question about suicide.

[fadedglory]

is there anywhere in scriptures that say that if someone who is saved commits suicide, salvation will be taken away?

 

[Nazaroo]

Although it is common (standard) Christian dogma(?) that suicide is a serious sin, possibly even causing or indicating loss of salvation, the Scriptural teaching is not so simple.

On the one hand, any selfish act, especially a 'crime' done for selfish reasons would be considered a sin in most interpretations.

On the other hand, Jesus Himself is the supreme example of self-sacrifice on behalf of others, possibly even criminals and the unworthy.

It would then be possible along those lines to admit that some risky acts, even acts resulting in one's own death, are not sins at all, but approved by God.

Under this category of actions would fall the 'heroic' acts of firefighters and peace officers who sometimes die in action, saving lives.

This idea is often extended to soldiers in battle by certain Christian groups and individuals, but at this point the ground becomes very dicey. Although in His public ministry, John the Baptist may have told soldiers merely to "be satisfied with your pay", it is unlikely that God ever intended that men should coexist through the threat and applied force of standing armies.

On the one hand, Jesus taught that,

"No greater love has anyone than this,
that they lay their life down for their friends" (John 15:13)

Yet in this case, Jesus was referring to the ultimate act of bravery, not fighting and killing with a possible chance of survival, but rather complete personal surrender in exchange for the lives of others.

In Jesus' case we are clearly cautioned that the only way to salvation is Jesus' way, and that means non-violent, peaceful protests, even if it results in personal injury or death.

If Jesus' own life is to serve as any meaningful example, then non-violent surrender to authorities, even when they are wrong and satanically inspired is what is expected by God.

So on the one hand, "suicide" in the cause of spreading the Gospel is not only approved, but often expected of Christian leaders,

while on the other hand, armed resistance to evil is simply not a Christian option.

One also must carefully separate the popular notions of "bravery" and "cowardice" from the Christian notions of loyalty and salvation.

All the apostles were in fact cowards, and Jesus and God the Father have allowed for such faults through grace and redemptive opportunities (as in Peter's later martyrdom etc.).

But Judas committed an act of betrayal, not through mere cowardice or weakness, but by a bold and daring act of selfishness, which required planning and malice aforethought.

Its the difference between Judas and the other apostles where God seems to draw the line, not a line between "bravery" and "cowardice" per se.

In fact, there is a strong argument to the effect that many acts of so-called "Bravery" are actually acts of ignorance and arrogance.

So called tough-guy heroes don't really believe they will fail performing their "heroic" acts, and so the claim of "bravery" is misplaced.

Again, many young people and tough guys simply don't believe anything can happen TO THEM, as though they were somehow invincible. Yet they fall to the happenstance of life just as other men and women, breaking legs, being crippled and blinded, or dying.

In such cases, foolish and unrealistic arrogance might be a better label than 'bravery', especially since God apparently doesn't offer fools any supernatural protection from harm.

I bring all this out to underline a few key points.

(1) Its not "suicide" itself that is a sin, but rather any action based upon selfishness alone.

(2) Many heroic acts are in fact "suicides", but involve self-sacrifice on behalf of the helpless, innocent, and even the undeserving. This is an extremely rare gift however, and the opportunity doesn't normally arise in a peaceful society.

(3) Many so-called "heroic acts" are not heroic at all, but are motivated by illusions of self-importance or arrogance, or even simple stupidity and lack of a realistic awareness of danger.

(4) God doesn't disapprove of "cowardice" in itself. Rather He expects people to be weak, especially the weak, the young, the old, the sick.

(5) Although God may indeed value "bravery", the conditions under which He would approve of such acts are very strict, and conditions must conform to those of Jesus' own life and example!

(6) There must be a difference between prematurely ending a life for a poor and insufficient reason, or an exaggerated one, as opposed to ending a life at an appropriate season.

Let me illustrate (6) with a few clear examples.

(a) It is doubtful God would advise a child to commit suicide over a broken toy.

(b) It is unlikely that a teenager having a romantic "crush" on someone who turns out to be a jerk and either ignores or dumps them would have just cause to kill themselves, when God still has a long and fulfilling life planned for them.

(c) It is unlikely that God would approve of a suicide so that a middle-aged adult could avoid personal responsibility for fraudulent business or illicit adulterous affairs.

(d) It is unlikely that God would approve of someone who has a major handicap committing suicide merely because their life was limited or inconvenienced, or even humiliating.


All of these examples seem to be insufficient to justify someone making a personal decision to kill themselves, even though they all involve great emotional stress and difficulties.

On the other hand, perhaps someone at the end of a long and productive life could justify ending their own life and removing an unecessary and difficult burden upon others. God does not intend us to live forever in this life, but be able to 'die' in order to have life.

I hope these thoughts are helpful to you.

Peace
Nazaroo

 

[wayseer]

Yes - they are helpful. You make good points.

 

[archaeologist2]

the simple answer:

basically suicide is violating the commandment 'thou shalt not kill' and you would die without receiving forgiveness for that sin. BUT if you had done some other sin and died of a heart attack or traffic accident without seeking and receiving forgiveness would you think you would lose your salvation ? of course not, you would think that God's grace would cover your forgetfulness.

this does not mean you have permission to commit suicide; at no time does anyone have permission to sin.

what nazroo is talking about is completely off the topic and is a different case. when one sacrifices themselves for others, that is NOT committing suicide but making a sacrifice. a very big difference.

 

[Nazaroo]

the simple answer:

basically suicide is violating the commandment 'thou shalt not kill' and you would die without receiving forgiveness for that sin.

BUT if you had done some other sin and died of a heart attack or traffic accident without seeking and receiving forgiveness would you think you would lose your salvation ? of course not, you would think that God's grace would cover your forgetfulness.

First of all, I'd like to thank archaeologist2 for his courage in facing and responding to a difficult issue.

But I have to take issue with the logic as presented here in this first part of his/her response.

Let's clarify the language at the start: The commandment has been translated "Thou shalt not kill" in the past (see almost any ancient English translation), however, the larger context (the Old Testament, and Israel's national practices) makes it clear that this translation is too general a wording to transmit the intent.

(1) The Commandment (Exodus 20:13) does not include animals for instance, but is intended to apply to people only, or else the sacrificial laws and even rules for Israelite diet could not be carried out.

(2) It is still wrong also to wantonly or maliciously (or even needlessly) kill animals. The rules for exceptions to the Sabbath (saving an ox from a pit for instance) make plain that part of good stewardship involves care and compassion even for animals.

(3) Thus on other grounds (other laws and instructions) we could EXTEND this commandment to include animals, although we could not rightly extend also the PUNISHMENT (death penalty) for such lesser crimes. It must be understood that the death penalty under Mosaic Law only applies to killing humans: Killing an animal requires only replacement or a court-imposed fine.

(4) This commandment is not intended to prevent lawful authorities from carrying out punishments under the Law of Moses, including the death penalty. Again, therefore it cannot apply to ALL cases of killing, but rather UNAUTHORIZED killing. The Law specifically states there is NO penalty (and hence no sin) in killing someone in self-defence who has invaded your home at night, intending themselves to kill you. (see Exodus 22:2 for instance).

(5) This is why many translations rightly substitute the word "MURDER" for "KILL". This narrows the language sufficiently to cover the intention of God's Commandment.

Thus from the starting gate we learn that not all killing is forbidden under the Law, but only a certain subset, namely unauthorized and wrongly motivated killings.

This limitation should also apply to suicides. Not all self-killings may be a case of "murder". Some may be in fact accidental, and in other cases could be negligence causing death (of self). These are hardly cases equivalent to "murder".

A person could also be deceived through false information, and act in error, even though they intended to kill themselves. It is an established and universal principle of law that INTENT and KNOWLEDGE are critically important in determining guilt in any case where a crime or "sin" is suspected.

-------------------------------------------------

Having got that out of the way, here is what I find wrong in your above reasoning. You suggest that killing yourself (by the nature of the case) leaves out any opportunity to repent, and hence (I suppose) you could not receive forgiveness.

But this is a false notion on two counts:

(1) Often people commit an irreversable act resulting in their death, but do not instantly die, and so have plenty of time to regret and "repent" of their choice. Taking poison for instance, a person might change their mind, but unfortunately cannot undo the result. Or even jumping off a cliff or shooting themselves might result in a prolonged "death" in which second thoughts are sure to occur.

(2) From a technical point of view, those who class suicide as a kind of "murder" do it by counting the killing of self as "equal to" the killing of someone else. But this is the absolute MOST that can be claimed. One cannot claim that killing yourself is WORSE than killing someone else, since then,
(a) you would make yourself more important than others, which is pure arrogance, especially for a sinner, and
(b) people clearly have more authority over themselves than over others when it comes to personal responsibility for sin. That is why its wrong to kill others in the first place. We don't have the authority and power to kill other people.

(3) But it is well-known that murderers (those who kill OTHERS) can indeed repent, if God so grants time and opportunity, even if God has to force it on them (as in the case of Paul, who formerly murdered Christians). Even the robber on the cross beside Jesus was able to repent, although not escaping the penalty of the Law.

(4) From this we conclude that even murderers can sometimes find repentance and salvation. If that is so, and suicide is no worse than murder (of others), then a loving and reasonable God would also provide as much opportunity for repentance to suicides as He does for murderers.

(5) God is not irrational or unreasonable, and so would not penalize a murderer for simply being "efficient". Killing someone slowly has to be at least as sinful as killing someone quickly, and so we must also conclude that a quick and successful (instant) suicide cannot be worse than a long protracted one. A loving and reasonable God would have to provide as much grace in one case as in the other.

(6) Finally, people commit suicide for quite different reasons on the whole than the reasons people commit murder. (i.e., dispair, hopelessness, guilt, shame, lack of a future, unbearable pain or suffering etc. on the one hand for suicide, while selfishness, wickedness, meanness, greed, lust, anger, fear, etc. would be the main reasons for murder.) A loving and just God who judges the HEART and righteously, must make such distinctions in judging a suicide versus a true murder.

this does not mean you have permission to commit suicide; at no time does anyone have permission to sin.

Agreed. But it has to be actually determined that the killing was in fact a "murder", and therefore also a sin. We don't hold police, executioners, homeowners or even soldiers normally guilty of "murder" when they kill in various circumstances deemed mandatory (although God might find them guilty).

A case for suicide could be argued equally strongly, or even euthanasia in cases of unbearable pain, extreme age, hopeless medical conditions, or lack of any possibl quality of life.

what nazroo is talking about is completely off the topic and is a different case. when one sacrifices themselves for others, that is NOT committing suicide but making a sacrifice. a very big difference.

I appreciate your sentiment here, but you are playing fast and loose with ordinary language in order to achieve a distinction that is NOT built into the definitions of these words themselves, or their usage, but is rather a philosophical position.

In most dictionaries, and in common usage, heroic acts are often referred to as "suicidal" (and their outcome is often death).

Thus unfortunately, Jesus selfless act, in surrendering Himself to free His apostles at his arrest was certainly a SUICIDE.

On your second attempt to change the meaning of a word, namely "SACRIFICE" you are also wrong.

The definition of sacrifice has nothing to do with suicides performed selflessly or for the benefit of others.

Both in the Old and New testaments, "sacrifice" is a substitutionary death, but the knowledge, intent, will, and cooperation of the victim is irrelevant.

What Jesus did was both a suicide, and a "special" kind of sacrifice, in that He sacrificed Himself, and in that the victim (Jesus) in this case had knowledge of the substitution, and was a willing participant.

In sacrificing HIMSELF, Jesus committed suicide. In doing it willingly, Jesus performed a special selfless act of mercy, which is again completely outside the definition of ordinary Biblical "sacrifice" as a word.

Peace,
Nazaroo

 

[Nazaroo]

If we get back to the original poster's question, it really comes down to this:

Is suicide a sin? Is it always a sin? Is it a grave and mortal sin?

Let us address this directly and logically:

In our selfish, hedonistic "me" generation world, the focus is always on self.

But the real issue in a suicide is not usually or only about "self".

"self" may be the least important part of the question.


The fact is, and the question every person contemplating suicide must ask, is this:

Is my action going to hurt others?

Several cases come immediately to mind:

(1) Are children going to be left parentless or abandoned?

(2) Are relatives and friends going to be devastated or unduly burdened with grief?

(3) Are ethical and moral responsibilities to others being neglected or abandoned?

Obviously, one of the so-called "certain" things in life is DEATH.

Thus a suicide does not introduce anything "new" into the equation in that sense. The potential suicide person will certainly die anyway sooner or later, as almost everyone born eventually dies.

So, its not the death itself that's significant, its the life one leads up to their death, and the opportunity for good that could be either lost or cut short.

If anything were to make suicide a sin, (even a selfless sacrifice for others,), it would be whether the balance between good accomplished and harm done is tilted one way or the other.

Some might convincingly argue that we don't know enough to judge those potential alternatives, and therefore we don't have the right to act violently even upon ourselves.

But whether or not those arguments are convincing to someone contemplating suicide, this final argument should be:

God cares about others, and expects us to care also.

If you are contemplating suicide WITHOUT considering the effect of your actions upon others, you are acting in a totally selfish manner.

Such a suicide cannot be convincingly claimed to be a 'sinless' one. The gravity of the sin, only God can properly weigh.

If you are not fully informed of the whole truth surrounding a possible suicide situation, you are not likely to be in a position to rightly commit an act of self-sacrifice and justify your actions, even if your intent is selfless and "pure".

If you are not utterly convinced that suicide is the best course of action in the given situation, your own heart and mind, and possibly the Spirit of God is also warning you that your ground is shakey at best.

I would not attempt to discourage any courageous person to commit an act of self-sacrifice, if it is found to be strictly within the boundaries of Jesus' meaning and example of self-sacrifice.

But I would be extremely cautious in trying to equate any typical 'suicide' situation with the fully considered and planned self-sacrifice of Christ, who as a mature and happy and fully realised adult, made the ultimate personal sacrifice for the clear and demonstrable benefit of others.

Does your self-sacrifice situation stand up to the example of Jesus the Christ?

If it doesn't, I'd strongly warn you to hold back any plans of 'self-sacrifice'.

Jesus did NOT give license for random and thoughtless or selfish acts of suicide.

Jesus acted in a steadfast and careful way, always acting to help others with their problems and needs, and in the end, this inevitably resulted in His death, because of the sin and evil of others, not any sin of His own.

It may be said that even Jesus avoided His own death till the last possible moment, having achieved all that He could under the circumstances, and fulfilling all necessary things, before surrendering his life.

peace,
Nazaroo

 

[archaeologist2]

again nazroo brings a sledge hammer when a framing one will do. he is way off topic and misses the point of the questions being asked and uses this opportunity to show off.

show off what, i do not know. but this is a spiritual question not an opportunity to write a thesis of gobblygook.

the plain and simple answer is do not committ suicide and you will not have to worry about your salvation in that aspect. if you are asking about someone else then you need to remember what scripture says

'i will give mercy upon whom i will give mercy'

in other words people, it is up to God not theologians, not pontificators who like to hear themselves speak, not those with good intentions. if you want peace of mind, then you have to accept the fact that God is the one who makes those decisions.

we humans cannot say who loses their salvation and who doesn't, we do not have that authority. we do know in part who is going to heaven or hell because scriptures give us the key but as to losing one's salvation or if an act will take that away is shrouded because we should not be doing anything that would cause that doubt and God has not given us that information.

people suffer enough from charlatons who say if you do certain things you are going to hell...well the only thing that people do that guarantees such a punishment is rejecting Jesus as their savior. Again this is not permission to go sin but just giving you the reality.

people who pontificate forget about grace, mercy, God's love, compassion plus they cannot answer what happens to babies or children when they die because their models are very limited and babies/children dying are outside those models and they do not want to 'hurt' the parents.

the truth is, if they are christian when they commit suicide it is a possibility that they do not lose their salvation but i am not God and cannot give you an answer.

pseudo -intellectuals like nazroo are wrong and his last paragraph shows how wrong he is as he still equates sacrifice with suicide and that is just not right and borders on heresy.

he is saying that either Jesus sinned, {by committing 'suicide'} or that suicide is not sin by his equating sacrifice with that act. since Jesus did not sin {if He did then he could not die on the cross} and suicide is sin {you are violating a commandment} sacrifice is not the same as suicide no matter how sweetly nazroo puts it.

his comments are not from God and he greatly is off topic and the very simple answer to your question;

is there anywhere in scriptures that say that if someone who is saved commits suicide, salvation will be taken away?

is NO with a BIG BUT...you do not have permission to commit suicide and suicide is not okay. a believer is to avoid sin and temptation resisting the devil and he will flee from you. soif you or your friends are thinking of committing suicide--GO FIND A TRUE CHRISTIAN AND GET HELP.

 

[AdrocK48]

I havent seen anything in the bible that talks about suicide either way... though it does talk about Judas topping himself.
does that mean its ok to go throw yourself off a building? no
does that mean you will loose salvation because you didnt repent of that sin? no
if i remember correctly, there is only one 'unforgiveable sin'... to take God's name in vain.
if one argues that yuo cant be forgiven unless you are repentant of each and every sin you do, then what about those who have alsiemers disease? what about those that have short term memory loss? you are arguing that they cant be in a relationship with God because of a disease THEY COULDNT HELP.
and if you really want to keep going down that line... none of us can go to heaven because there is atleast 1 sin that we have all done in our own personal lives that we havent been repentant of, so we cant be truely forgiven completely can we? and therefore cant go to heaven cos of that one sin.
the way i see it... Jesus died once and for all, that if one choses to be in relation with him, they are forgiven totally, for past sin, present sin, and future sin.
does that give us the right to sin? heck no! but because we are sinners and cant help that on our own, we will continue to sin.
whether thats telling a lie or taking a life

 

[wayseer]

.... so if you or your friends are thinking of committing suicide--GO FIND A TRUE CHRISTIAN AND GET HELP.

Perhaps this subject is something of a psychological trigger for Arch2 otherwise, I am at a loss to understand his over the top response.

Telling someone who is thinking about suicide to 'go get help' not only indicates a level of ignorance but serves to absolve those who find it easy to adopt the marcho male image of psuedo-toughness.

Arch2 post demonstrate a severe lack of compassion and a willingness to dismiss such issue to the periphery by trying to make the discussion academic as if the OP does not exist. (Besides, if you are trying to develop some academic argument for your marcho style stance your reasoning is seriously flawed. Jesus demonstrates compassion).

Nazaroo is talking to someone who is thinking about suicide. Perhaps the person is more important here than the academic debate.

 

[archaeologist2]

Perhaps this subject is something of a psychological trigger for Arch2 otherwise, I am at a loss to understand his over the top response.

it is obvious the above response is made by someone who doesn't take the time to find out why things are said they way they are but has decided to reside in the area of assumption and addresses that assumption instead of the facts.

Telling someone who is thinking about suicide to 'go get help' not only indicates a level of ignorance but serves to absolve those who find it easy to adopt the marcho male image of psuedo-toughness

this is one of thing comments which totally discredits the author. it is clear he is upset because his friend has been proven wrong sohe must resort to personal attacks to demean another human being.

Arch2 post demonstrate a severe lack of compassion and a willingness to dismiss such issue to the periphery by trying to make the discussion academic as if the OP does not exist. (Besides, if you are trying to develop some academic argument for your marcho style stance your reasoning is seriously flawed. Jesus demonstrates compassion).

thisis another comment which thoroughly discredits the author as he obviously is making a false accusation against me but applies to nazroo instead. one wonders if he is actually reading the same posts as everyone else.

Nazaroo is talking to someone who is thinking about suicide. Perhaps the person is more important here than the academic debate

the author obviously has blinders on as one does not respond to a simple question with a doctoral dissertation. the author is clearly out of touch because of his bias and cannot see what is really happening.

in reading nazroo's posts it is quite clear he is not addressing the question asked and composes something that is a complete waste of time. suicidal victims are not looking for intellectual discussions, they are looking for answers and if you need to impress others with your knowledge then you are not helping but adding to the problem.

it is quite proper to tell people to go get help because the internet is NOT the best place to find help for such problems. one needs to find true christians who will tell them the truth and who can take a personal, active interest till the problem is resolved.

nazroo did nothing for that person but bore him to death.

 

[archaeologist2]

i will stand by my posts and will not engage wayseer again as he is clearly off the mark as his friend nazroo is. i do not need to get into an argument especially when the other person resorts to isults and personal attacks.

when people are hurting and desparate, they do not want dissertations and intellectual discussion. they want answers and if you have to pontificate then you are not providing answers nor solving the problem.

suicide is sin, it is a violation of God's laws and an act of disobedience and christians need to flee from such options, seeking help from those who are wise and able to provide direction. there is no permission to sin at any time.

an internet forum IS NOT the place to go as there are TOO MANY people who will interfere and add confusion to the issue. God is not the author of confusion and you have enough problems without adding the figuring out who is right or wrong.

if you are contemplating suicide, go to your pastor, trusted elder, or another church etc., to seek help. one needs to take care of the issue privately and in an atmosphere that is conducive to healing. a busy chat room is not such a place.

one should not let their friend's acts of suicide or attempts at such to influence their decisions, because they would be wrong and you would be wrong for following in their footsteps. suicide is never the answer for if you succeed, you do not get to change your mind.

 

[Standing Up]

is there anywhere in scriptures that say that if someone who is saved commits suicide, salvation will be taken away?

1 Cor. 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

I'd worry more about the one who defiled the temple, rather than the temple. But think not upon those lines for if one is saved, there's children and loved ones and brothers and sisters.

Peace be unto you-

 

[wayseer]

when people are hurting and desparate, they do not want dissertations and intellectual discussion. they want answers ...

No - they want people to listen. Listening is difficult on the net and the way to demonstrate that one is willing to listen is to outline something which might reflect the problem from another angle - which is exactly what Nazaroo has attempted.

The only person wanting an intellectual discussion is Arch2.

 

[archaeologist2]

wayseer has been reported and ignored. i am not here to have myself falsely accused by someone who is just looking for a fight and trouble

 

[wayseer]

wayseer has been reported and ignored. i am not here to have myself falsely accused by someone who is just looking for a fight and trouble

Arch2 - I have not accused you, falsely or otherwise. I have, through this thread and by PM, suggested that you might be a little more sensitive to the issue raised by the OP. You are welcome to debate but this may not be the appropriate time nor place.

 

[Nazaroo]

I have a feeling that although Wayseer is taking the heat here, it was my posts which wrankled archaeologist2 the most.

Please accept my apology, and believe me when I say I did not intend to upset anyone.

This is of course a touchy and delicate subject and is bound to raise concern and emotions from all directions.

Those who post in this thread should be aware that the subject is a natural lightning rod, and make a special effort to keep their cool.

Its a controversial subject and so one must expect real divergence of opinion even among sincere Christians and concerned people everywhere.

What complicates it is that many people will have friends or family who may be victims of suicide, and so I would ask special prayer over this thread.

I will post again shortly, but it seems that some time should elapse for people to regain their composure and common sense.

Peace in the name of our Lord Jesus the Christ

Nazaroo

 

[Easyrider]

is there anywhere in scriptures that
say that if someone who is saved commits suicide,
salvation will be taken away?

Jeremiah 29:11-nlt . . .
I know the plans I have for you,” says the LORD.
“They are plans for Good and not for disaster,
to give you a Future and a Hope.

When you are Tempted by Thoughts of Hopelessness,
Remember that God created you and has a Plan for you.

Genesis 1:27-NLT . . .
God created people in His own Image;
God patterned them after Himself;
Male and Female HE created them.

1 Corinthians 6:20-NLT . . .
God bought you with a high price.
So you must honor God with your body.

Jesus paid the ultimate sacrifice for us that
we could have life. It would go against
everything Jesus taught us to take our own life.

Matthew 28:20-NLT . . .
Be sure of this:
“I am with you always,
even to the end of the age.”


Remember that you are Not Alone!!