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Question about the Kaaba

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sur

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Briefly speaking(I'll InshAllah try to look up & post references):-

*First "house" for worship build on earth was Kabba.Quran:3:96
*There's a u can say "Palace" of God beyond 7th sky called "Bait-ul-Mamoor", Kabba is exactly below it.
*it's foundations got obscured with time.
*Then Ibraheem(pbuh) re-built Kabba on it's old foundations, indicated to him by Angel.(Q:2:125,127, )
*Ibraheem worshipped God as one, but with time ppl deviated & started worshipping idols & pictures of Prophets & of Mary(Maryam). Those idoltorors filled Kabba with their idols & pictures.
*Then Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) removed such from Kabba & restored it back to it's original use.


[Q:3:96] The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings:
 
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sur

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If i'm not wrong, old maps of world showed north & south opposite of what they r today; so sinai peninsula would be in south of kabba as per such a map:-

Gen:12:7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.8 And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.9And Abram journeyed, going on still toward the south(so he built altar en-route to Egypt)
10 And there was a famine in the land: and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was grievous in the land.





Then he went back from Egypt to place where he built that Altar:-
GEN 13:3 And he went on his journeys from the south even to Bethel, unto the place where his tent had been at the beginning, between Bethel and Hai; 4Unto the place of the altar which he had make there at the first: and there Abram called on the name of the LORD




*As per Islam, Ibraheem left Ismail & Hagar in this desert, near place where Kabba was to be re-built. This is also indicated in bible when Sarah felt bad about ismael mocking Isaac, Hagar left.
*Then Angel hit ground & a well sprang forth, called Zam-Zam, still running by Kabba.
*Later when Ismael grew up, he & Ibraheem re-built Kabba on it's old foundations.



 
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sur

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Following Long Hadees throws some light on Islamic POV on Kabba:-

Sahih Bukhari:55:583:-
Narated By Ibn Abbas : The first lady to use a girdle was the mother of Ishmael. She used a girdle so that she might hide her tracks from Sarah. Abraham brought her and her son Ishmael while she was suckling him, to a place near the Ka'ba under a tree on the spot of Zam-Zam, at the highest place in the mosque. During those days there was nobody in Mecca, nor was there any water So he made them sit over there and placed near them a leather bag containing some dates, and a small water-skin containing some water, and set out homeward. Ishmael's mother followed him saying, "O Abraham! Where are you going, leaving us in this valley where there is no person whose company we may enjoy, nor is there anything (to enjoy)?" She repeated that to him many times, but he did not look back at her Then she asked him, "Has Allah ordered you to do so?" He said, "Yes." She said, "Then He will not neglect us," and returned while Abraham proceeded onwards, and on reaching the Thaniya where they could not see him, he faced the Ka'ba, and raising both hands, invoked Allah saying the following prayers:
'O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Your Sacred House (Kaba at Mecca) in order, O our Lord, that they may offer prayer perfectly. So fill some hearts among men with love towards them, and (O Allah) provide them with fruits, so that they may give thanks.' (14.37) Ishmael's mother went on suckling Ishmael and drinking from the water (she had).
When the water in the water-skin had all been used up, she became thirsty and her child also became thirsty. She started looking at him (i.e. Ishmael) tossing in agony; She left him, for she could not endure looking at him, and found that the mountain of Safa was the nearest mountain to her on that land. She stood on it and started looking at the valley keenly so that she might see somebody, but she could not see anybody. Then she descended from Safa and when she reached the valley, she tucked up her robe and ran in the valley like a person in distress and trouble, till she crossed the valley and reached the Marwa mountain where she stood and started looking, expecting to see somebody, but she could not see anybody. She repeated that (running between Safa and Marwa) seven times."
The Prophet said, "This is the source of the tradition of the walking of people between them (i.e. Safa and Marwa). When she reached the Marwa (for the last time) she heard a voice and she asked herself to be quiet and listened attentively. She heard the voice again and said, 'O, (whoever you may be)! You have made me hear your voice; have you got something to help me?" And behold! She saw an angel at the place of Zam-Zam, digging the earth with his heel (or his wing), till water flowed from that place. She started to make something like a basin around it, using her hand in this way, and started filling her water-skin with water with her hands, and the water was flowing out after she had scooped some of it."
The Prophet added, "May Allah bestow Mercy on Ishmael's mother! Had she let the Zam-Zam (flow without trying to control it) (or had she not scooped from that water) (to fill her water-skin), Zam-Zam would have been a stream flowing on the surface of the earth." The Prophet further added, "Then she drank (water) and suckled her child. The angel said to her, 'Don't be afraid of being neglected, for this is the House of Allah which will be built by this boy and his father, and Allah never neglects His people.' The House (i.e. Kaba) at that time was on a high place resembling a hillock, and when torrents came, they flowed to its right and left. She lived in that way till some people from the tribe of Jurhum or a family from Jurhum passed by her and her child, as they (i.e. the Jurhum people) were coming through the way of Kada'. They landed in the lower part of Mecca where they saw a bird that had the habit of flying around water and not leaving it. They said, 'This bird must be flying around water, though we know that there is no water in this valley.' They sent one or two messengers who discovered the source of water, and returned to inform them of the water. So, they all came (towards the water)." The Prophet added, "Ishmael's mother was sitting near the water. They asked her, 'Do you allow us to stay with you?" She replied, 'Yes, but you will have no right to possess the water.' They agreed to that." The Prophet further said, "Ishmael's mother was pleased with the whole situation as she used to love to enjoy the company of the people. So, they settled there, and later on they sent for their families who came and settled with them so that some families became permanent residents there. The child (i.e. Ishmael) grew up and learnt Arabic from them and (his virtues) caused them to love and admire him as he grew up, and when he reached the age of puberty they made him marry a woman from amongst them.
After Ishmael's mother had died, Abraham came after Ishmael's marriage in order to see his family that he had left before, but he did not find Ishmael there. When he asked Ishmael's wife about him, she replied, 'He has gone in search of our livelihood.' Then he asked her about their way of living and their condition, and she replied, 'We are living in misery; we are living in hardship and destitution,' complaining to him. He said, 'When your husband returns, convey my salutation to him and tell him to change the threshold of the gate (of his house).' When Ishmael came, he seemed to have felt something unusual, so he asked his wife, 'Has anyone visited you?' She replied, 'Yes, an old man of so-and-so description came and asked me about you and I informed him, and he asked about our state of living, and I told him that we were living in a hardship and poverty.' On that Ishmael said, 'Did he advise you anything?' She replied, 'Yes, he told me to convey his salutation to you and to tell you to change the threshold of your gate.' Ishmael said, 'It was my father, and he has ordered me to divorce you. Go back to your family.' So, Ishmael divorced her and married another woman from amongst them (i.e. Jurhum).
Then Abraham stayed away from them for a period as long as Allah wished and called on them again but did not find Ishmael. So he came to Ishmael's wife and asked her about Ishmael. She said, 'He has gone in search of our livelihood.' Abraham asked her, 'How are you getting on?' asking her about their sustenance and living. She replied, 'We are prosperous and well-off (i.e. we have everything in abundance).' Then she thanked Allah' Abraham said, 'What kind of food do you eat?' She said. 'Meat.' He said, 'What do you drink?' She said, 'Water." He said, "O Allah! Bless their meat and water." The Prophet added, "At that time they did not have grain, and if they had grain, he would have also invoked Allah to bless it." The Prophet added, "If somebody has only these two things as his sustenance, his health and disposition will be badly affected, unless he lives in Mecca." The Prophet added," Then Abraham said Ishmael's wife, "When your husband comes, give my regards to him and tell him that he should keep firm the threshold of his gate.' When Ishmael came back, he asked his wife, 'Did anyone call on you?' She replied, 'Yes, a good-looking old man came to me,' so she praised him and added. 'He asked about you, and I informed him, and he asked about our livelihood and I told him that we were in a good condition.' Ishmael asked her, 'Did he give you any piece of advice?' She said, 'Yes, he told me to give his regards to you and ordered that you should keep firm the threshold of your gate.' On that Ishmael said, 'It was my father, and you are the threshold (of the gate). He has ordered me to keep you with me.'
Then Abraham stayed away from them for a period as long as Allah wished, and called on them afterwards. He saw Ishmael under a tree near Zam-Zam, sharpening his arrows. When he saw Abraham, he rose up to welcome him (and they greeted each other as a father does with his son or a son does with his father). Abraham said, 'O Ishmael! Allah has given me an order.' Ishmael said, 'Do what your Lord has ordered you to do.' Abraham asked, 'Will you help me?' Ishmael said, 'I will help you.' Abraham said, Allah has ordered me to build a house here,' pointing to a hillock higher than the land surrounding it." The Prophet added, "Then they raised the foundations of the House (i.e. the Ka'ba). Ishmael brought the stones and Abraham was building, and when the walls became high, Ishmael brought this stone and put it for Abraham who stood over it and carried on building, while Ishmael was handing him the stones, and both of them were saying, 'O our Lord! Accept (this service) from us, Verily, You are the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.' The Prophet added, "Then both of them went on building and going round the Ka'ba saying: O our Lord ! Accept (this service) from us, Verily, You are the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing." (2.127)



Following Ahadees r about ppl who deviated from True teachings of Ibraheem & Ismael & went into idols worship:-
SB:26:671:-
When Allah's Apostle came to Mecca, he refused to enter the Ka'ba with idols in it. He ordered (idols to be taken out). So they were taken out. The people took out the pictures of Abraham and Ishmael holding Azlams in their hands. Allah's Apostle said, "May Allah curse these people. By Allah, both Abraham and Ishmael never did the game of chance with Azlams." Then he entered the Ka'ba and said Takbir at its corners but did not offer the prayer in it.

SB:55:570:-
The Prophet entered the Ka'ba and found in it the pictures of (Prophet) Abraham and Mary. On that he said' "What is the matter with them (i.e. Quraish)? They have already heard that angels do not enter a house in which there are pictures; yet this is the picture of Abraham. And why is he depicted as practicing divination by arrows?"

SB:59:584:-
When Allah's Apostle arrived in Mecca, he refused to enter the Ka'ba while there were idols in it. So he ordered that they be taken out. The pictures of the (Prophets) Abraham and Ishmael, holding arrows of divination in their hands, were carried out. The Prophet said, "May Allah ruin them (i.e. the infidels) for they knew very well that they (i.e. Abraham and Ishmael) never drew lots by these (divination arrows). Then the Prophet entered the Ka'ba and said. "Allahu Akbar" in all its directions and came out and not offer any prayer therein.
 
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sur

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Ahadees about Ibraheem making Macca a sanctuary:-
SB:34:339:-
The Prophet said, "The Prophet Abraham made Mecca a sanctuary, and asked for Allah's blessing in it. I made Medina a sanctuary as Abraham made Mecca a sanctuary and I asked for Allah's Blessing in its measures the Mudd and the Sa as Abraham did for Mecca.
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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Thanks Sur

Secundulus, keep in mind...

It is supposed to have been built by Abraham and Ishmael, al-Baqarah 2:127. However, historical data contradict this belief, as none of them ever went to Mecca, see the article Ishmael is not the Father of Muhammad.


Guillaume also points out difficulties :
"... there is no historical evidence for the assertion that Abraham or Ishmael was ever in Mecca, and if there had been such a tradition it would have to be explained how all memory of the Old Semitic name Ishmael (which was not in its true Arabian form in Arabian inscriptions and written correctly with an initial consonant Y) came to be lost. The form in the Quran is taken either from Greek or Syriac sources." (Alfred Guillaume, Islam, Penguin Books Inc., Baltimore, 1956, pages 61-62)​
 
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Arthra

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There may be no "historical evidence" that Abraham or Ishamel were around the Mecca area..but then there's not a lot of historical evidence for a lot of things..

I find the Biblical "Beth-el" where Jacob erected a stone and called it the "House of God" interesting and a possible parallel to the story of Abraham and Ishmael building the Kaaba.

18And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it.

19And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first.
20And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,
21So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God: 22And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.
 
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well, BushMaster;

saying that there is no historical evidence that Kaaba was built by Abraham and Ishmail, is like saying there is no evidence that the french people built the liberty statue, or you can say that the history writings prove that, then I must say that the Quran proves that, or even the same building (Kaaba).

but I think you don't believe in Quran so you don't take it as source of your information, but still, you have to prove that it wasn't built by Abraham.
 
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Montalban

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If i'm not wrong, old maps of world showed north & south opposite of what they r today; so sinai peninsula would be in south of kabba as per such a map:-

No, that's false. They may have had the map 'upside-down', but then south would be at the top of the map, north at the bottom, and Sinai would still be north of Kaaba on such a map.
 
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Montalban

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There may be no "historical evidence" that Abraham or Ishamel were around the Mecca area..but then there's not a lot of historical evidence for a lot of things..
Indeed, but without wishing to de-rail this thread, you argue against certain Christian beliefs on the same grounds.

You pick and choose which bits have no evidence you still want to believe
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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well, BushMaster;

saying that there is no historical evidence that Kaaba was built by Abraham and Ishmail, is like saying there is no evidence that the french people built the liberty statue,

There is PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE that French built the Liberty Lady. Provide your similar evidence here to us.

or you can say that the history writings prove that, then I must say that the Quran proves that, or even the same building (Kaaba).

Quran is NOT AN EVIDENCE TO ANYTHING at all my friend. To prove itself as an historical evidence, it needs to corroborate its stories with external evidences which it almost always fails.

but I think you don't believe in Quran so you don't take it as source of your information, but still, you have to prove that it wasn't built by Abraham.

I did believe in Quran for 22 years. Only until I read the Bible without objection and confusion. I don't have to prove anything at this time, because our evidence do not suggest that he ever traveled out of his way down to Mecca, this is your assertion, you have the burden of proof to support your position. And by doing so, you can't really rely on the CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES by misinterpreting them as sur just demonstrated above.

No, that's false. They may have had the map 'upside-down', but then south would be at the top of the map, north at the bottom, and Sinai would still be north of Kaaba on such a map.

:clap:

You pick and choose which bits have no evidence you still want to believe

Fathers called this attitude "heresy"...

As far as I remember there is not any historical evidence for the existence of any Biblical Prophet.

Such as...?
 
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Arthra

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No one has any "historical" evidence when the Kaaba was built or by whom but we know what was revealed to Prophet Muhammad.

Ancient religions around Egypt had a monotheistic origin according to Wallis Budge:

"The Egyptians believed in the existence of God, the
Creator and Maintainer of all things, but they thought that the
concerns of this world were committed by Him to the superintendence of
a series of subordinate spirits or beings called "gods," over whom they
believed magical spells and ceremonies to have the greatest influence.
The Deity was a Being so remote, and of such an exalted nature, that it
was idle to expect Him to interfere in the affairs of mortals, or to​
change any decree or command which He had once uttered."

and read the article about monotheism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheistic#In_ancient_Egypt

So from what we know nothing contradicts the story of Abraham and Ismael building the Kaaba.

If Abraham could travel from Ur of the Chaldees to Egypt He could have travelled easily to the area around the Kaaba. When historical evidence is lacking consider the probabilities.

- Art
 
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NOTW

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bushmaster;

like every person,

tell me then who built Kaaba.

you don't know,

then what you can't prove it's false,

you can't reject.

what says that Abraham wasn't around that area?

is it the bible?

search for the Jesus Seminar.
I can give you the answers to these questions.
It is proven that there has been multiple Kaabas present prior to Muhammed.
There are sources that say that there were multiple such "Kaaba" sanctuaries in Arabia at one time, but this is the only one that was built of stone. The others also allegedly had counterparts to the Black Stone. There was a "red stone", the deity of the south Arabian city of Ghaiman, and the "white stone" in the Ka'ba of al-Abalat (near the city of Tabala, south of Mecca) - [Imoti, Eiichi. "The Ka'ba-i Zardušt", Orient, XV (1979), The Society for Near Eastern Studies in Japan, pp. 65-69.]
Many Kaabas were built prior to Muhammed as sanctuaries and temples for pagan idols.
 
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NOTW

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If i'm not wrong, old maps of world showed north & south opposite of what they r today; so sinai peninsula would be in south of kabba as per such a map:-

Gen:12:7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.8 And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.9And Abram journeyed, going on still toward the south(so he built altar en-route to Egypt)
10 And there was a famine in the land: and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was grievous in the land.

Mecca is NOT en-route to Egypt from Canaan. Look it up :thumbsup:
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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bushmaster;

like every person,

tell me then who built Kaaba.

Like every person? What? Why would I be interested in finding out who built the black cube where you people kiss a black stone that supposedly fell from heaven??? We only know our side of the history, the claim is yours that Abraham traveled down to Mecca, which has nothing to do with Egypt, Canaan, Sinai, etc.

you don't know,

then what you can't prove it's false,

I don't know who built it, maybe pagan arabs did, that is not the point we are making, Abraham didn't.

you can't reject.

what says that Abraham wasn't around that area?

is it the bible?

If I tell you "yes it is the Bible" how are you going to refute it?

search for the Jesus Seminar.

Jesus seminar? Why would I want to be interested in bunch of ex-catholic, ex-christian heretics opinions?

[/color][/font][/color]
Mecca is NOT en-route to Egypt from Canaan. Look it up :thumbsup: [/color]

:thumbsup:
 
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NOTW

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I don't know who built it, maybe pagan arabs did, that is not the point we are making, Abraham didn't.
DING DING DING!!!
And the correct answer is:

One notable center of Hubal-worship is said to have been at the Kaaba at Mecca, prior to the religious reforms instituted by Muhammad in AD 630. At that time, the moon god Hubal was the senior-most of the 360 god idols worshipped in the shrine.
About four hundred years before the birth of Muhammad, a man named Amr bin Lahyo bin Harath bin Amr ul-Qais bin Thalaba bin Azd bin Khalan bin Babalyun bin Saba, who was descended from Qahtan and king of Hijaz (the northwestern section of Saudi Arabia, which encompassed the cities of Mecca and Medina), had placed a Hubal idol onto the roof of the Kaaba, and this idol was one of the chief deities of the ruling Quraysh tribe. The idol was made of red agate, and shaped like a human, but with the right hand broken off and replaced with a golden hand. When the idol was moved inside the Kaaba, it had seven arrows in front of it, which were used for divination.[5] According to Karen Armstrong, in her book Islam: A Short History, the Kaaba was dedicated to Hubal, and contained 360 idols which probably represented the days of the year,[6] and Hubal's was said to be the grandest of the idols. As an infant, Muhammad was brought before Hubal by his grandfather Abd al-Muttalib, even at-Tabari (a well-acknowledged Muslim scholar) records in The History of the Prophets and Kings 1:157:
When Muhammad conquered Mecca in AD 630, he ended the Quraysh's tradition of idol-worship by smashing the statue of Hubal along with the other 360 idols at the Kaaba, and re-dedicated the structure to Allah, the one God
 
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