Question about Predestination

[iLogos]

In order to understand how Predestination and Free Will can coexists, we need to understand what it means when we say God is outside of time...what it means when we say that Christ died for all sinners from Adam & Eve to the last person born on this earth all at the same moment 2000 years ago...

It is a time question and there is no way we can fully comprehend what that means. I mean, how can we even think a thought in the afterlife without having a beginning moment where the thought enters our mind or spirit or soul or presence or whatever?

God lives every moment at the same time(?). See even to say that requires a time measurement. This is one of those question that CAN NOT be answered this side of heaven.

I understand what your trying to say but wonder if it is accurate to say God is outside of time. That implies there is a place God is not. If God is infinite which I believe He is, then God would be in time and surpass time. You'll have to forgive me I am a stinker on details. Another detail, "God lives" is not really accurate, as lives implies creation, and a beginning, God is uncreated, therefore simply exists.

What I believe your trying to say is God transcends time, space, creation, and understanding. It would be impossible for us to relate to such a being and to try to explain the mechanics behind it would be impossible. And I would agree. What we can go by is what is provided, and what little we do have, it seems we can not agree on

Peace

 

[jpcedotal]

I understand what your trying to say but wonder if it is accurate to say God is outside of time. That implies there is a place God is not. If God is infinite which I believe He is, then God would be in time and surpass time. You'll have to forgive me I am a stinker on details. Another detail, "God lives" is not really accurate, as lives implies creation, and a beginning, God is uncreated, therefore simply exists.

What I believe your trying to say is God transcends time, space, creation, and understanding. It would be impossible for us to relate to such a being and to try to explain the mechanics behind it would be impossible. And I would agree. What we can go by is what is provided, and what little we do have, it seems we can not agree on

Peace

Yep, you got the jest of what I was saying.

To put God "in" time, to me, takes away from His sovereignty to a certain extent. To be "in" time, to me, is to be controlled by time as we are on earth. Things He does in our past are not part of His past, they are what HE IS, the great I AM.... is the best way I know how to explain it.

Also, I would say there is a place where God is not, it is called Hell. In fact, that is what makes Hell...Hell, being where God is not IS Hell.

Sorry not trying to derail the thread just wanted to make sure that you know exactly where I am coming from because you are right, I didn't make it clear enough.

Peace back at ya

 

[drjean]

Also, I would say there is a place where God is not, it is called Hell. In fact, that is what makes Hell...Hell, being where God is not IS Hell.

<< Psalm 139 >>
New American Standard Bible7Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence? 8If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

 

[drjean]

I can appreciate every one's view and opinion here. I like to believe in death bed conversions too. I honestly do not know. Only God knows. I don't think we can use death bed conversions to prove any thing one way or another. Certainly have faith God will be Just.

The real indicator will be scripture, and that is what we should bank on, not so much personal experiences or feelings. Not that they don't count, they certainly do when they are in harmony with the Word of God, but when they are at odds with the word of God then that is what it is! In the case when we apparently do not have clear scripture reference to say one way or another, then that is the way it is.

The topic of predestination is often taken out of context at the wrong times and can certainly mean different things. But the scriptures are very clear we are called out by God. God is not the one who is lost and we need to find him. We are the ones who are lost and it is He who calls us out.

What about King Hezekiah? He had a death bed conversion, and was also given another 11 years to live!

2 Kings 20:1 In those days Hezekiah became mortally ill. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came to him and said to him, "Thus says the LORD, 'Set your house in order, for you shall die and not live.'"

 

[drjean]

DRJEAN, et al, here's a question that I asked myself for years before knowing anything about the Reformed faith.

Why me? Why not my neighbor too? Why did I "choose" to come to faith in Christ when so many do not? Was I made in some special way by God? Why was I able to see what so many others can not? And if so, where's the "fairness" (or perhaps better, the "justice") for the reprobate in that?

Many of my Arminian friends simply say it comes down to nothing more than "choice". What I want vs what they want. What! Chose Hell over Heaven?? Who in their right mind would do that?

Maybe that's it. Everyone else is just nuts! But then we come back to how I was made vs how they were made, don't we?

One last thing, do you believe you were saved by God's grace because He chose to be merciful to you, or was God's grace "extended" to you because He peeked down through the ages and saw the choice you would make? And if the latter is the case, would He not then be giving you something you deserved to have?

Thoughts?

--David

"When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord;
and as many as had been appointed to eternal life, believed"
Acts 13:48​

My Bible says that everyone may come to the throne of God...and receive God's mercy and salvation. See the verses below to remind...

What we believe cannot go against Scripture, even if it's a concept that strains our human minds. For me, it's not difficult to think that not everything alive here on earth --that may have the form of human--is human and thus being so, is not entitled to receive the grace of God... the race of mixed with the fallen angels in the past comes to mind. Yes? So then everyone else becomes "appointed" as opposed to condemned.... yet all fully human people are offered salvation. Yes, it's God's offering and His decision.

Sometimes we make assumptions without considering the whole sphere of options...and when we try to discern what God is thinking, well ... you agree I think we shouldn't limit God (especially just because we haven't thought of other things).

"For God so loved THE WORLD ....that WHOSOEVER believeth..."

2 Peter 3: 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

 

[jpcedotal]

<< Psalm 139 >>
New American Standard Bible7Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence? 8If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

wow good point....

Question: Is Sheol to Hell the same as Abraham's Bosom to Heaven? I mean, are these two groups EXACTLY the same, somewhat the same, or two different things?

 

[St_Worm2]

Something else to consider concerning "deathbed" conversions, along with the thief on the cross, there is also the parable of the "Laborers in the Vineyard".

(DRJEAN, I've gotta go, but will get back to your reply above a little later).

From Matthew 20:

1"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.
2 "When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 "And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place;
4 and to those he said, &#8216;You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.&#8217; And so they went.
5 "Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did the same thing.
6 "And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, &#8216;Why have you been standing here idle all day long?&#8217;
7 "They said to him, &#8216;Because no one hired us.&#8217; He said to them, &#8216;You go into the vineyard too.&#8217;
8 "When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, &#8216;Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.&#8217;
9 "When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius.
10 "When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius.
11 "When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner,
12 saying, &#8216;These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.&#8217;
13 "But he answered and said to one of them, &#8216;Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius?
14 &#8216;Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.
15 &#8216;Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?&#8217;
16 "So the last shall be first, and the first last." Matthew 20:1-16​

 

[drjean]

wow good point....

Question: Is Sheol to Hell the same as Abraham's Bosom to Heaven? I mean, are these two groups EXACTLY the same, somewhat the same, or two different things?

Abraham's bosom is in sheol... as a separate place for the believing Jews to wait, but it is considered to be in "hell".

 

[St_Worm2]

My Bible says that everyone may come to the throne of God...and receive God's mercy and salvation.

Hey, how bout that, mine does too ..

What we believe cannot go against Scripture, even if it's a concept that strains our human minds.

You mean like the concept of Election and Predestination? ..

For me, it's not difficult to think that not everything alive here on earth --that may have the form of human--is human and thus being so, is not entitled to receive the grace of God... the race of mixed with the fallen angels in the past comes to mind. Yes? So then everyone else becomes "appointed" as opposed to condemned.... yet all fully human people are offered salvation. Yes, it's God's offering and His decision.

That may be a little more "strain" than my mind is willing to endure. It sounds a little like the Mormon Church and their former stance regarding African Americans (or sadly, like some in our own southern states, especially during the time of slavery).

Putting all that aside however, this cannot be anything other than pure conjecture on your part, can it? The Bible, particularly the NT, speaks against the need for such things as racial purity where salvation is concerned. If that mattered, the Messianic line would not be populated with women such as Ruth or Rahab, the gentiles would have never been "grafted in" to the natural branches, and all in Christ would not be one, right? (Galatians 3:28-29)

Sometimes we make assumptions without considering the whole sphere of options...and when we try to discern what God is thinking, well ... you agree I think we shouldn't limit God (especially just because we haven't thought of other things).

The same can be said for both sides of this coin, yes? As for your Scripture references:

"For God so loved THE WORLD ....that WHOSOEVER believeth..."

I don't believe either "side" has a problem with saying that "whosoever believes" will be saved. You continue:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

The question is, who is the "you", the "any", and the "all" in this verse referring to? And for whom is He patiently waiting? Since this entire passage concerns God's destruction of the wicked, clearly Peter is not referring to "you", "any" and/or "all" in the broad, general sense. Rather, it is God's chosen people who are in focus here, the ones He is patiently waiting for to turn to Him and be saved.

--David

 

[drjean]

Election and predestination are not mutually exclusive.


There are Scriptures that attest to those who were not fully human (as example, one reason for the great flood (Noah's)).

Yes, whatever is true for you is true for me when referring to God's Word. He is Truth. (New Age thinking is what causes people to not believe in Absolute Truth.)

God says WHOSOEVER will may come...
and the other verse is not referring to race in any way but the Human Race. God is not willing that any perish...and waits for all to come.... Now in my Bible those words used there mean ANY and ALL without respect of persons... like James tells us.

Be well.

 

[St_Worm2]

Election and predestination are not mutually exclusive.

I didn't mean to insinuate that they are. Predestination is, in fact, a part of Divine Election. You continue:

There are Scriptures that attest to those who were not fully human (as example, one reason for the great flood (Noah's)).

I'm not following? Noah's flood destroyed the entire human and animal population from the face of the earth, excecpt for those who floated atop the flood waters in the Ark. The Flood was God's judgment of the wicked, not non or 1/2-humans.

Where does the Bible describe these 'creatures' you are talking about? You continue:

Yes, whatever is true for you is true for me when referring to God's Word. He is Truth. (New Age thinking is what causes people to not believe in Absolute Truth.)

I always thought it was because of the way we were born and live, our sin nature, and the fact that until Christ reconciles us to His Father, God is our mortal enemy (Romans 5:10)

"You were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest" Ephesians 2:1-3​

God says WHOSOEVER will may come...and the other verse is not referring to race in any way but the Human Race. God is not willing that any perish...and waits for all to come.... Now in my Bible those words used there mean ANY and ALL without respect of persons... like James tells us.

The famous and popular atheist, Madalyn Murray O'Hair, used to say that Bible says, "There is no God". And you know what, she's right, the Bible does say that. My Bible says it, and your Bible says it. The problem is, that's not what it means! If you take a verse, a passage, or even just a word out of context, you can give a new meaning to it that the Author never intended ..

 

[Harry3142]

When many people think of predestination, they define it as God's having decided the fate of each individual before that person was born. Some have been chosen to go to heaven, while others have been chosen to be condemned to hell. But in both cases their apparent salvation or their condemnation was not due to their acceptance or rejection of God's mercy. Instead, it was based on how 'holy' they appeared.

When predestination was applied to individuals, it always was connected to works. The person preselected for entrance into heaven would be pious, religious, and even legalistic. He would be the one seen to be seperate from others due to his holiness. Interestingly, these works did not include the showing of compassion for others that was taught by Christ himself in Matthew 25:31-46, and reaffirmed by James in his epistle. The poor and those in need were seen as under God's punishment, and so to aid them would be to negate God's wrath. They were to be condemned as unrepentant sinners, rather than any attempt made to alleviate their suffering. Instead, the works consisted primarily of ritualism, legalism, and judgementalism.

But according to Scripture our works are as filthy rags when compared to the righteousness which God requires of us. There's no such thing as 'good enough' or 'the good things we've done outweighing the bad'. With God there is perfection, or there is condemnation; there is no middle ground between the two extremes. This means that the Calvinist who thought that he could buy his own ticket to heaven through his own piety and other-worldliness was in exactly the same position with God as the unrepentant sinner who still revelled in his debauchery.

It is not our righteousness that will save us; that's a lost cause, and we all know it. Instead, it's our attitude toward what God himself has already done to close the chasm between our shortcomings and his requirements that will decide our fate. The most pious person has no more chance of salvation if left to his own devices than the worst criminal. It is only when we see our righteousness as unfit for presenting before God, and replace it with God's own righteousness freely offered to those of us who will humble ourselves by admitting that we need it, that salvation is assured (Romans 3:19 to 5:10).

 

[drjean]

This means that the Calvinist who thought that he could buy his own ticket to heaven through his own piety and other-worldliness was in exactly the same position with God as the unrepentant sinner who still revelled in his debauchery.

I think you may have confused Calvinists with Pharisees?

 

[drjean]

Originally Posted by drjean

There are Scriptures that attest to those who were not fully human (as example, one reason for the great flood (Noah's)).
​

I'm not following? Noah's flood destroyed the entire human and animal population from the face of the earth, excecpt for those who floated atop the flood waters in the Ark. The Flood was God's judgment of the wicked, not non or 1/2-humans.

Where does the Bible describe these 'creatures' you are talking about?

Genesis 6:

1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Why did God send the judgment of the Flood in the days of Noah? The strange events recorded in Genesis 6 were understood by the ancient rabbinical sources, as well as the Septuagint translators, as referring to fallen angels procreating weird hybrid offspring with human women-known as the Nephilim. This was far more than simply a historical issue, the unique events leading to the Flood are a prerequisite to understanding the prophetic implications of our Lord's predictions regarding His Second Coming. This is believed to have happened both before the Flood and after the flood. In Israel at the time of David, and before this when the Hebrews were scouting the land - there were tribes of these Nephilim - Goliath the giant of Gath is one example. Early Church fathers also understood this to be the case. It appears that these fallen angels were active all over the world. These bizarre giants living on the earth are also echoed in the legends and myths of nearly every ancient culture. The ancient Greeks, the Egyptians, the Hindus, the South Sea Islanders, the American Indians, and most all the others have these legends.
The Hebrew word Nephelim (plural of nephel) (Nephilim) literally means "rejects". The Hebrew plural for Nephites would be "Nephi'im". Nephilim are Giant offspring due to irruption by fallen angels

​

 

[St_Worm2]

When many people think of predestination, they define it as God's having decided the fate of each individual before that person was born. Some have been chosen to go to heaven, while others have been chosen to be condemned to hell. But in both cases their apparent salvation or their condemnation was not due to their acceptance or rejection of God's mercy. Instead, it was based on how 'holy' they appeared.

Hey Harry, I agree with DRJEAN, I think you may have us Calvinists, and what the Reformed faith teaches about Election, confused with what the Pharisees believed ... and many others like them, even today.

I'm sure you've heard of the famous little Reformed acrostic called TULIP. The "U" part stands for "UNconditional Election". Unconditional Election means that our election is decided by God according to His sovereign purpose. It means that it is specifically not based upon some future level of holiness or goodness that He sees in us, but that others fail to meet (since we also believe that there is nothing worthy or meritorious in any of us that would cause Him to choose us). Of course, that relates back to the "T" at the beginning of the acrostic, which stands for "Total Depravity".

Hope that helps!

--David

T = Total Depravity
U = Unconditional Election
L = Limited Atonement
I = Irresistible Grace
P = Perseverance of the Saints

 

[St_Worm2]

Genesis 6:

1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

OK, let's assume that these beings do exist in what could only be called "human" form today (since there is nothing that physically distinguishes them from us or we would know who they are, right?). Where does the Bible tell us that they too are not worthy of being saved? How can we know that?

Thanks!

--David

 

[Harry3142]

DaLeKo & DRJean-

I grew up in the Presbyterian Church, and as a teenager in the 1950's participated in adult get-togethers with our minister, in which predestination was discussed. What we learned then I am passing on to you now.

What I described as predestination was the original definition of the word when John Calvin first introduced his theology. And those who accepted it were going around acting pious in order to prove that they had been picked to go to heaven. But the problem brought up in the OP of this thread was an obstacle to that theology. If everyone was already predestined to either be among the blessed in heaven or among the condemned in hell, what was the purpose of missionaries?

So in the early part of the 20th century scholars got together to modify the theology of predestination. What you believe is not due to the definition of predestination as it was originally proposed circa 500 years ago. Instead, it's a result of the modification of that theology that occurred only about 100 years ago.

 

[St_Worm2]

DaLeKo & DRJean-

I grew up in the Presbyterian Church, and as a teenager in the 1950's participated in adult get-togethers with our minister, in which predestination was discussed. What we learned then I am passing on to you now.

What I described as predestination was the original definition of the word when John Calvin first introduced his theology. And those who accepted it were going around acting pious in order to prove that they had been picked to go to heaven. But the problem brought up in the OP of this thread was an obstacle to that theology. If everyone was already predestined to either be among the blessed in heaven or among the condemned in hell, what was the purpose of missionaries?

So in the early part of the 20th century scholars got together to modify the theology of predestination. What you believe is not due to the definition of predestination as it was originally proposed circa 500 years ago. Instead, it's a result of the modification of that theology that occurred only about 100 years ago.

We say, then, that Scripture clearly proves this much, that God by His eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was His pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was His pleasure to doom to destruction. We maintain that this counsel, as regards the elect, is founded on His free mercy, without any respect to human worth. John Calvin - "Institutes" Book 3 / Chpt 21 / Part 7
​

Thus taught Calvin in the 16th Century.

And here, from the Canons of the Synod of Dort, written in the early 17th Century we read:

Article 7:
​

Election
​

Election is God&#8217;s unchangeable purpose by which God did the following:

Before the foundation of the world, by sheer grace, according to the free good pleasure of God&#8217;s will, God chose in Christ to salvation a definite number of particular people out of the entire human race, which had fallen by its own fault from its original innocence into sin and ruin. Those chosen were neither better nor more deserving than the others, but lay with them in the common misery.


​

Article 10:

​

Election Based on God&#8217;s Good Pleasure

​

But the cause of this undeserved election is exclusively the good pleasure of God. This does not involve God&#8217;s choosing certain human qualities or actions from among all those possible as a condition of salvation, but rather involves God&#8217;s adopting certain particular persons from among the common mass of sinners as God&#8217;s own possession. As Scripture says, &#8220;Even before they had been born or had done anything good or bad (so that God&#8217;s purpose of election might continue, not by works but by his call)* she (Rebecca) was told, &#8216;The elder shall serve the younger.&#8217; As it is written, &#8216;I have loved Jacob, but I have hated Esau.&#8217;&#8221;
​

​

These are but a very few examples of what the Reformers believed, as well those who follow in their footsteps. I believe you when you tell us that you were taught the things you posited above, but whoever taught them to you was badly mistaken.

Yours and His,
David​

 

[drjean]

OK, let's assume that these beings do exist in what could only be called "human" form today (since there is nothing that physically distinguishes them from us or we would know who they are, right?). Where does the Bible tell us that they too are not worthy of being saved? How can we know that?

Thanks!

--David

What is proposed is merely a viable suggestion of how we cannot know all the circumstances behind why God "elected" some and not others... for indeed, there may be plenty of others for we know not the mind of God. I offer this as one understanding, since it is in Scripture (quite clearly to me)... Nephilim would not be fully human, having been a result of fallen angels and humans...perhaps this is what made them wicked and unavailable ? shall we say, for salvation? Can we say what such a being would be composed of or even if they had "souls" capable of salvation??? We can only infer from what Scriptures we have about them...but again, this only shows that we may be stuck in our thinking, and not realizing that our confining God's election to only people as we know them may not be part of the issue at all (that God chooses you and me and not our neighbors ) for indeed I trust and believe that when God said Whosoever will, may... He meant it...and since I am sure He meant human beings since I am one, then He meant all human beings. Follow?