Question about original sin.

[RVincent]

Hello

When it comes to the doctrine of the origin of sin, does orthodoxy teach that we inherited our sinful nature from Adam?

(Rom 5:12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This verse seems to say that we inherited the wages of sin, i.e. death (Rom. 6:23). But then goes on to say that "all have sinned."

My sins seem to be independent of what Adam did, i.e., I don't seem to need him to make a bad decision (passing the buck).

Only the punishment was inherited.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Hello

When it comes to the doctrine of the origin of sin, does orthodoxy teach that we inherited our sinful nature from Adam?

(Rom 5:12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This verse seems to say that we inherited the wages of sin, i.e. death (Rom. 6:23). But then goes on to say that "all have sinned."

My sins seem to be independent of what Adam did, i.e., I don't seem to need him to make a bad decision (passing the buck).

Only the punishment was inherited.

Good question RVINCENT,
Have a look at these verses:

Ephesians 2:2-4 KJV
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

​

This seems to be saying that the fallen nature came to us because of our birth.
And this:

John 8:41-44 KJV
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
​

Again, this seems to be saying that our inner nature is that of the devil and it was a matter of inheritance.
What do you think?

 

[RVincent]

Thank you.

Well, Christ was addressing a specific group in John 8.

I think we are that way, by nature, on our own.

If Adam hadn't sinned, I'll bet I would be a sinner by nature anyway.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Thank you.

Well, Christ was addressing a specific group in John 8.

I think we are that way, by nature, on our own.

If Adam hadn't sinned, I'll bet I would be a sinner by nature anyway.

I am a firm believer in thinking outside the box my friend.
I may not agree with you on this, but I applaud your seeking attitude and desire to see things without preconceived ideas.
Blessings to you!
Dids

 

[holyrokker]

One problem I have with the concept of an inherited sin nature is how is it inherited? Is it genetic? If so, wouldn't that make sin a physical problem? If sin is physical, then Jesus death wouldn't have been necessary.

Thoughts??

 

[verismo]

One problem I have with the concept of an inherited sin nature is how is it inherited? Is it genetic? If so, wouldn't that make sin a physical problem? If sin is physical, then Jesus death wouldn't have been necessary.

Thoughts??

I would say: Yes, it is a physical problem in that the war between our will and the power of sin is waged in our members. Rom 7

And we know that we are born with this problem from Gen 8:21.

But, I would not say genetic, I would say it is the "human condition". There has only been one person preserved from it, and therefore her offspring was as well free from it.

But, I guess you could say that it is a physical problem, one that is so severe that our spirits, as unredeemed, can't overcome it.

" Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?"

 

[holyrokker]

If sin is a PHYSICAL problem - then Christ died in vain.
He died to reconcile us to God - relational.
He didn't die to cure a physical problem. He brought healing with Him before His death.

 

[verismo]

If sin is a PHYSICAL problem - then Christ died in vain.
He died to reconcile us to God - relational.
He didn't die to cure a physical problem. He brought healing with Him before His death.

Yeah, you already said that.

I saw you in another thread I think disliking the idea of original sin...what is your problem with it? You are afraid that if we say we were born with it we have a cop out and don't take personal responsibility for sinning?

Wouldn't you say that the way we were reconciled to God is that Christ redeemed our Nature?

 

[holyrokker]

That's part of the problem I have with it. The other is just that it doesn't seem to be clearly taught in the Bible.

Ezekiel 18:4 "For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son-both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die."

Ezekiel 18:17-20 "He will not die for his father's sin; he will surely live. But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people.
"Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him."

Here's a clear case that stands against the whole concept of original sin.

 

[tigersnare]

One problem I have with the concept of an inherited sin nature is how is it inherited? Is it genetic? If so, wouldn't that make sin a physical problem? If sin is physical, then Jesus death wouldn't have been necessary.

Thoughts??

Do you have a problem with "Inputed Righteouness"? I would hope you do, only in that you are consistant with your logic.

 

[Antonio83]

Does "original sin" mean that babies are born sinful?

If so, does that mean babies are not innocent?

 

[holyrokker]

My view on "imputed righteousness" isn't easy to explain in a short post.

I'm not real familiar with the entire "Calvinistic" teaching of imputed righteousness to say whether or not I agree with it. (my guess is that I probably would find much in it that I would agree with)

To summarize my view: We can never "acheive" righteousness by doing "good" - Once a person sins, there is no going back and "undoing" that sin. The only way of being considered righteous is to be forgiven. In being forgiven, there is no longer any guilt held against us.
Romans 4:5 says: "However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."

The greek word translated credited is "logizomai". It was an accounting term.
It deals with actuality. An accountant is concerned with what is actually in an account. If I "logizomai" that my checking account has $50 - it really has $50.

If God "logizomai" that we are righteous - we really are righteous. God doesn't "pretend" we are righteous. The standard that He has established as being true righteousness is faith. If I trust in Christ - I have met all the requirements of being righteous. God doesn't just treat me like I'm righteous - He actually considers me righteous. It boggles my mind that His grace is such that a sinner like me can meet the full requirements of righteousnessness simply by trusting Christ!

 

[pcwilkins]

I look at it something like this. God made Adam in His image - i.e. holy. Holiness was something that Adam possessed. He lost it.

Similarly, my Dad might possess a fortune - my inheritance. If he was to lose it, then it's gone - I can't complain that, since it wasn't my fault it was lost, I shouldn't be punished.

I know this is simplistic but I find it helps me!

Pete

 

[pcwilkins]

Does "original sin" mean that babies are born sinful?

If so, does that mean babies are not innocent?

Babies are born SINNERS, though not necessarily sinFUL.

That DOESN'T necessarily mean that babies who die are condemned, that is another debate altogether!

Pete

 

[armothe]

Babies are born SINNERS, though not necessarily sinFUL.
That DOESN'T necessarily mean that babies who die are condemned, that is another debate altogether!

What you mean is that humans are born with the potential to sin. When they are no longer oblivious to what is good and what is evil - and do indeed commit an act of sin; THEN they are sinful and are considered a sinner.

-A

 

[tigersnare]

What you mean is that humans are born with the potential to sin. When they are no longer oblivious to what is good and what is evil - and do indeed commit an act of sin; THEN they are sinful and are considered a sinner.

-A

That's not at all what he said.

 

[armothe]

That's not at all what he said.

I'm sorry. I was trying to make sense of what he was saying.

Somehow saying that someone is a sinner, but not sinful is a bit confusing to me.

-A

 

[CSMR]

When it comes to the doctrine of the origin of sin, does orthodoxy teach that we inherited our sinful nature from Adam?

My sins seem to be independent of what Adam did, i.e., I don't seem to need him to make a bad decision (passing the buck).

Only the punishment was inherited.

Yes, the doctrine of original sin has to do with the inheritance of a sinful nature. That doesn't mean that sins are inherited. You do your own sins; you do not inherit sins. But what causes you to sin, your sin-nature, you inherit from Adam. The work I do with my hands I do not inherit from my parents, but the hands with which I do that work I do inherit.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Holiroker,
This whole section in Ezekiel is labeled "personal responsibility" in my Bible. You correctly express that it addresses sins committed in this life being charged or going against the person committing it. Specifically it teaches against the practice of punishing a son for the deeds of his father. For me it is a bit of a stretch to claim this sheds light on the topic at hand. Especially in light of Paul's statements already quoted.

To understand our teaching on original sin, one must first distinguish as we do the sinful acts in our lives from a single act of one man, Adam. For him it was a sin, just like our sinful acts are now. More than that, Adams first sin caused something that then separated not only himself from God, but also all mankind to follow Adam in this life. We say Adam was created holy and so able to walk with God. After his first sin, Adam lost that holiness not only for himself, but also for all of us. There were other effects, death, suffering, life became a struggle for all, and we inherit a fallen nature…etc. In our teaching of original sin we focus on the holiness lost and do not include these other effects of Adam's actions in this concept.

We all seem to agree that something happened which forever changed the relationship between mankind and God. We say it is that something which separates us now from God from our birth. We teach that none of us are born holy, save Jesus and Mary. The rest of us need the same sanctifying grace that was given Mary from birth, to regain what Adam lost for all. That grace could only come from a supernatural act to make it possible for that resulting barrier to potentially be removed for us all. Without that potential being freely made available for us, we say that none of us could ever return to God's presence. It is that something, the lack of holiness we are all born with which we call original sin.

 

[Soldier_For_Christ]

I believe that God believes that all Children below 12 aren't responsible for their actions. However, when a child turns 12 is about when they start making their own decisions and becoming more independant. I believe that should the Rapture (or the end of the world) start or occur today, all people below the age of 12 would be taken to heaven.

It's kind of hard to explain. My belief is that the way God sees it, Sin in embedded in everyone's genes but doesn't REALLY start to kick in until they reach their teenage years, when they become more rebelious to authority, right or wrong authority at that, and also begin to form their own opinions about their world. Although most begin to form personal opinions long before teenage years, they don't really start to practice these opinions until they are about 12 or 13.