Question about the Trinity

[2Timothy2]

Why is a correct view of the doctrine of the Trinity important? And, can one be a true Christian and deny the doctrine of the Trinity?

I am working on something regarding this and would appreciate imput. I personally hold to the doctrine of one God in three Persons, btw. I have even been berated here on CF for saying that one who does not hold to this doctrine is in error. And yet, for some strange reason, I haven't changed my beliefs.

 

[MbiaJc]

Why is a correct view of the doctrine of the Trinity important? And, can one be a true Christian and deny the doctrine of the Trinity?

I am working on something regarding this and would appreciate imput. I personally hold to the doctrine of one God in three Persons, btw. I have even been berated here on CF for saying that one who does not hold to this doctrine is in error. And yet, for some strange reason, I haven't changed my beliefs.

I don't know why you would be berated by stating God is three persons in one. For that is what all the Baptist I know believe.

How can you believe and teach something you have not got a correct view of?

It takes all three to get to the Father, the Holy Spirit draws you to Jesus Jesus takes you to the Father.

I don't see how one can be a Christian and deny the trinity. I would say it is impossible.

 

[BT]

Why is a correct view of the doctrine of the Trinity important? And, can one be a true Christian and deny the doctrine of the Trinity?

Hi Timothy! A correct understanding of the triune (three in one) God is essential to the Christian. No, you can not be a Christian and deny the doctrine of the Trinity. To attempt to do so would be in fact a belief in a false god. God is triune

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

As we clearly see in 1 John the trinity exists and is the essence of God. Therefore to deny the doctrine of the trinity is to deny the Bible, and you can not be a Christian and do that. You can of course think that you are a Christian, and claim that you are a Christian while denying the trinity but sadly at the judgement you will hear "I never knew you"... These who deny the trinity and thus deny God (in his three persons) but claim to be "Christians" follow a false Christ.

I am working on something regarding this and would appreciate imput. I personally hold to the doctrine of one God in three Persons, btw. I have even been berated here on CF for saying that one who does not hold to this doctrine is in error. And yet, for some strange reason, I haven't changed my beliefs.

I wouldn't be too worried about that. You can hear all kinds of strange things on CF that are not true. Luckily you can also find truth. I would encourage you to always stand in the face of error.

 

[2Timothy2]

Oops, I intended to say that I was berated on CF, but didn't mean to imply it was in the B/AB forum. It wasn't, it was actually in a PM. And the person is not Baptist. And thanks BT, I do and will indeed stand firm. And that is my understanding as well; a belief in some god that is not triune, is a belief in a god not of the Bible, and thus not the one true God. But I have a question about 1 John 5:7. My Scofield notes say that verse has no ms. authority. Scofield correct? It certainly does not say anything contrary to what the whole of Scripture says.

Thanks for the replies. I am posting this in a hurry this morning as I need to leave for work soon.

Grace and Peace
2T2

 

[@@Paul@@]

Oops, I intended to say that I was berated on CF, but didn't mean to imply it was in the B/AB forum. It wasn't, it was actually in a PM. And the person is not Baptist. And thanks BT, I do and will indeed stand firm. And that is my understanding as well; a belief in some god that is not triune, is a belief in a god not of the Bible, and thus not the one true God. But I have a question about 1 John 5:7. My Scofield notes say that verse has no ms. authority. Scofield correct? It certainly does not say anything contrary to what the whole of Scripture says.

Thanks for the replies. I am posting this in a hurry this morning as I need to leave for work soon.

Grace and Peace
2T2

This verse controversy is known the "The Johannine Comma".. These verses are questionable because portions of verse (7) and (8) are only found in the latin manuscripts and a few late greek mss...

So, some think the verses should read as follows:

1Jo 5:8-8 KJV
(7) For there are three that bear record...(8) ...the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.​

And not (omitted words added in green)...

1Jo 5:7-8 KJV
(7) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
(8) And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.​

I think Scofield's point was that we can't, with "authority", use those verses to prove the Trinity.

 

[costlygrace]

Hmmm.... interesting questions. Of course you could say that an important reason to believe in the Trinity is because it is true and the Bible says it. But here are some other reasons why it is important to the Christian life:

1) When you believe that Jesus is God, it puts His death in a very different perspective than if you just thought of Him as a man. This wasn't some man who died in our stead, it was God Himself! I could say more on that, but anyway, you get the point.
2)When you believe that Jesus is God, it helps you to take His teachings less lightly than you might otherwise--it motivates you to consider them to be of utmost importance.
3) When you believe that the Holy Spirit is also God, it helps you to take His moment by moment guidance less lightly and learn to listen better ("See that you do not ignore Him who is speaking" Hebrews 12:25), and it also helps you to realize what you would be doing if you say He has said something He has not said.

Of course people can profess to believe in the Trinity and not believe enough to do these things, but I feel that these are the most important reasons pertaining to the Christian life, as to why we should believe in the Trinity. As to whether someone can be a Christian and not believe in the Trinity, I think that at least in some cases only God is fit to decide that. Though of course it is an extremely important belief.

Blessings,
costlygrace

 

[BT]

I think Scofield's point was that we can't, with "authority", use those verses to prove the Trinity.

Yeah mabey that's his point, I haven't checked my Scofield yet. Luckily for us there are many many other verses that teach the trinity in both the Old and New Testaments...

 

[2Timothy2]

Just a bit off topic, but, congrats, BT, on the modship.

Yeah mabey that's his point, I haven't checked my Scofield yet. Luckily for us there are many many other verses that teach the trinity in both the Old and New Testaments...

That's the thing, isn't it. There are so many verses attesting to the deity AND separate personhood of the Father, Son, and Spirit. Obviously, we can't know everything and every nuance of this relationship, but we can show that the Bible teaches it. I wonder, do you think it is a matter of poor and/or improper study methods of Scripture that lead to errant views on the trinity? There must be more to it.

 

[MbiaJc]

Just a bit off topic, but, congrats, BT, on the modship.


That's the thing, isn't it. There are so many verses attesting to the deity AND separate personhood of the Father, Son, and Spirit. Obviously, we can't know everything and every nuance of this relationship, but we can show that the Bible teaches it. I wonder, do you think it is a matter of poor and/or improper study methods of Scripture that lead to errant views on the trinity? There must be more to it.

Well meaning people in most cases not letting the Holy Spirit interpit scriptures for them, rather using their carnal mind to interpit the scriptures.

 

[Matthan]

I find it rather humorous that there are some denominations that berate Baptists because they "believe in the trinity", and yet the "trinity" is not mentioned anywhere in Scripture. Hense, they claim, Baptists believe in something unscriptural. And yet we find in 1st John the following:

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The only thing missing from that verse is the word "trinity." Go figure.

Matthan

 

[Gold Dragon]

The Trinity is a complex concept that even trinitarians call a "mystery".

Does anyone believe that it is possible to have heretical or unorthodox view of the Trinity and still be saved if that view doesn't interfere with Jesus being both man and God as well as being a substitutional sacrifice for our sins?

I'm just throwing out a hypothetical here because I think it may be possible to have a non-Trinitarian view and still call Jesus "Lord", acknowledge his subsitutional sacrifice and repent. I am not so sure if a non-Trinitarian view of Jesus affects that. But maybe it does. I'm still wrestling with this one.

Here are some trinity-related heresies that have been debated in church history.

Adoptionism
Apollinarianism
Arianism
Docetism
Gnosticism
Monophysitism
Monarchianism
Nestorianism
Sabellism
Socianism

 

[Grace_of_God]

I would have to agree with those who've said that a belief in the trinity is essential to Christianity.

 

[NicodemusPrime]

The only thing missing from that verse is the word "trinity." Go figure.

I had a pastor one time who used 1 John 5:7 as sort of a litmus test to see whether or not he would recommend new translations that came out. Take for instance KJV says "these three are one", while the NLT says "all three agree". He claimed that such discrepancies tended to detract from the usefulness of a translation since this lessens the evidence for the trinity. I tend to agree with him in the matter of a primary study Bible. I still read my NLT as casual reading but my studies I generally use a Scofield KJV and Neilson KJV.

I don't think having complete understanding of the trinity is necessary for salvation, but it is necessary for understanding how and why we are saved.

 

[theseed]

BT, why does salvation depend on having correct theology? Why does one have know exactly what The Bible teaches to be a Christian--to be saved? Doesn't that not only make salvation based on a work, but based on doing a work perfectly?

 

[Diakoneo]

BT, why does salvation depend on having correct theology? Why does one have know exactly what The Bible teaches to be a Christian--to be saved? Doesn't that not only make salvation based on a work, but based on doing a work perfectly?

Aren't there some "core" theologies that must be understood to be saved? Like the death burial and resurrection of Christ? Can one be saved without knowing exactly what the Bible says about those doctrines? If we do not get our "how to be a Christian" from the Bible then we can't be saved, because the Bible is the completed revelation of God. Understanding what the Bible teaches is not "salvation based on works" it is salvation based on understanding. I've heard the Bible called "God's instruction manual" which is a term that seems to fit into this discussion. If you don't follow the manual how can you ever get the result? I mean, we can't follow everything perfectly because we're still humans, but we get the guidelines and the bar is set in the Bible. We ought to try to be perfect (if we aren't perfect we'll still go to heaven). So I would say that salvation does depend on having correct theology and it does depend on knowing exactly what the Bible teaches..

but that's just my take on it...

 

[BT]

BT, why does salvation depend on having correct theology? Why does one have know exactly what The Bible teaches to be a Christian--to be saved? Doesn't that not only make salvation based on a work, but based on doing a work perfectly?

Salvation depends on having a correct theology because salvation is based on a person (Jesus Christ) and the work that He did (on the cross). To understand this we use theology (the study of God). If you are studying a false theology (hence a false god) you aren't going to get to heaven. There is only One God and there is only One Way and we must know exactly what the Bible teaches is that way, and who the Bible teaches is that God. It has nothing to do with works it has to do with calling on the name of Jesus, repenting .. all of that. Which is taught in the Bible exactly and which must be done exactly. So no I would say that it does not make salvation works based, or based on doing a perfect work. It makes salvation based upon exactly what God (the true God, the triune God) says it is based upon.

 

[theseed]

Salvation depends on having a correct theology because salvation is based on a person (Jesus Christ) and the work that He did (on the cross).

That's a contradiction. If it is based on the work of Christ, then it can be based on our understanding of theology--a work of our own.

To understand this we use theology (the study of God). If you are studying a false theology (hence a false god) you aren't going to get to heaven.

Again, this is salvation based on works. Are you sure everthing you know about God is correct? If there is anything in the slightest off, then are you going to hell?

It has nothing to do with works it has to do with calling on the name of Jesus, repenting .. all of that

Which has nothing to do with correct theology.

So no I would say that it does not make salvation works based, or based on doing a perfect work.

Then why do you insist that our theology must be perfect to be saved?

It makes salvation based upon exactly what God (the true God, the triune God) says it is based upon.

And if God says it is not based on works, then it can't be based on having a perfect theology which would be a work.

 

[2Timothy2]

Theseed;

I think you may have a skewed understanding of what works are. Works, I believe, refers primarily to works of the law, those rites and rituals that were meant by God to change man’s heart and cause repentance and faith. (That is somewhat over simplified, I know.)

(Gal 2:16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

(Rom 4:5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

How can one believe something with absolutely no understanding of it at all?

(Rom 3:28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

(Heb 11:1-3) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (2) For by it the elders obtained a good report. (3) Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

(Rom 10:16-17) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I do not believe that hearing here refers to the passive intake of sound, rather an understanding, to some extent. Therefore, understanding is not a work. I can hear my neighbors talk, but I do not understand Spanish. We must understand certain things, to some extent, or we will not have anything in which to believe. We must understand there is a God, and only one God, and we must understand Jesus is God and that He died for our sins. We further must understand that we can do nothing to gain or earn justification. This is having an understanding of good theology, limited though it may be.

What I understand you to be saying is similar to the error of calling faith a work. But faith can not be a work either since it is directly contrasted with work, as in Eph 2:8-9. Since we are saved through faith and not by works, faith cannot be a work.

 

[MbiaJc]

originally posted by BTSalvation depends on having a correct theology because salvation is based on a person (Jesus Christ) and the work that He did (on the cross).

Both of you are wrong in different ways. BT you do not haft to have a correct theology to be saved. For the bibles says even those that believe in His name will be saved. I sure didn't have a correct theology when I was saved. All I knew at the time was, I was a sinner on a road to hell and Jesus would forgive me and put me on a road to heaven.

Originally posted by Theseed
That's a contradiction. If it is based on the work of Christ, then it can be based on our understanding of theology--a work of our own.

Salvation totally depends on the work of Christ. It is not even our faith that saves us it is the faith of Jesus Christ. Salvation is a gracious gift, a gift of grace, a free gift, there is nothing you can do to earn it and you sure can't buy it.

 

[BT]

Both of you are wrong in different ways. BT you do not haft to have a correct theology to be saved. For the bibles says even those that believe in His name will be saved. I sure didn't have a correct theology when I was saved. All I knew at the time was, I was a sinner on a road to hell and Jesus would forgive me and put me on a road to heaven.

Dude! You're totally missing the point. That you MUST believe in His name IS PERFECT THEOLOGY. False theology would be that you do not have to believe in His name. So yes, you had correct theology when you were saved, because if you didn't you couldn't be saved... That's the point. That you were a sinner, on a road to hell and Jesus would forgive you and put you on a road to heaven is exactly what I'm saying you MUST understand... it is the true theology.. it is perfect theology because it is THE Biblical theology. Woops went a little zany with the bold there.. sorry bro. Thanks for proving my point!

Salvation totally depends on the work of Christ. It is not even our faith that saves us it is the faith of Jesus Christ. Salvation is a gracious gift, a gift of grace, a free gift, there is nothing you can do to earn it and you sure can't buy it.

Amen! But you have to know it! Right?