He obviously thinks Hitler was evil, but he must not think God created him, or that his human will can defy God's purpose. As if all the Roman soldiers at the crucifixition suddenly stopped, looked at each other, & said,"WHAT were we thinking?!" and walked away, leavin' Jesus no way to fulfill His Father's prophecy.

Hitler did God's will for him to be an evil Hitler. How would that make Hitler "not evil"?

Cognitive Dissonance. Right in front of him, but becomes invisible between the eyes & the brain. Go figure.

5solas · Aug 11, 2005

Rick Otto said:
Why did he accuse ME of making God out to be a liar?
Why didn't he call God a liar & murderer, himself?
All I did was show him Isaiah 45:7 & 1Kings22:22-3.
I didn't WRITE them.
Maybe he has his glasses on backwards.

you are right - it just reminds me of

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Beoga · Aug 12, 2005

PentecostalEvangelist said:
Committing any act of Evil is a CHOICE made by the individual according to that persons own free will, God never forces any person to do anything, that is the most ridiculous concept ever conceived.

I believe it is a very disgusting slanderous evil act to blame God for the wickedness in Evil MENS hearts, and it is even more so for those who profess to be Christians, who profess they love Jesus to do so.

I do not now, and I will never accept the lie of election, you become the elect WHEN you choose, according to your own free will, to accept Jesus Christ as your savior, AND God determined that anyone, and everyone, anywhere and everywhere could, if so choose, become on of the elect.

IF Calvins theory of election was in fact a sound Biblical truth thgen there would certainly be a list of names of those whgo are the elect somewhere in the word of God, IF there is not, then there is certainly a list of specific Scriptural guidelines given in the word of God which would specifically show how anyone, and everyone, anywhere and everywhere CAN be saved.

The Scripture verses you used to back up these claims were very convincing !

The Bible clearly and definitely states that whosoever calls on the name of the Lord SHALL be saved, Whosoever means whosoever, it does NOT mean some-soever, ALL means ALL, not a few.

You will not find a Reformed Christian who disagrees with this!

Jon_ · Aug 12, 2005

PentecostalEvangelist said:
Committing any act of Evil is a CHOICE made by the individual according to that persons own free will, God never forces any person to do anything, that is the most ridiculous concept ever conceived.

I believe it is a very disgusting slanderous evil act to blame God for the wickedness in Evil MENS hearts, and it is even more so for those who profess to be Christians, who profess they love Jesus to do so.

I do not now, and I will never accept the lie of election, you become the elect WHEN you choose, according to your own free will, to accept Jesus Christ as your savior, AND God determined that anyone, and everyone, anywhere and everywhere could, if so choose, become on of the elect.

IF Calvins theory of election was in fact a sound Biblical truth thgen there would certainly be a list of names of those whgo are the elect somewhere in the word of God, IF there is not, then there is certainly a list of specific Scriptural guidelines given in the word of God which would specifically show how anyone, and everyone, anywhere and everywhere CAN be saved.

The Bible clearly and definitely states that whosoever calls on the name of the Lord SHALL be saved, Whosoever means whosoever, it does NOT mean some-soever, ALL means ALL, not a few.

You haven't even the beginnings of a clue about that which we're discussing.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Rick Otto · Aug 12, 2005

"IF Calvins theory of election was in fact a sound Biblical truth thgen there would certainly be a list of names of those whgo are the elect somewhere in the word of God,..."

>There is a list, Mike. In fact there are so many names on it, it filled a whole book. It's called "The Lamb's Book of life".
For your enjoyment:
Php 4:3 - And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

Re 3:5 - He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Re 13:8 -And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Re 20:12 -And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Re 20:15 -And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Re 21:27 -And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Beoga · Aug 13, 2005

PentecostalEvangelist said:
Hey I know I'm stupid......

I never said that. Did you come in here to have a God honoring discussion or did you come in here to spew your hate? You have a lot of misconceptions about what Calvinism teaches but that doesn't make you stupid. What would make you stupid is if you chose to remain and your misconceptions and not try and understand what we proclaim, especially when we try and explain it (which I would be willing to do).

BBAS 64 · Aug 13, 2005

[QUOTE[ edited post .[/QUOTE]

Good Day, PenacostalEvan

I am not sure if there is a vaild question in this post, there surly is some wild unfounded assertions,

"God never forces ".. Assumes that a man can even start to withhold the hand of God.

Explain then,

Gen 20:6 Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her.

Define elect

Mat 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

eklektos

Thayer Definition:

1) picked out, chosen

1a) chosen by God

1a1) to obtain salvation through Christ

And a greek source please.

I am sure you are aware there is no single greek word for "whosoever" but is a verbal construction, so your point is flawed.

Whosoever shall call..
all the ones "doing" calling

Peace to u,

Bill

rnmomof7 · Aug 14, 2005

closed for mod review

rnmomof7 · Aug 14, 2005

I have cleaned the thread up a bit.

Please continue with your discussion .
BUT there is no debating doctrine here.

You may discuss and question if you like. But you may not use the hospitality of this forum to insult its members

Thanks

Jon_ · Aug 15, 2005

PentecostalEvangelist said:
I only wish to say this, and then never post here again.

I apologize to everyone for the things I said, and the way I offended you all, and I sincerely mean all of you.

I must in all honesty say that I still do not agree with your doctrine and I never will.

My Great Grandfather was a Baptist Pastor, My Grandfather was a Baptist Deacon (Chairman of the Presbytery board for the District association of Baptist churches for his Oklahoma District for over 30 years) And my Dad was a Baptist Pastor, so I was raised up a Hardshell Baptist.

BUT then I began to study the entire word of God for myself, and I found that the things I was taught growing up were NOT Biblically sound.

BUT this does NOT make me, or you, any less Born Again Christians, and should NOT cause us to be enemies, I am the one who has been wrong in this respect, I made you to be my enemies, and I am very sorry for allowing the devil to cause me to feel that way about you all.

I do not for even one second believe, or think that Baptists are bad people, or that you are NOT saved, I do not believe that only certain can be saved, and all the rest have no hope of ever having an equal opportunity of receiving the same assurance of salvation that anyone can have.

I came to a point in my own life where I had no where else to turn except to God, I actually came to a point, in May 1990, where I planned to kill my wife, daughter, son, and myself!

I have been there (SIN) I have done that (Very Bad sin, and I truly bought the T-Shirt (Very, Very, VERY Bad sin) I have truly done all of it, the ONE, and only sin I know for sure that I have never committed, is Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, all other sins, I have committed, and all of these sins I know God has forgiven.

Sometimes Though I have a very very hard time forgiving myself, satan constantly brings up the things of my past, and I feel such a great overwhelming sorrow and greif in my heart for these things, that I begin to hate myself all over again.

I know there are certain people here who have very bad feelings about me, and I don't blame them in the least, those feelings are well warranted seeing as I have done some awful things in the recent past to them, BUT I do apologize to you, and you know very well who you are, I do not ask your forgivenesss, I know you can't forgive me, and I understand why you feel that way, I wish you would though because it will be to your own benefit, not mine.

Anyway, I didn't post this to offend anyone, just to apologize.

If you don't mind please pray for me, it's really hard for me...

You are forgiven, brother. And I will definitely pray for you.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

oworm · Aug 15, 2005

PentecostalEvangelist said:
I know there are certain people here who have very bad feelings about me,

I think i can safely speak for everyone here and state that there is probably no one here who is harbouring bad feeling toward you

I know you can't forgive me, and I understand why you feel that way, I wish you would though because it will be to your own benefit, not mine.

Click to expand...

On the contrary! We can and will forgive you and it will be to your benefit because God forgives you too! If you are a Christian then we consider you a brother in the Lord and a partaker in all the blessings heaven has to offer without distinction and in spite of theological position.

5solas · Aug 15, 2005

PentecostalEvangelist said:
I know for a fact that there is at least ONE person.....

As I said there is ONE person who cannot forgive me.

and this person is certainly not me - though I was the person who reported this thread to the admin - but this was not because I wanted to offend you.

I am glad that we can talk now in a civilized manner

5solas · Aug 15, 2005

PentecostalEvangelist said:
I long for that day when the body of Christ will come into perfect unity when we will all agree with GODS word, and stop fighting over MENS denominational opinions, and I include my own denominations opinions in that as well, NONE of us are above reproach, NONE of us are absolutely correct.

The Body of Christ is NOT whole, it has been mutilated by denominational differences, there is NO unity in the entire Body of Christ, churches may think they have unity, BUT that is a lie, until the entire body of Christ comes together as one, in absolute unwavering agreement, there IS no TRUE Spiritual unity in any church.

That is a very sad fact....

I can perfectly understand you but I do not agree. I think that all true Christians ARE united in ONE Body - the body of Christ, His church. Everyone grafted in is part of it.

The spiritual body is perfectly united by/in Christ.

Jon_ · Aug 15, 2005

PentecostalEvangelist said:
I am very well aware that it is NOT you. AND I also know you had no intent to offend me.

I will NOT be discussing anything in this thread however because I cannot agree.

I long for that day when the body of Christ will come into perfect unity when we will all agree with GODS word, and stop fighting over MENS denominational opinions, and I include my own denominations opinions in that as well, NONE of us are above reproach, NONE of us are absolutely correct.

The Body of Christ is NOT whole, it has been mutilated by denominational differences, there is NO unity in the entire Body of Christ, churches may think they have unity, BUT that is a lie, until the entire body of Christ comes together as one, in absolute unwavering agreement, there IS no TRUE Spiritual unity in any church.

That is a very sad fact....

As soon as the whole body of Christ accepts the truth of Reformed doctrine, we will have the unity in truth that we desire.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

BBAS 64 · Aug 15, 2005

PentecostalEvangelist said:
I know for a fact that there is at least ONE person.

As I said there is ONE person who cannot forgive me.

Good Day, PE

I forgive ya.

Bill

BBAS 64 · Aug 15, 2005

Jon_ said:
As soon as the whole body of Christ accepts the truth of Reformed doctrine, we will have the unity in truth that we desire.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Good Day, Jon

Did CH say some thing to the effect "we will all be Calvinist in Glory" or was that CCWOODY?

Peace to u,

Bill

Jon_ · Aug 15, 2005

PentecostalEvangelist said:
I must honestly state that I am in very firm, unwavering Disagreement with that statement.

I Pray very fervently that that NEVER happens.

As Christians, we MUST come into a place of true unity in regards to our beliefs in, acceptance of, and application of ALL of Gods word to our lives, NOT parts of, parts of, Gods word.

IF we are to follow after a pattern of reformation then let us ALL truly be reformed BACK to a Complete, unwavering absolute submssion of our lives to God, NOT a partial one....

I agree. Which is why I would like to see the humanistic doctrine of free will forever demolished.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Jon_ · Aug 15, 2005

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Jon

Did CH say some thing to the effect "we will all be Calvinist in Glory" or was that CCWOODY?

Peace to u,

Bill

C. H. Spurgeon? I believe he said something to the effect of "Calvinism is simply another name for the Gospel," or something like that. I am not sure if Woody said something to the same effect. I wouldn't be surprised.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Jon_ · Aug 15, 2005

PentecostalEvangelist said:
It is NOT HUMANISTIC, it is an absolutely sound BIBLICAL truth, BUT I have been instructed by The Holy Ghost ONLY to PRAY for those who choose, according to their own FREE WILL, to reject this BIBLICAL truth, and say nothing else.

God bless you......

The Holy Ghost told you not to correct those who teach non-Scriptural doctrine?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

oworm · Aug 16, 2005

@Pentecostalevangelist

Ok heres the test. For the next 24hr period love the Lord your God with ALL your heart,ALL your soul and ALL your mind.

If you have free will then you should be able to do that in all its fullness. You do know that in doing that you will need to be completely free of sin and commit not one sin in this 24hr period.
If you really have free will to choose then you should be able to choose to commit no sin in this period and fulfil the command.
Your time starts from when you see this post. Good luck!

Question about TULIP

The Dude Abides

Ephesians 2:8.9

Sola Scriptura

Senior Veteran

The Dude Abides

Sola Scriptura

Contributor

Legend

Legend

Senior Veteran

Veteran

Ephesians 2:8.9

Ephesians 2:8.9

Senior Veteran

Contributor

Contributor

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Veteran

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency