Question about Penalty for Sins?

[inspector-gadget]

Hi Christians on this forum.

I have a question maybe I can find the answer on this site.

I wonder if is in the old-testament the penalty for sins the death? And do you Christians believe that it has something to do with, that Jesus must die on the cross?

Someone who can help me out with this question. Thanks.

 

[drich0150]

Hi Christians on this forum.

I have a question maybe I can find the answer on this site.

I wonder if is in the old-testament the penalty for sins the death? And do you Christians believe that it has something to do with, that Jesus must die on the cross?

Someone who can help me out with this question. Thanks.

The wage of any and all sin is death. This is true for the old and new testament.

Jesus paid this wage for us in His death.

 

[razeontherock]

Yup. Simple as that.

 

[elman]

Hi Christians on this forum.

I have a question maybe I can find the answer on this site.

I wonder if is in the old-testament the penalty for sins the death? And do you Christians believe that it has something to do with, that Jesus must die on the cross?

Someone who can help me out with this question. Thanks.

Ezekiel 18 The wicked shall die and not live. The righteous shall live and not die.

 

[inspector-gadget]

But what is the difference between the time for Jesus and after?

Cause in "2 Samuel 12:13" it says: And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

God has forgiven him, and he don't get the penalty of death for a sin? So also for the time of Jesus the people can be forgiven..so for what did Jesus have to die? What has it to do with the thing of "death"?

And in the old-testament some people do sins but they don't die, they lived after that..?

What does it mean, that the one who sinned shall die?

Can someone explain it a little more how you believe this things?

 

[inspector-gadget]

In summary: Do you believe that Jesus died because that then the rule no longer applies that "the one who sin shall die" .. ? - Or has it nothing to do with each other?

 

[razeontherock]

These are good questions, and they are deep. While the questions may seem simple, there is much to understand before it makes sense. And I'm afraid there are at least a few basic things that are different between our Faiths that may make it difficult for you to see what is being conveyed here, but I'll try! I think others will, too.

So first of all, it is indeed puzzling that in the OT G-d could forgive sin, even at such a heinous level like what King David committed. Yet your background also teaches He is Most merciful? Yet what we see, is that forgiveness rests on Christ's finished work on the Cross.

We see that He went to "the spirits in prison," and preached to them after He died by crucifixion. We see that the gates of hell did not prevail, and that Jesus conquered death! And He brought those in sheol that believed His Gospel with Him. So in this way G-d's forgiveness through Christ, transcends time. Does Islam also teach that G-d is not only eternal but unaffected by time, knowing the end from the beginning?

__________________________________________________________________


Different subject:

how can Jesus "taste death for every man?" (And woman, and child) The theological term is "expiatory power," but even without that we see the concept presented over and over throughout the Scriptures. Take David and Goliath for example. Why did those two fight? It is the same concept. Since Goliath lost, it is presumed that every Philistine would lose to every Jew, and more humane that only one need to actually fight and die.

Neat trick, huh? Even the Jewish High Priest saw how it would be more expedient for one man to die for the sins of the whole people ...

There are many MANY different ways of understanding this! Scripture is chock full of them. I do really believe that we could spend the eternity of eternal life looking upon this as it is, and not only never be bored but be thoroughly and ecstatically consumed with worship. Yet in this life we are limited in our understanding of it. While it is nice when G-d grants us a moment to see more clearly, our Faith still comes down to humility and obedience. I suspect that is not too different from your experience?

 

[elman]

But what is the difference between the time for Jesus and after?

Cause in "2 Samuel 12:13" it says: And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

God has forgiven him, and he don't get the penalty of death for a sin? So also for the time of Jesus the people can be forgiven..so for what did Jesus have to die? What has it to do with the thing of "death"?

And in the old-testament some people do sins but they don't die, they lived after that..?

What does it mean, that the one who sinned shall die?

Can someone explain it a little more how you believe this things?

There are two forms of existence--physical and spiritual. There are two ways to die, physically and spiritually. In Ezekiel 18 it refers to the spiritual existence--called the soul that you can kill with your own sin and the wicked dying is spiritual death and the righteous living is spiritual life.

 

[elman]

In summary: Do you believe that Jesus died because that then the rule no longer applies that "the one who sin shall die" .. ? - Or has it nothing to do with each other?

For the one to sin and not die, they must repent--Luke 13:3

 

[inspector-gadget]

Fine that there are people who try to answer me.

Drich0150 said: "The wage of any and all sin is death. This is true for the old and new testament."

If there a difference between before Jesus and after Jesus. For Jesus was the Penalty for sins death and after not any more of? Do you believe it on this way or? correct me if i'm wrong.

And yes we believe that the creator knows everything what has past and what's to come. He's all knowing.




Jesus paid this wage for us in His death. __________________

These are good questions, and they are deep. While the questions may seem simple, there is much to understand before it makes sense. And I'm afraid there are at least a few basic things that are different between our Faiths that may make it difficult for you to see what is being conveyed here, but I'll try! I think others will, too.

So first of all, it is indeed puzzling that in the OT G-d could forgive sin, even at such a heinous level like what King David committed. Yet your background also teaches He is Most merciful? Yet what we see, is that forgiveness rests on Christ's finished work on the Cross.

We see that He went to "the spirits in prison," and preached to them after He died by crucifixion. We see that the gates of hell did not prevail, and that Jesus conquered death! And He brought those in sheol that believed His Gospel with Him. So in this way G-d's forgiveness through Christ, transcends time. Does Islam also teach that G-d is not only eternal but unaffected by time, knowing the end from the beginning?

__________________________________________________________________


Different subject:

how can Jesus "taste death for every man?" (And woman, and child) The theological term is "expiatory power," but even without that we see the concept presented over and over throughout the Scriptures. Take David and Goliath for example. Why did those two fight? It is the same concept. Since Goliath lost, it is presumed that every Philistine would lose to every Jew, and more humane that only one need to actually fight and die.

Neat trick, huh? Even the Jewish High Priest saw how it would be more expedient for one man to die for the sins of the whole people ...

There are many MANY different ways of understanding this! Scripture is chock full of them. I do really believe that we could spend the eternity of eternal life looking upon this as it is, and not only never be bored but be thoroughly and ecstatically consumed with worship. Yet in this life we are limited in our understanding of it. While it is nice when G-d grants us a moment to see more clearly, our Faith still comes down to humility and obedience. I suspect that is not too different from your experience?

 

[inspector-gadget]

Ah on that way, so when someone sins then he must get a spiritually death, but why you believe teach that Jesus get a real death.. physically. Then it has nothing to do with the thing about that if someone sin that he must die or? It seems to me two different things then?

There are two forms of existence--physical and spiritual. There are two ways to die, physically and spiritually. In Ezekiel 18 it refers to the spiritual existence--called the soul that you can kill with your own sin and the wicked dying is spiritual death and the righteous living is spiritual life.

 

[inspector-gadget]

And this time,now? The same way? If you say yes, then there is no difference between before Jesus and after Jesus?

For the one to sin and not die, they must repent--Luke 13:3

 

[joey_downunder]

Inspector-gadget:In Old Testament animal sacrifices had to be made to atone (or cover, make up for, cause God to look favourably towards Israelites) for mankind's sins. See Exodus 29. Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament's prophet Isaiah's prophecy of the person who would take away our sins. See Isaiah 53
In New Testament John the Baptist shows he knows what Jesus' purpose is for God. John 1:19-34
Jesus tells the apostles He knows is going to lay down His life for us. Mark 8:27-33, Mark 10:45
Letters to the early churches explain further why Jesus' death meant that sin was fully paid for e.g. Hebrews 9:11-28 , Romans 5:6-11. As you should see now faith alone in Christ is what saves us because Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice Romans 10:9-11 .

 

[elman]

Ah on that way, so when someone sins then he must get a spiritually death, but why you believe teach that Jesus get a real death.. physically. Then it has nothing to do with the thing about that if someone sin that he must die or? It seems to me two different things then?

Everyone dies physically, including the righteous. The death that is the consequence of our killing our soul with our own sin is not our physical death, but our spiritual death.

 

[inspector-gadget]

I'm sorry,I don't understand it. What is the meaning of "Death" in the verses. Is there after Jesus still the rule that the one who sin shall die? I want to know clear of this something has to do with the crucifixion/death of Jesus where you christians believe in?

 

[elman]

And this time,now? The same way? If you say yes, then there is no difference between before Jesus and after Jesus?

God does not change. He is the same now and forever. What do you believe about your destiny after you die?

 

[elman]

I'm sorry,I don't understand it. What is the meaning of "Death" in the verses. Is there after Jesus still the rule that the one who sin shall die? I want to know clear of this something has to do with the crucifixion/death of Jesus where you christians believe in?

Death is the loss of life. Yes after Jesus and before Jesus you kill your own soul with your own sin. That means your spiritual life ceases to exist. It has nothing to do with physical life and death.

 

[bling]

And this time,now? The same way? If you say yes, then there is no difference between before Jesus and after Jesus?

Understanding atonement is not easy and trying to understand the cross from a “non-Christian” background is very difficult (the Bible tells us the cross is foolishness to the world.)

Death can be physical or spiritual and we know sin produces “death” so that has to be spiritual since we all do not immediately die when we sin.

Physical death since Christ went to the cross and especially rose from the death has lost its significance since it now becomes: ”The way good people get to go home and the way bad people quit doing bad stuff.”

God would realize we would sin and if any of us think about the situation we would realize all mature adults would/will sin.

Sin is not the problem (unforgiven sin can be a huge problem).

Being “sinless” is not the objective and really never was.

Yes, God can forgive sins without the need for anything, but we as humans need to feel disciplined (punished) for our transgressions (as any child would feel of a wonderful parent to know that parent is truly concerned for them). God also need to show total consistency (justice) so equivalent punishment is needed for equivalent offences.

Everything God does is to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective and that everything includes allowing Christ to go to the cross. (It is totally for our sake and not for God’s sake.)

There are some things even God cannot do: God cannot make a being that has been around forever and was not made. But the one thing in this matter God cannot do is make humans initially or instinctively with Godly type Love (that would be robotic type love) and God cannot be loving toward us and force us to accept His Love (that would be a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun). Accepting God’s Love as a free undeserving gift (Charity) is the objective and extremely easy in some ways and very hard in other ways.

This takes some thinking:

1. God is doing all He can to help willing humans fulfill their objective, so whatever is happening it is for the sake of willing humans and not for God’s sake.

2. “Punishment” is a form of discipline and discipline has lots of benefits: Deterrent for future offences by the person being punished and others, is just and consistent, shows we are children and God is our parent, and relieves the concern with not being “punished” yet.

3. The severity of the offence is often determined by the severity of the punishment and sin is a huge offence carrying a huge debt.

4. As a wonderful Parent God would need to see to it that His Children were disciplined (punished).

I have written a parable to help explain:

There is battle going on and you as an old man leave you post. The crime is punishable by 40 lashes or equivalent, but that will kill you. Your young innocent son offers to take your place and explains to the judge (general) that; 40 lashes on him will cause you tremendous pain and anguish. The judge (general) refuses because that would not be just to punish an innocent for the guilty (Whipping Boy). The innocent son then says: “I will go over to the enemy’s camp for my father’s sake and they will beat me and imprison me until the end of the war”. The Judge (general) says he cannot stop the young man from doing such a thing and knows this will really hurt the father when you find out, so the judge will not have to punish you father (justice has been done). You plead for the son’s return, but there is really no other way for you to be punished and live.


When you come to the realization of what Christ has done it is painful and heart retching (like in Acts 2:37 we are to feel the same way), but there is this tremendous Love shown in what Christ and God did that keeps the thought of the cross from becoming debilitating. We should look at the cross with mixed emotions.

It is unjust to arbitrarily forgive some people and not forgive others, consistency is important. Also, discipline and forgiveness have different objectives. We forgive our children, but discipline (punish) with time out or something like that is so they know: we are very concerned about their behavior, there are consequences to their actions, If they are playing in the street when they have been told not to, the punishment will be more suffer showing more significance than eating in the living room, we are fair and just, we do what we say, and we love them.

What Christ went through is what I deserve to go through for my sins. The price of sin is huge. But that also means I have been forgiven of much and Christ (and really our own experiences) has taught us “…He that is forgiven much will Love much…”. All this is being done to help us “Love Much!!!” This is a Godly type Love that can thus compel us to be like God (who is Love) and Love with all our heart, soul, mind and energy. This Love is the greatest and most powerful gift in all universes (compelling God to do all He does), but it must be accepted as pure charity (that is what it is).

Humans have a really hard time accepting huge gifts as pure charity that cost the giver big time. The gift of Godly type Love is really huge since Love is the most powerful force in all universes causing God to do all He does.

 

[Emmy]

Dear inspector-gadget. There is God`s eternal Law of Justice, we know it under " what ye sow ye will reap." And in the Old Testament when people sinned, there was punishment. King David is a good example for us, he loved God and God loved him, but when he sinned he was punished, until he deeply repented and then God would forgive him. When Jesus came He died for us, that we might live again. Man`s sins were too many, and God`s Holy Law demanded Repentance. We know from the Bible that no-one was left who could pay the Prize, and Jesus, who was without sin or transgressions, paid the Prize, which we could not. Jesus died that we might live, Jesus became our Saviour, and our sins were forgiven. Christians, we still sin, but we ask God to forgive us every time, and God who is all Love, and loves us, He will forgive us if we ask in sincere prayer for Gods Forgiveness. When Jesus was living on Earth He gave us two very important Commandments: 1) Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. 2) Love our neighbour as we love ourselves. God wants our love, freely given and no conditions asked. And every time we stumble or fall, we ask God sincerely for Forgiveness, and God will forgive us as we will forgive those who sin against us. In the Old Testament for those Heathen-Tribes and before God`s Kingdom was established, death-penalty was freely given. And when in time repentance was becoming known and accepted, many sins were forgiven. And when Jesus came, and showed us God as He really is, we know that we have a forgiving God if we ask sincerely to be forgiven. God wants us to change, to become as loving as Jesus told us in His two Commandments. After all what God and Jesus have done for us, to change from being selfish and unloving to becoming loving selflessly, is a small prize for us to pay. I say this with love, inspector-gadget. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ. P.S. God`s eternal Law of Justice: " Thou wilt reap what thou sowest," is eternal. And the Bible will describe everything more in detail.

 

[inspector-gadget]

Wow a lot of text but oke i have read all the text thanks guys, so the verse that the one who sin shall die, still exists right? anyway it has nothing to do with the "Death of Jesus", i mean after that nothing changes about that verse? Is this correct or have i misunderstood it?