Question about prayer

[jayem]

Perhaps that depends on the person praying. I've seen people get so "worked up" during prayer that those bodily functions drastically increase rather than decrease.

For sure. I think that occurs mostly in those charismatic and Pentecostal churches, or at large scale revival meetings. Worshippers get hyped up into an intensely heightened emotional state. They shout, they babble unintelligibly, and they can fall to the floor or briefly lose consciousness. It’s bizarre—a sort of mass religious hysteria.

Is it your view that prayer doesn't really accomplish anything except make the person praying feel better about the situation, and gives the person being prayed for false hope?

Yes. Though if the object of prayer is also a religious believer, I won’t disparage showing him/her concern and providing some comfort. But if I’m seriously ill, I don’t want any religious rituals or metaphysical speculation. I want science-based medical care.

 

[J_B_]

Why do Christians pray? I’m not talking about the type of prayer of thanking God for this or that, I’m talking about the type of prayer about getting things done?

There isn't one reason that fits everyone. Even for me, my reason for praying about needs could be different every time. With that said, I understand your root question includes a premise that is basically asking why we're doing something that seems pointless to you. My answer would be that it's not impossible, as you're proposing, for God to react to prayer.

 

[Ken-1122]

There isn't one reason that fits everyone. Even for me, my reason for praying about needs could be different every time. With that said, I understand your root question includes a premise that is basically asking why we're doing something that seems pointless to you. My answer would be that it's not impossible, as you're proposing, for God to react to prayer.

But if God knows and controls everything, doesn't that mean God has already decided the outcome? And if he has decided the outcome, who are you to ask him to do something that is against his will?

 

[J_B_]

But if God knows and controls everything, doesn't that mean God has already decided the outcome? And if he has decided the outcome, who are you to ask him to do something that is against his will?

God could control everything. That doesn't mean he does.

God has perfect knowledge of the world as it is and the world as it could be, but what it is and what it could be are not the same thing. When we act, we change what the world is. God is working to achieve his will, yes, but he acts on the world as it is.

Now, we only know God's will in part. We only know what he has revealed to us. With that said, I doubt God's will encompasses every jot and tittle of the universe. He has left some things to our discretion. Even so, if my will comes into conflict with God's will, I'm going to lose. That shouldn't be surprising. If my will is to beat Serena Williams in tennis, I'm going to lose. We face forces greater than ourselves all the time, and our will is restricted by those forces. That doesn't completely negate our will.

 

[Ken-1122]

God could control everything. That doesn't mean he does.

So in your view, God is not in control of everything?

God has perfect knowledge of the world as it is and the world as it could be, but what it is and what it could be are not the same thing.

So there are limitations to Gods knowledge?

Now, we only know God's will in part. We only know what he has revealed to us. With that said, I doubt God's will encompasses every jot and tittle of the universe. He has left some things to our discretion. Even so, if my will comes into conflict with God's will, I'm going to lose. That shouldn't be surprising. If my will is to beat Serena Williams in tennis, I'm going to lose.

How about if your will is that your spouse survives a horrible illness or injury? Has God already decided if your spouse will live or die? If so, why pray?

 

[J_B_]

So in your view, God is not in control of everything?

It depends what you mean by that. If you mean he can't control everything, then no. If you mean he chooses not to control everything, then yes.

So there are limitations to Gods knowledge?

This may be a matter of semantics, but essentially no. These types of discussions tend to drift into nonsensical realms, asking if God "knows" square circles or the sweet taste of bitterness. God knows all that is logically possible.

How about if your will is that your spouse survives a horrible illness or injury? Has God already decided if your spouse will live or die?

No.

 

[Ken-1122]

It depends what you mean by that. If you mean he can't control everything, then no. If you mean he chooses not to control everything, then yes.

Okay; so God can control everything if he wanted to, but chooses not to? Got it.

This may be a matter of semantics, but essentially no. These types of discussions tend to drift into nonsensical realms, asking if God "knows" square circles or the sweet taste of bitterness. God knows all that is logically possible.

I have no idea what you are saying here.

No.

So God does not know the future?

 

[J_B_]

So God does not know the future?

The future doesn't exist. It's impossible to know something that doesn't exist. There is nothing to know. What God does know (and perfectly) is, as I said before, what the world could be.

But what the world could be is not a singular thing. A woman with a severe illness could die, or she could live. Both are possible. It's a Schrodinger's Cat kind of thing. You don't know until you open the box. God knows what the world could be for every possible combination of every decision that every person could ever make. His will comes to pass for all those possibilities.

I have no idea what you are saying here.

We have to establish what is possible, what is logical, and what exists. It's pointless to ask questions about things that aren't possible, aren't logical, or don't exist. We can string together the words "square" and "circle" to ask about square circles, but if we do that, we're talking nonsense.

Time is an abstraction of the mind. It doesn't exist apart from the mind as a physical thing that we can see, hear, touch, smell, or taste. Likewise, referents to time such as past, present, and future are abstractions of the mind.

It's pointless to ask questions regarding what God knows about what doesn't exist.

 

[Ken-1122]

The future doesn't exist. It's impossible to know something that doesn't exist. There is nothing to know. What God does know (and perfectly) is, as I said before, what the world could be.



We have to establish what is possible, what is logical, and what exists. It's pointless to ask questions about things that aren't possible, aren't logical, or don't exist. We can string together the words "square" and "circle" to ask about square circles, but if we do that, we're talking nonsense.

Time is an abstraction of the mind. It doesn't exist apart from the mind as a physical thing that we can see, hear, touch, smell, or taste. Likewise, referents to time such as past, present, and future are abstractions of the mind.

It's pointless to ask questions regarding what God knows about what doesn't exist.

Fair enough. You must realize; what I know about Christianity is based on what Christians have told me. It's obvious your views concerning God are a bit different from the views other Christians have. So if my questions sounds a bit nonsensical, it might be because they are based on what others have told me.

 

[J_B_]

Fair enough. You must realize; what I know about Christianity is based on what Christians have told me. It's obvious your views concerning God are a bit different from the views other Christians have. So if my questions sounds a bit nonsensical, it might be because they are based on what others have told me.

Yes, and I'm glad you had the patience to stick with me. I hope it helped.

What you most likely know is American Puritan/Reformed Christianity - and maybe also the liberal churches that aren't really churches anymore. What most Americans don't seem to realize is that branch is not the Christianity followed by much of the world and is not the Christianity of the traditional, first generation Church. For that you have to engage with what are called the "confessional" churches ... the confessional Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox.

 

[public hermit]

What you most likely know is American Puritan/Reformed Christianity - and maybe also the liberal churches that aren't really churches anymore. What most Americans don't seem to realize is that branch is not the Christianity followed by much of the world and is not the Christianity of the traditional, first generation Church. For that you have to engage with what are called the "confessional" churches ... the confessional Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox

You realize Reformed churches are confessional, right? But, look, don't let that get in the way of denigrating the faith of others. Lord knows, only those who hold their mouths right and say all the words in the proper order are heard by God.

 

[J_B_]

You realize Reformed churches are confessional, right? But, look, don't let that get in the way of denigrating the faith of others. Lord knows, only those who hold their mouths right and say all the words in the proper order are heard by God.

My comment with respect to liberal churches was admittedly snarky, but that was not the intent with Reformed churches. I suppose it depends on who you've spoken with. I have anecdotal experience with Reformed Christians who made comments that they are not confessional or traditional. Opinions are so varied that I understand why unbelievers get confused and frustrated.

If I am to assume from your comments that you are Reformed, may I ask your particular church? Among some of the revivalist preachers of the Great Awakening, from which the American Reformed movements stemmed, I seem to recall some preachers gleefully proclaiming their newness, which is not a confessional mindset. Regardless, the Reformed churches followed after Luther. Given their differences from Lutheranism, it's hard to make an argument they have remained traditional - especially the American variants.

Finally, and most importantly, whatever my critical opinions of certain philosophies may be, I would never say someone is not a Christian. If you drew that conclusion, I apologize.