Question about suicide

[TCat]

Hey all, I just returned home from the memorial service of a young father who commited suicide last week. Oh my aching heart...he left a beautiful 4 year old son, whom we all knew he loves so much.

As we were leaving an elder in the church came by and gave me a hug and said to the group I was grieving with that God must have decided that it was Brian's time and therefore allowed him to succeed in his taking his life.

Any comments? I know that some people, thankfully, fail in their attempts to kill themselves. Is that God's intervention, it would seem so but when they succeed is that his allowing or deciding it is their time? Something seems so wrong in all of this.

 

[twin.spin]

I first of all say how tragic and sorry for you and the family.

The circumstance in this particular case, being unknown, makes it difficult to comment on without risking being incorrect. However, there are 6 cases of suicide recorded in the Bible....Samson is not one of them. Samson is described as a person of faith Hebrews 11:32

Abimelech (Judges 9:52-54),
Saul (1 Samuel 31:4)
Saul's armor-bearer (1 Samuel 31:5)
Ahithophel (2 Samuel 17:23)
Zimri (1 Kings 16:15-20)
Judas Iscariot (Matthew 27:3-5)

With the case of the six, suicide was done in an act of despair and unbelief, which forfeits salvation. Which is what sends people to hell .... unbelief.

Some suicides happen from a pyschological disorder or a personal crisis who acts rashly in the heat of the moment. In cases like this, suicide is a sin and God comforts us with this:

"But where sin increased, grace increased all the more" Romans 5:20

 

[Studeclunker]

Suicide is one of the most difficult questions for the Christian to deal with. The Word offers little in the way of illumination on this question. However, Romans 5:20 is one of the scriptures I cling to when contemplating the fate of my wife. Robin committed suicide in September of 1990. I she in Hell? Well lets look at a few clues. Martin Luther was a far more educated man and much more brilliant besides, than I am. He didn't think that suicide guarenteed damnation. But just what is suicide except of murder. Murder of self, certainly, yet the same as murdering someone else weather they be relative, son, daughter, mother, father, or a complete stranger.

The examples given in the previous post are illuminating. Abimilech, Saul and his armour bearer, Ahithopel, and Judas are examples of people who really never believed in the first place. David, for example, commited murder as well and was forgiven. He was forgiven because of his faith. Some would say that David was forgiven because he repented so strongly. But does not that suggest that our salvation might be based in part , at least, on our works?

At the same time, our pastor here in Redding would say that 'murder robs someone (even themselves) of grace. Our span of years here on earth is a span of grace given to us by a loving God.'

As we were leaving an elder in the church came by and gave me a hug and said to the group I was grieving with that God must have decided that it was Brian's time and therefore allowed him to succeed in his taking his life.

Oi vay! This fellow sounds like an ELCA member. They believe in that kind of Greek Philosophical rubbish. God is perfectly just, righteous, and Holy. To suggest his approbation on such an act as murder, is faintly blasphemos. However, he has demonstrated his grace and lovingkindness even whilst we neither wanted it nor deserved it. All we can do in a case like this is to cling to the cross and mercy of Christ.

Are Brian and Robin in Hell? I can't give you a firm answer on that. From what I know of God's mercy and grace shown to us even while we were dead in our sins, demonstrates to me that both are waiting for us in Heaven. Doubtless a bit embarrassed, but doubtless there nonetheless.

 

[DaRev]

Wer can only look to this comfort in such circumstances: Exodus 33:19b, "I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

 

[TCat]

Thank you for your responses, actually I do believe that Brian is in Heaven. His faith and actions prior to this deed would suggest that he did have faith in Jesus as his Savior.
No, my question was really with the suggestion that God allowed his suicide to be successful because his time on earth was over. I have a co-worker whose father attempted sucide the day after Brian's death and was thankfully unsuccessful. The gentleman is now at the psych ward in a hospital healing physcially and I pray emotionally and spiritually as well.
The statement this older man at church gave made me wonder about free will and our choice to defy God's will in the taking of life. It's been a rough week, with these deaths and the death of two children in our church community.
My prayer is that Jesus mount His stallion and ride to bring us home soon. Come Lord Jesus, come.

 

[filosofer]

That elder’s response is one that causes me to cringe when I hear it (along with other such “funeral” responses). God knows the length of our days (Psalm 139), but knowing and actively causing that are two different things.

My heart goes out to his family and friends who have so many unanswered questions and grief. May God grant them mercy and consolation in the midst of their suffering.

 

[porterross]

What an odd (and incorrect, IMO) thing for the elder to say. I know LCMS pastors who would have refused to conduct the funeral because it was a suicide. Of course that would be tough on the family in such cases who are the ones needing to be comforted, so that would be a tough thing to accept and I can only imagine the additional pain it would cause.

God's mercy is all we can look to in such instances, because we certainly don't have all the answers. I just hate the idea that someone who knows they can call on the Lord forgets that His love can overcome anything.

 

[Flipper]

I can't understand a pastor not conducting the funeral. Funerals aren't just for the deceased, but for the people who attend. The people at the funeral needs to hear of God's saving grace as much as anyone else - maybe even more so.

IMO - What everyone else said (except for the pastor in the OP), and that when one is judged, every bit of that person and their life is taken into consideration, and whatever judgment God makes will be fair.

 

[BigNorsk]

I too have trouble with that.

I was talking to one of our church plants and he started a few years ago now to do a lot of funerals. The funeral director would call and say there was someone who had died that really didn't have a church but the family would really like to have a funeral, and he'd do it.

He says you wouldn't think of it being such a missionary thing, but he said how more than a few of the people who came to the church there over the years now when asked why said things like, "You did my uncle's funeral a couple of years ago. I really appreciated it at the time and it got me to thinking..."

 

[twin.spin]

I can't understand a pastor not conducting the funeral. Funerals aren't just for the deceased, but for the people who attend. The people at the funeral needs to hear of God's saving grace as much as anyone else - maybe even more so.

IMO - What everyone else said (except for the pastor in the OP), and that when one is judged, every bit of that person and their life is taken into consideration, and whatever judgment God makes will be fair.

If a pastor is going to hold to the truth of God's word, how could he do a Christian funeral for a non-christian? Jesus said "Let the dead bury their own dead," Matthew 8:22

Just what do you think he meant by that..other than let spiritualy dead people bury their own?

 

[DaRev]

He says you wouldn't think of it being such a missionary thing, but he said how more than a few of the people who came to the church there over the years now when asked why said things like, "You did my uncle's funeral a couple of years ago. I really appreciated it at the time and it got me to thinking..."

One thing that has been suggested to me is that after a funeral like that is to invite the family members to church and have a special petition in the Prayers of the Church for the family. I haven't yet had the opportunity to do that, but I may the next time I'm asked to do a funeral for a non-member.

If a pastor is going to hold to the truth of God's word, how could he do a Christian funeral for a non-christian? Jesus said "Let the dead bury their own dead," Matthew 8:22

Just what do you think he meant by that..other than let spiritualy dead people bury their own?

Remember, we are all spiritually dead until we are born of the Spirit.

I don't believe that a non-Christian would request a Christian funeral. But, again, the funeral is for the living and not the deceased. Yet it does pose a rather difficult situation when there can be no assurance of the Gospel for one who has rejected it. I've never been in that situation, but I would certainly uphold the truth of God's word in such a situation.

 

[twin.spin]

One thing that has been suggested to me is that after a funeral like that is to invite the family members to church and have a special petition in the Prayers of the Church for the family. I haven't yet had the opportunity to do that, but I may the next time I'm asked to do a funeral for a non-member.



Remember, we are all spiritually dead until we are born of the Spirit.

I don't believe that a non-Christian would request a Christian funeral. But, again, the funeral is for the living and not the deceased. Yet it does pose a rather difficult situation when there can be no assurance of the Gospel for one who has rejected it. I've never been in that situation, but I would certainly uphold the truth of God's word in such a situation.

Being that my brother -in-law has been a pastor for over 45 years and have been friends of some pastors...the hard feelings\mis-understandings occure when person "A" (who isn't a professing christian) dies. Person "A" just so happens comes from family "A" that was one of the original members that started the church. Usually, it's the occasional attendee who gets the most upset.

 

[Flipper]

If a pastor is going to hold to the truth of God's word, how could he do a Christian funeral for a non-christian? Jesus said "Let the dead bury their own dead," Matthew 8:22

Just what do you think he meant by that..other than let spiritual dead people bury their own?

What about the people attending the funeral. The deceased is already dead - the funeral isn't all about them, is it?

So it isn't a pastor's job to preach the Word to unbelievers, or the spiritually seeking?

 

[QuiltAngel]

I don't see anywhere in the OP where it states that the person the service was for was a non-Christian. While we like to think that one who commits suicide is not a believer, many times those who do such an act are doing it during a time of severe depression or other such things. This is why suicide is a hard thing to deal with in the church. The person may have been a believer going through such a hard time. We have to commit this person's soul to God and let Him be the one who decides the person's eternity. We here do not know this.

My husband, a Pastor has done a service for a member's family member who was not a member and the deceased's faith was in question. People will bring family members who live far away home for burial and this was such a case. He did the service at the funeral home and held the service for those family members who needed God's love and compassion at this time.

 

[twin.spin]

What about the people attending the funeral. The deceased is already dead - the funeral isn't all about them, is it?

So it isn't a pastor's job to preach the Word to unbelievers, or the spiritually seeking?

• What about the people attending the funeral. The deceased is already dead - the funeral isn't all about them, is it?
  • Not to be sarcastic, but nobody is there because of any other reason other than somebody is deceased.
• So it isn't a pastor's job to preach the Word to unbelievers, or the spiritually seeking?
  • Yes....every Sunday service. A Christian funeral only purpose is to convey the guarantee of those who died a believer will one day rise and live eternally because of faith....not because of being a "good person".

 

[DaRev]

• What about the people attending the funeral. The deceased is already dead - the funeral isn't all about them, is it?
  • Not to be sarcastic, but nobody is there because of any other reason other than somebody is deceased.

Precisely why the Gospel should be preached in that situation. Perhaps the deceased was weak in the faith, but the service is for the benefit of the living in attendance. The deceased certainly can't benefit from it.

• So it isn't a pastor's job to preach the Word to unbelievers, or the spiritually seeking?
  • Yes....every Sunday service. A Christian funeral only purpose is to convey the guarantee of those who died a believer will one day rise and live eternally because of faith....not because of being a "good person".

But there are many people who don't (or won't) attend a church service on Sunday, but do attend funerals, so you take that opportunity to preach the Gospel message to them there. As St. Paul writes, "Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."

 

[twin.spin]

Precisely why the Gospel should be preached in that situation. Perhaps the deceased was weak in the faith, but the service is for the benefit of the living in attendance. The deceased certainly can't benefit from it.




But there are many people who don't (or won't) attend a church service on Sunday, but do attend funerals, so you take that opportunity to preach the Gospel message to them there. As St. Paul writes, "Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."

I understand the thought of the "golden opportunity" mentality, put knowing when to use the law vs. gospel is also a factor. In the case of a non-Christian being buried by a Christian pastor, the only truthful message that should come through would be one of the law. The message should be that this deceased person now stands in front of a God who's wrath is upon him\her..... which is the fate of any unbeliever. No doubt, that wouldn't be a welcomed message at that time (and probably is why most do not attend chuirch in the first place)

 

[QuiltAngel]

I am still trying to figure out where the OP posted that the person in the situation is an unbeliever?

The Gospel is not for the deceased, but for the mourners. I am sure by the time the Pastor gives the memorial service, that he has had lots of contact with the family. In the case of suicide, it is a balance.

Most unbelievers are not going to ask a Lutheran Pastor to conduct their service. In 25 years of ministry, my husband has had only one that he was asked to do by family members.

Most families of one who does not believe is going to hold their own thing for the service. They are going to hold something where the deceased is the focus, not Christ.

 

[DaRev]

I understand the thought of the "golden opportunity" mentality, put knowing when to use the law vs. gospel is also a factor. In the case of a non-Christian being buried by a Christian pastor, the only truthful message that should come through would be one of the law. The message should be that this deceased person now stands in front of a God who's wrath is upon him\her..... which is the fate of any unbeliever. No doubt, that wouldn't be a welcomed message at that time (and probably is why most do not attend chuirch in the first place)

The message is that the Law condemns but the Gospel saves. If the deceased was a non-believer, that will be made apparent to all in attendance through the message. But we certainly would not think of not presenting the Gospel for the sake of those in attendance. We certainly don't abandon them. They are the ones for which the funeral service is done. If all we do is pound them over the head with Law, what benefit will that do for those who will hear? The deceased has already met his or her fate, whatever God wills that to be. It is the living to whom we preach Law and Gospel. And we most certainly do not neglect the Gospel in that situation.

 

[DaRev]

I am sure by the time the Pastor gives the memorial service, that he has had lots of contact with the family.

This is true, and in the case where the deceased is a non-believer, the essence of the message will have been made known to them prior to the service. They could always change their minds.