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Question about the Law and Penal Substitution

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by dms1972, Jul 16, 2020.

  1. dms1972

    dms1972 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hi,

    I have been thinking about this and reading a book on the Atonement and I want to understand in what framework is the Atonement meant to be understood (for us today as Gentiles), or can be it be understood in different frameworks? What I was thinking was how different a context we live in from ancient israel. It depends of course on ones country what their laws are based on I think. But we haven't had an experience like the Israelites (ie deliverance from Egypt, giving of the ten commandments etc, sacrificial system.) So given our context does a purely legal or forensic framework (Law, Guilt, Condemnation, Reconciliation) make sense to people. If we went to Sunday School as children we no doubt were told about the ten commandments, the and the sermon on the mount and other Bible stories.

    ANyway I just was wondering about it since we have our own law systems. What way is the atonement to suppose to be understood?
     
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  2. FenderTL5

    FenderTL5 864511320 Supporter

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    Atonement in one sentence:
    Through Him who became incarnate was Hades taken prisoner, and Adam has been summoned back; the curse has been neutralized, and Eve has been liberated; death has been put to death, and we have been brought to life.
     
  3. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother? Supporter

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    As you probably know, there are several schools of thought on this subject.

    The interpretive framework I gravitate toward is Satisfaction Theory Of Atonement. It grants authentic forgiveness for sins -- something other models don't necessarily do.

    To use your legal metaphor, it isn't possible for Our Lord to be held juridically guilty for our sins. It's not even logical. Therefore, He can't really be punished for our sins as tho He's literally guilty of having committed them. And this my real grievance with the Penal Substitution model.
     
  4. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Jesus became our substitute. In dying on the cross, in yielding His life an atonement for sin, He made adequate compensation for the wrong done; He met in full the penalty of the broken law of God.

    Christ's sacrifice in behalf of man was full and complete. The condition of the atonement had been fulfilled. The work for which He had come to this world had been accomplished.

    But the work accomplished on Calvary involves also the application of the atoning sacrifice of Christ to the seeking soul. This is provided for in the priestly ministry of our blessed Lord, our great High Priest in the sanctuary above.

    John 14:6

    Berean Study Bible
    Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

    His way ...

    Psalms 77
    13Your way, O God, is in the sanctuary;

    1 John 2:6

    5But if anyone keeps His word, the love of God has been truly perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him: 6Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.

    May He help all of us to walk with Him daily. Amen.
     
  5. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    I just finished reading St Athanasius' little book "On The Incarnation," again. And what you wrote is right, very right. The language of "Penal Substitution" is not the religion of Athanasius.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2020
  6. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    First off: If you are forgiven 100% then there is nothing to pay and if Christ paid 100% there is nothing to forgive. That is Law.

    Penal Substitution is not fair/just where you have the innocent being punished (even if the innocent is willing to be punished) so the guilty can go free.

    The “Satisfaction Theory of Atonement” put the problem of forgiveness in God’s lap needing Christ to be cruelly, tortured, humiliated and murdered (sounding very blood thirsty) in order to be personally satisfied to forgive.

    God would have no problem forgiving, God is totally fair and just, but any rebellious disobedient child needs more then just forgiveness, since if at all possible a wonderful parent would see to the fair/just Loving discipline of His children for all the benefits discipline provides. Atonement thus is a disciplining process we go through with God and Christ as we are crucified “with Christ”.

    The Jews under the Law would have a good understanding of atonement by experiencing atonement for very minor sins which took little disciplining:



    Lev.4 starts atonement off giving details of what the priest must do, which you should read and understand, but Lev.5 gets into more detail about the individual, so please read Lev. 5 with much thought. I find people with pet theories of atonement skip Lev. 5 all together and might go to Lev. 16, but the day of atonement has some lite symbolic references to Christ, Lev 5 is a closer representation. I will discuss Lev. 16 if you want any time, but it takes some explaining of what and why it was needed by itself. Please read Lev. 5 before going further.

    Atonement is much more than the sacrifice itself, it is a process which we can see from the Old Testament examples of the atonement process.

    We can start with Lev. 5: 3 or if they touch human uncleanness (anything that would make them unclean) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt; 4 or if anyone thoughtlessly takes an oath to do anything, whether good or evil (in any matter one might carelessly swear about) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt— 5 when anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned. 6 As a penalty for the sin they have committed, they must bring to the Lord a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for them for their sin. … 10 The priest shall then offer the other as a burnt offering in the prescribed way and make atonement for them for the sin they have committed, and they will be forgiven.

    Lev. 5 is talking about some really minor sins almost accidental sins and very much unintentional sins, there is no atonement process at this time for major sins, intentional direct disobedience toward God (these require banishment or death of the sinner).

    The atonement process includes confessing, securing a good offering, personally bringing the offering to the priests at the temple altar, the priest has to offer it correctly and after the atonement process is correctly completed the sinner’s sins will be forgiven.

    Note also the relationship between the sinner and the offering, the offering is “as a penalty for the sin” and not a replacement for the sinner. The idea of “penalty” is a “punishment” for the sinner, yet punishment of your child is better translated “disciplining”.

    Reading all of Lev. 5: we have a lamb, two doves and a bag of flour all being an atoning sacrifice for the exact same sin, but vary with the wealth of the sinner, yet God does not consider the wealthy person of great value then the poor person, so what is happening? We can only conclude there is an attempt to equalize the hardship on the sinner (penalty/punishment/discipline). In fact, this might be the main factor in the atonement process at least Lev. 5. God is not only forgiving the sins, but seeing to the discipling of the sinner (like any Loving parent tries to do if possible). The problem is it can only be done for minor sins at this time.

    Please notice there is an “and” just before “they will be forgiven”, suggesting a separate action, so the forgiveness is not part of the atonement process, but comes afterwards (this will be discussed more later).

    Do you see the benefit for the Jewish people (nothing really to help God out here) going through this atonement process? That rich person had to water, feed, hang on to a lamb, he is not the lamb’s shepherd, so for hours waiting in line to get to the priest he fighting this lamb and the poor person may have skipped meals to get that bag of flour, so he has an equal hardship also. They are going to be more careful in the future and those around them will not want to go through the same thing. Yes, they can experience worship, forgiveness, and fellowship.

    We should be able to extrapolate up from extremely minor sins to rebellious disobedience directly against God, but that is a huge leap, so the hardship on the sinner will have to be horrendous, the sacrifice of much greater value (penalty for the sinner), and this will take a much greater Priest.

    Please think up some questions to ask me.
     
  7. Stone-n-Steel

    Stone-n-Steel Active Member Supporter

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    You can look at Gen 6:14 and see atonement used as "pitch" for the Ark. You can also look at Rom 5:11 where the word gets used as reconciliation.

    I think in both cases the substance is supplied by God. In the latter it is the perfect blood of Jesus. Since we are not being asked to build an Ark or go inside on today, I am sticking by the blood of Jesus as my atonement. Since the terms of Salvation changed over time it is not proper to compare us today with Israel of the past.
     
  8. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    Mat 12:40
    For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly;
    so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights
    in the heart of the earth.



    If Christ was killed on Friday and rose Sunday morning
    that would be three days (Friday, Saturday and Sunday)
    but that would only be two nights (Friday and Saturday)

    So how do you get three nights?


    Jim
    .
     
  9. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Rom 5:11 uses the Greek word "katallage" but this is absent in the LXX in Gen 6:14. So, I don't know how you make this claim.

    I agree that the Blood is supplied by God.
     
  10. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    Briefly I feel He died on Thurs.
     
  11. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    So you think He was in the "heart of the earth" for four (4) days
    and three (3) nights?

    Thursday and Friday and Saturday and Sunday = 4 days

    Mat 12:40
    For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly;
    so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights
    in the heart of the earth.


    .
     
  12. dms1972

    dms1972 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Could we keep it on topic please.

    My question is that many of us have not grown up as part of a people that had the ten commandments - if we knew of them we knew of them through going to sunday school, but does every government / country base its laws on them? More and more they seem to be moving away from them eg. Sunday trading laws. How can you break them if they were not given to you, or your government doesn't uphold them? What do you say to a tribesperson that never heard of them? Therefore how he know his need of salvation unless he lived in a society which had a law-guilt-condemnation-reconciliation framework - such as ancient Israel. So in what framework does a missionary/ minister present the Gospel to such a tribesperson, or for that matter unchurched folks in our own society? Do they present the Ten Commandments to them first, or what?
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
  13. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    He rose before sun rise on Sunday.
    Thursday daylight, Friday daylight, Saturday daylight
    Friday night, Saturday night and Sunday night
     
  14. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    Am I missing something...
    or did you just say "He rose BEFORE sun rise on Sunday"
    and then count "Sunday night"? It cannot be both.
    I commend you for at least trying to answer.
    But clearly you are not there yet.


    .
     
  15. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    The Jewish Sunday started at sundown on our Saturday, so night comes first. Remember how they had to get Jesus in the grave before sundown, because the next day was a Sabbath day (I am suggesting that Sabbath day was not the Saturday but the Passover Sabbath day, since Passover is also a Sabbath day.)
     
  16. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    We are commanded to preach a Gospel of repentance because
    all men have sinned and the wages of sin is (eternal) death.


    We are also commanded to REJECT those who reject Jesus
    or the Gospel.


    Mar 6:11-12
    And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you,
    when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet
    for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be
    more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment,
    than for that city. And they went out, and preached that men should repent.


    Now I realize that many people want to "win" souls for Christ.
    However, that is NOT how it works - and that is NOT what we
    were commanded to do.


    Mat 28:18-20
    And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
    All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
    Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in
    the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
    Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the age.
    Amen.


    .
     
  17. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    The way I view the atonement is first of all "God is just" 2Th 1:6 and what follows that verse implies there being two arms of justice. One punishes the wicked. And the other compensates victims of unjustified suffering. Jesus, dying as a victim of unjustified suffering, was awarded compensation with which he paid off the debt of others, one arm of justice cancelling out the other.

    The atonement was about justice being satisfied, as it says in Rom 3:25,26 "God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

    The "penal substittuion" theory is just the opposite of that. It portrays God as unjust. Jesus is innocent, but God pretends he's guilty of the sins of the world and pours his wrath upon him, an act of injustice on God's part showing God to be unjust, which does just the opposite of what Rom 3:25,26 indicates.
     
  18. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    You are correct, Jewish "days" begin in the evenings.

    So... if Christ had to be in the grave before sundown on Friday
    That would be day #1 and Saturday would be day #2
    (until sundown on Sunday)...
    so that gives us TWO DAYS (Friday and Saturday)
    and ONE NIGHT (Saturday)

    -------

    If you suggest Christ had to be in the grave before sundown on Sat.
    That would be day #1 and would continue until Sunday sundown...
    which is ONE day and ONE night?

    I appreciate your response... but we are getting farther away
    from 3 days and 3 nights.

    Jim
    .
     
  19. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    Whether you believe the Substitution theory or the
    Penal theory... in both cases the Atonement could have only
    covered "His Sheep"... otherwise there would be nobody in hell.

    God is loving, but He is also Righteous and if the penalty
    for sin is eternal punishment then it must be PAID by Christ
    or PAID by the sinner... there is no Scripture suggesting it must
    be PAID TWICE.

    And no Scripture saying sin can go unpaid...
    or that the SINGLE SIN is not "accepting" Jesus.

    You need to harmonize ALL RELATED SCRIPTURES
    before you can pretend to have found Biblical Truth.
    That is why a "particular" Atonement is the only option.

    Jim
    ..
     
  20. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    OK... reading back on your responses I see you said
    you think Christ was killed on THURSDAY before sundown.

    So, being that Jewish "days" begin at sundown...

    Death before sundown on Thursday = Wednesday night
    Thursday night and Friday night and Saturday night = 4 nights
    before Sunday sunrise.

    Wednesday day + Thursday day + Friday day + Saturday day
    = 4 Days.

    4 days and 4 nights?

    .
     
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