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Question about Predestination

UTVols345

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Hi everyone! :)

My question is, if the Bible teaches that there are elect believers and people were predestined and all that good stuff, why is it necessary to go out into the world and preach the Gospel?

Thanks a bunch!

EDIT: I'm not even sure about predestination anyway. It kind of scares me to be honest.
 
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Harry3142

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Hi everyone! :)

My question is, if the Bible teaches that there are elect believers and people were predestined and all that good stuff, why is it necessary to go out into the world and preach the Gospel?

Thanks a bunch!

EDIT: I'm not even sure about predestination anyway. It kind of scares me to be honest.


Predestination was applied to the individual by John Calvin in order to put qualifications on what is called 'cheap grace' as described by Martin Luther. He read Romans 9 as saying that each person was already chosen for either eternal bliss in heaven with God, or eternal damnation in hell with Satan and his angels, before that person had even been born. Each individual's actions as he journayed through his lifetime would identify him as either one of the blessed or one of the cursed.

However, this reading of Romans 9 is in error. In fact, the passage in which Romans ( is located is one of the longest passages in Scripture, because it starts at Romans 9:1 and continues until Romans 11:32. And it is not intended to apply to individuals, but is instead St. Paul's exokanation as to why the Jews as a nation had not accepted Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the longed-for messiah.

At that time religion was not a matter of an individual's choosing which god or goddess he/she would worship. Instead, each city had its own patron god or goddess which the entire population of that city worshipped in unison. There were various events organized and celebrated to honor whatever god or goddess they had chosen to worship. And if another city conquered them, then their patron god or goddess would be cast aside in favor of whatever deity the city that conquered them worshipped. The only exception to this in that time was the city of Rome itself, which was a melting pot of different religions. But even there the god all citizens of Rome were to identify as the CEO of all the deities was Jupiter. Those who sacrificed to him, even if their religion was different from orthodox roman paganism, were left alone. Those who refused, died.

Yet Christian missionaries were among them preaching that Jesus Christ was to be worshipped rather than their own deities. They were trying to comprehend the reason why that should be done when their deity had an entire city honoring it, but Jesus' own people as a nation had rejected him. Judea wanted a messiah who carried a sword, fought against their enemies, and conquered those enemies, resulting in its complete independence from any other nation. Jesus was offering an eternity with God to a people who wanted political freedom here-and-now.

St. Paul explained that the rejection was necessary in order for the good news to get to the Gentiles without its being 'wrapped up' in the laws and commandments of orthodox Judaism. Gentiles were free to accept Christ from where they stood spiritually at that moment, rather than their needing to first convert to Judaism. They could simply accept Christ's passion, death and resurrection as cleansing them of their sins without first accepting the religion of another nation, namely, Judea.

But this did not mean that God has turned his back on the Jews. They were still his chosen people through the promise he made to the patriarchs, and that promise is irrevocable. So even though the Jews as a nation had rejected the gospel, they would still have God's mercy shown on them as a result of the Gentiles who had accepted the gospel. This explanation can be found at the end of that long passage, and is in Romans 11:24-32.

If you want to read a short explanation of what Romans 9:1 to 11:32 is really referring to, the NIV Study Bible has a nice one. If you want a more indepth explanation, The New Jerome Biblical Commentary devotes six pages (fine print, double columns on each page) to this same passage.
 
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redeemedbychrist

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The thing is predestination is something that is very hard to understnad and I believe something that we can never fully grasp humanely speaking.

The thing with preaching is that we don't know who the predestined are. We need to preach to the whosoever will because Christs atoning work on the cross is sufficent for all and all need to hear the message. All have the opportunity to repent. However where the line between an individuals choice to repent and the predestination of the Father begins and ends I dont know. I do know though that without conviction on the Holy Spirit of God a Soul is never saved- that needs to come 1st.
 
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Emmy

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Dear UTVols345. God is Love, and God loves us all. We are all given free Will to choose our Futures. God told us in His Commandments what He wants from us, and we decide whether to follow God`s loving advice, or ignore it, or even go against it.
Those men and women, (i.e. Moses, and other well-known people,)were NOT forced by God, but God could tell what they were capable of, and were especially suited for, because God knows all our futures. God is All-Powerful and All-Knowing, He knows the Past, the Present, and the Future of each one of us. Once God knows what we will be doing, and what we are good at, God will make use of it: not by forcing, but by leading.
I know this is mind-bogling, UTVols, but our God is the great "I AM," He sees all and He knows all. God has given us free Will, and God is NO LIAR. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
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Christopher0121

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Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

It’s my understanding the Predestination is also a theological necessity for believing in a transcendent all knowing (omniscient) God. God isn’t on the edge of His seat hoping that at least some people will choose to seek Salvation in Christ. God already knows who will choose eternal life and endure until the end.

Also, God is transcendent of both time and space. This means that God exists in a state of “omnipresence” that isn’t just expressed in being existent “everywhere”… but rather; it is best expressed by explaining that God is also existent “every-when”. God exists in every second of time (past, present, future) … all at once. God already knows who will be saved… because not only does God know the future without fail… but God is already there, we being seated with Him.

It is the cooperative free will of the elect that makes this an unfolding reality in time. God simply knows all choices that ever will be made and when He will influence those He foreknows will choose Him. God can look at a convert and already knows if that convert will ultimately make the choices that lead to salvation, or if that convert will make choices that lead to condemnation. God has therefore recorded the “elect” in the “book of life” and the salvation of the elect is secure. So free will and God's foreknowledge work together with relation to Predestination. From a temporal and time bound perspective...we make our choices. From an eternal and transcendent perspective... all of our choices are already recorded... they are... destiny.

That’s what I was taught. God isn’t up in Heaven nervously hoping believers will make it and be saved. God already knows exactly who are His.
 
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drjean

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The method of God's salvation which God shares with us has an element of "predestination". It is difficult to conceptualize because it hinges on an attribute of God and who can know the whole mind of God?

One must accept by faith that as a human he may not be able to fully comprehend the magnificence of God Almighty.

The concept of predestination is thusly: God, who is all knowing all the time, because of His knowing (ahead of time mind you) just who of us would accept Christ's redeeming act on the cross, extends His grace to those of us who would not reject Him.

His foreknowing has nothing to do with our choice, our freewill to choose Christ or not. (Just as an earthly father may know just what his child will do does not cause the child to do that act!)

Because God knows/knew just who would accept, to those He extends/extended His grace through the Holy Spirit. He does not/did not deny anyone who will come to Him, He just knows who will and who won't make the choice for Christ. :preach:

"For whomsoever will..."
 
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St_Worm2

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The concept of predestination is thusly: God ... extends His grace to those of us who would not reject Him. He just knows who will and who won't make the choice for Christ. :preach:

DRJEAN, et al, here's a question that I asked myself for years before knowing anything about the Reformed faith.

Why me? Why not my neighbor too? Why did I "choose" to come to faith in Christ when so many do not? Was I made in some special way by God? Why was I able to see what so many others can not? And if so, where's the "fairness" (or perhaps better, the "justice") for the reprobate in that?

Many of my Arminian friends simply say it comes down to nothing more than "choice". What I want vs what they want. What! Chose Hell over Heaven?? Who in their right mind would do that?

Maybe that's it. Everyone else is just nuts! But then we come back to how I was made vs how they were made, don't we?

One last thing, do you believe you were saved by God's grace because He chose to be merciful to you, or was God's grace "extended" to you because He peeked down through the ages and saw the choice you would make? And if the latter is the case, would He not then be giving you something you deserved to have?

Thoughts?

--David

"When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord;
and as many as had been appointed to eternal life, believed"
Acts 13:48
 
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3rdHeaven

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Predestined is often confused with preordained, foreknew.

Also, God does indeed elect some (individuals and groups) for special tasks and missions according to His predestined plan, this does not mean some are elected for salvation and some are elected for damnation. It's an abuse of the terms.

Calvin took some cool ideas and over simplified them. In order to make this work you need to split hairs and take some verses in to a exhaustive Greek translation workout :)

Which ever you believe, we all share one thing in common, the Love for God!
 
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St_Worm2

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Oh, and UTVols345, I agree with redeemedbychrist, we preach because we don't know who the Elect are. We also preach because we are commanded to as, "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Romans 10:17 NKJV). This is the method that God chose to bring us to faith in Him.

Yours and His,
David

How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard?
And how will they hear without a preacher?
Romans 10:14
 
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WinBySurrender

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One last thing, do you believe you were saved by God's grace because He chose to be merciful to you, or was God's grace "extended" to you because He peeked down through the ages and saw the choice you would make? And if the latter is the case, would He not then be giving you something you deserved to have?

Thoughts?
I posted this on the Baptist board in a similar thread this morning in which the question was posed about Scripture indicating we "accept" Christ or not.

The Gospel of John

John 1
9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

The word "receive" is lambano (Strong's #2983) and literally means "to take, lay hold of, take by the hand" in its primary uses. While no man can seek God on His own strength of will, it is quite obvious from these verses that not only is God sovereign (v. 13) in the process of salvation, but also that man has a responsibility (v. 12) to respond to God's call. I emphasize, God's call. Jesus makes quite clear that is the case.

John 6
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


"Draw" is helkuo (Strong's #1670) and is translated thus only once in the New Testament. It means "draw, drag off" or metaphorically, "to draw by inner power, lead, impel". In other words, the Father draws by the power of the Holy Spirit on the inner man who must then respond in that power. Note, in that power not his own power, which is impossible. Does that negate the doctrine of election, the Council of Dort or anything Calvin taught? No, absolutely not!

Clearly, as Calvin taught, the God's sovereignty and man's responsibility -- though apparently exclusive of one another -- must work together for man to be saved. There is no other explanation, hard as it is to grasp.

I think I was saved because God chose to save me, but I also know that I had to respond through surrender. It was not my will to be saved, but God's will that I should be His, that I should give up my rights to myself and allow Him to work through me to bring me to salvation. I believe that is a decision, but not truly mine. It is Him acting on my spirit to be reunited with His Spirit. It's complicated, but I see clearly that is what Scripture teaches.
 
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drjean

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I believe that God's Word is true, and that while all are sinners, His grace is extended to all. Each person has <gasp> free will to choose or reject Christ Jesus. God would not have any perish. 2 Peter 3:9: "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Some do not accept Him. How sad.
 
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Jpark

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His grace is extended to all.

God would not have any perish.

On the contrary.

2 Thess. 2:11-12, 1 Kings 22:23

He prevents them from coming to repentance. That is the meaning of hardening. That is the meaning of 2 Timothy 2:25. That is the meaning of Romans 9:18.

If Hitler repented, God would reluctantly admit him into heaven.
If Osama bin Ladin repented, God would reluctantly admit him into heaven.

But if a person waited all his life and then repented, God would never admit him.

There are rules.
 
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drjean

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No where do I read of such rules as those. The study of God hardening hearts is a good one, and well worth your efforts should you try. It is based once again on God's foreknowledge...or omniscience. Just as with pharaoh, God knew Pharaoh did not want to give in, and so He sealed it because of Pharaoh's own hardness of heart.

However, there are many death bed conversions, and God welcomes them all in... It's all based upon what will occur anyway; just because God knows ahead of time doesn't mean He is the cause of it.

My statements of God not wanting any to perish, and offering salvation to all is Scripture, my friend. Scripture does not contradict Scripture the way God reads it. :)
 
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iLogos

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I can appreciate every one's view and opinion here. I like to believe in death bed conversions too. I honestly do not know. Only God knows. I don't think we can use death bed conversions to prove any thing one way or another. Certainly have faith God will be Just.

The real indicator will be scripture, and that is what we should bank on, not so much personal experiences or feelings. Not that they don't count, they certainly do when they are in harmony with the Word of God, but when they are at odds with the word of God then that is what it is! In the case when we apparently do not have clear scripture reference to say one way or another, then that is the way it is.

The topic of predestination is often taken out of context at the wrong times and can certainly mean different things. But the scriptures are very clear we are called out by God. God is not the one who is lost and we need to find him. We are the ones who are lost and it is He who calls us out.
 
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redeemedbychrist

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Death bed conversion- the theif on the cross- "Lord remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom"
The Lord replied "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise"

And we can't judge the death bed conversion's genuineness but only to say there is a danger that some are not genuine just out of fear of death and judgement. But we will know in heaven
 
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iLogos

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Death bed conversion- the theif on the cross- "Lord remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom"
The Lord replied "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise"

And we can't judge the death bed conversion's genuineness but only to say there is a danger that some are not genuine just out of fear of death and judgement. But we will know in heaven

Thief on the cross is not really a death bed conversion. We have a eye witness account of Jesus forgiving him, and we have Jesus words. We don't have any of that in actual death bed conversions. Understand I am not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just saying that is different and can not be compared to the conversion on the cross unless you want to point out it is possible. Which I never denied. Only God knows the hearts and minds of people. Nice try with the cross ;)
 
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iLogos

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On the contrary.

2 Thess. 2:11-12, 1 Kings 22:23

He prevents them from coming to repentance. That is the meaning of hardening. That is the meaning of 2 Timothy 2:25. That is the meaning of Romans 9:18.

If Hitler repented, God would reluctantly admit him into heaven.
If Osama bin Ladin repented, God would reluctantly admit him into heaven.

But if a person waited all his life and then repented, God would never admit him.

There are rules.

I am not following.

2 Thess 2:11-12 begins to speak of a apostasy to come.

Romans 9:18 will have mercy on who and harden on who.., doesn't really spell out what your trying to imply. he also hardens elects hearts too :)

and 2 Tim 2:25

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

I'm guessing you take peradventure in this verse to some how mean predestined. But actually means: By chance; perhaps; it may be.

So while I am open to Calvin views, i don't see a case in your scriptures you provided here.
 
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jpcedotal

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In order to understand how Predestination and Free Will can coexists, we need to understand what it means when we say God is outside of time...what it means when we say that Christ died for all sinners from Adam & Eve to the last person born on this earth all at the same moment 2000 years ago...

It is a time question and there is no way we can fully comprehend what that means. I mean, how can we even think a thought in the afterlife without having a beginning moment where the thought enters our mind or spirit or soul or presence or whatever?

God lives every moment at the same time(?). See even to say that requires a time measurement. This is one of those question that CAN NOT be answered this side of heaven.
 
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