question about HGT

Justatruthseeker said:

Which is just a natural occurrence between mating taxa. Despite the claimed 50 mutations per birth - all Asians remain Asians and will always remain Asian. As all Africans will remain African.

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All Asians are descended from Africans.

whois said:

so genes aren't always triplets?

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Codons are always triplets - its is for chemical reasons and has to do with how the chemistry of amino acids works and how they bind to an RNA strand. The codon length is not a property of DNA nor RNA but a property of the chemical nature of amino acids - and that is why all this talk about "information" in DNA does not make much sense to me. DNA is a enormous big complex chemical molecule that reacts with other chemicals and makes RNA. RNA is also a chemical . Nowhere is there a novel with a story to tell, read by some reader.

whois said:

so anything less than a full codon would most likely be detrimental (if added in a coding sequence)?

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I also forgot to mention that any potential harmful effect of a frame shift is (on a pure theoretical level when not considering the biological function) proportional to the position in the gene the frame shift occurs. The closer to the end, the less likely to cause trouble - maybe. But this comes with a big "maybe". It depends on the biological function and how the protein is folded up and how important the last part is for the protein to fold correctly and still maintain is vital function. This is related to how and why a protein works and how it gets folded. One can simply not make a general statement for all genes but each gene must be regarded as a special case with its own unique way to change due to a frame shift. A frame shift close to the end may very well just cause a neutral change in genes - the protein just get a few extra (or fewer) amino acid attached to the protein string. This might not cause any effect at all on the function. Or a frame shift in the end might cause the protein to stop work as before because the end was vital for its old function. Extra amino acid may cause a side effect, such as resistance to a decease. It may not cause a change in function but cause a change in the kinetic of reactions and if the reaction is time dependent then it might cause some higher level biological change - such as growing more muscle tissue or longer or shorter legs, thicker or thinner shells... or I dunno what nature might have in store. The point is; you never know what might happen until it actually happens.

And for clarification - a cells environment is dependent on the cell type as well - what tissue it is. A liver cell is chemically different from a nerve cell. A frame shift in a gene in one tissue type may have a some kind of effect while a frame shift in the same gene in another tissue type may have no effect at all.

All that said; some bacterium also uses frame shift to actually encode two different proteins in the very same gene! It works in such a way that two promotor regions up streams are frame shifted in relation to each other. Every gene has the potential to code for three different proteins.

Think about what that means! It means all nonsense creationist talk about DNA as storing "information" gets very hard to explain (as it wasn't already); what does it mean for the the so called "information" content stored in the DNA that the same template can be translated in three ways? I dunno....

Justatruthseeker said:

Despite the claimed 50 mutations per birth

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50 mutation of what and claimed by who? In total, or in genes, or in disrupting genes, or of what?

Justatruthseeker said:

Asians remain Asians and will always remain Asian

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So why does it exists human or are you saying there is no such thing as humans? I mean if humans only make humans where did the Asians comes from? Are they a separate kind - the Asian-kind?

What is the point in saying: I remain myself and will always remain myself? Does it follow I will give birth to clones of myself? No, that is a non sequitur.

sfs said:

All Asians are descended from Africans.

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All Husky and Mastiff are descended from two wolves - but you still recognize them as a separate infraspecific taxa within the species from a mastiff.

So your point being what?

In situ said:

50 mutation of what and claimed by who? In total, or in genes, or in disrupting genes, or of what?

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It's your claim, not mine.

http://www.livescience.com/33347-mutants-average-human-60-genetic-mutations.html

Although I guess we got to make that 60 "errors" now, not 50, my mistake.

So why does it exists human or are you saying there is no such thing as humans? I mean if humans only make humans where did the Asians comes from? Are they a separate kind - the Asian-kind?

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Sigh, Asian mates with Asian and produces Asian. Have you ever once observed an Asian become other than an Asian?

Asians came from the same place Husky and mastiff did - from an original pair of infraspecific taxa in which the genetic code was separated from the start. What you think over 100 dog breeds within the species from two wolves occurred by magic?

What is the point in saying: I remain myself and will always remain myself? Does it follow I will give birth to clones of myself? No, that is a non sequitur.

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And yet your children will always remain the same infraspecific taxa you are. They will never mutate into anything else. Only if one of them mates with another infraspecific taxa within the species - will a new infraspecific taxa come into the record - suddenly - with none of your Fairie Dust transitional forms needed or any evolution involved. When an African and an Asian mate - their children are Afro-Asian - neither Asian nor African but a combination of both. Yet Asian will always remain Asian and African will always remain African. As Husky remains Husky and Mastiff remains Mastiff and T-Rex remained T-Rex.

Don't try to play off your incorrect classifications in the fossil record with Fairie Dust please.

whois said:

how does science know the difference between a HGT gene and an "evolved" gene?

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HOW ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_gene_transfer

An evolved gene comes from above... ancestral inheritance

A mutated gene, is originally a single gene, that is altered / added-to
by an external influence ie, via bacterial or, some other means (NOT inherited)

Justatruthseeker said:

Don't try to play off your incorrect classifications in the fossil record with Fairie Dust please.

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Who mentioned the fossil record? I thought this thread was about HGT.

Justatruthseeker said:

All Husky and Mastiff are descended from two wolves - but you still recognize them as a separate infraspecific taxa within the species from a mastiff.

So your point being what?

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My point being that you said, "Despite the claimed 50 mutations per birth - all Asians remain Asians and will always remain Asian. As all Africans will remain African." All Africans did not remain African, and all Asians did not remain Asians. What you said was wrong.

whois said:

each letter represented a codon, the colon an unknown base pair.
your post pretty well describes what i was getting at though.
is AGA always a stop bit?
what about a start bit?
how does DNA know what junk is, is it everything between the last stop bit and the next start bit?

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I had to go back and fix my previous post, since I messed up the stop codon: AGA is not a stop codon. Blame it on posting while sleepy. TGA, which is what I corrected it to, is always as stop codon, as are TAA and TAG. I hope I got it right this time.

Translation of the protein always starts at an ATG, which also codes for methionine. There are also start and stop signals for transcription, the process that occurs before translation and that copies the DNA information from the gene into messenger RNA.

DNA doesn't know what junk is. It just sits there. Certain sequence strings can cause proteins or RNAs to bind at that site, potentially starting or inhibiting transcription. If those signals cause something useful to happen, then that stretch of DNA, along with what is transcribed, are functional.

davedajobauk said:

HOW ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_gene_transfer

An evolved gene comes from above... ancestral inheritance

A mutated gene, is originally a single gene, that is altered / added-to
by an external influence ie, via bacterial or, some other means (NOT inherited)

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ALL HGT are inherited from the point of insertion - which you them simply mistake as ancestral - when it is due to those foreign virus inserting foreign genomes - and hence you are able to trace it only to it's insertion point where it began to be passed down vertically.

Jimmy D said:

Who mentioned the fossil record? I thought this thread was about HGT.

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Is this your avoidance?

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/question-about-hgt.7914295/page-4#post-68775304

sfs said:

My point being that you said, "Despite the claimed 50 mutations per birth - all Asians remain Asians and will always remain Asian. As all Africans will remain African." All Africans did not remain African, and all Asians did not remain Asians. What you said was wrong.

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No, because you refuse to accept observations of the natural world. African must have mated with another infraspecific taxa to produce Asians - no matter how many such mating's between infraspecific taxa it took.

The Chinook does not EVOLVE from the mastiff or the Husky. The Afro-Asian does not EVOLVE from the African or the Asian. Please at least try to keep the Fairie Dust to a minimum.

So tell us all - which infraspecific taxa did the African mate with that eventually led to the infraspecific taxa Asian? It is your Fairie Dust belief that Africans magically EVOLVED into Asians, when over 6,000 years of observations of the real world has repeatedly informed you that it takes (two) separate infraspecific taxa to create another. And here is where the Fairie Dust begins.......

So in reality it is what you said that is wrong - falsified by over 6,000 years of empirical evidence.

Justatruthseeker said:

No, because you refuse to accept observations of the natural world.

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I make my living by accepting observations of the natural world -- in particular, observations about the genetic history of humans. You don't.

African must have mated with another infraspecific taxa to produce Asians - no matter how many such mating's between infraspecific taxa it took.

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No, they didn't have to. Empirical observations of the natural world show that populations, including populations of humans, are constantly changing.

whois said:

a process starts at one end of DNA and encounters a start codon. (does it matter at which end? how does the process know?
it assembles 3 bits and continues this process until it encounters a stop codon.
it then takes these assembled bits and constructs the protein.

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It's a little more involved than that. First comes transcription, which copies the information from the DNA to messenger RNA. The process starts at (well, near) a stretch of DNA called a promoter. Some promoters have a specific direction associated with them: they will only create transcripts in one direction. Others produce two transcripts, one in each direction. In either case, the transcript that's produced has a natural orientation. Unlike DNA, which is double-stranded and which can be read in either direction, the messenger RNA is single-stranded and can only be read in one direction.

The transcript RNA is then processed. Big chunks of filler DNA (introns) are removed, the ends are capped, and other things happen.

The processed transcript is then translated by a ribosome, which is a complex of proteins and RNA. The ribosome starts translating at the first ATG it encounters. It decodes each triplet codon in turn, pulls in the appropriate amino acid (which is attached to a transfer RNA molecule) and adds it to the growing polypeptide.

the use of start and stop codons seems to suggest that not all base pairs are used.
these unused base pairs is what i refer to as "junk".
correct me if i'm wrong, but this "junk" can still undergo transposition, deletions, and other gene mutatiuons, correct?

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Yes, junk can undergo any kind of mutation. Junk DNA is DNA that doesn't code for a useful product (protein or RNA), and that also doesn't act as a useful switch for turning production of a useful product on or off.

I feel like you would have better luck here.

sfs said:

I make my living by accepting observations of the natural world -- in particular, observations about the genetic history of humans. You don't.


No, they didn't have to. Empirical observations of the natural world show that populations, including populations of humans, are constantly changing.

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Make your living scamming tax dollars maybe, but certainly not accepting those natural observations. Don't try that better than tho attitude with me, get's you nowhere, with what you are preaching I'm expecting I know more than you.

Prove it - show me an Asian that has become anything but an Asian??? African???? Husky???? Mastiff???? Panda Bear???? Bottle-nose Dolphin????? ______________ (insert animal/plant/bacteria/virus name here)????????

Without the mating with another infraspecific taxa within the species - you have observed nothing but minute variations among the members of each infraspecific taxa. Despite those claimed 50, I mean 60 "errors" that occur with every birth.

Your own experiments merely validate this. After billions of mutations and billions of generations E coli remained E coli - the exact same infraspecific taxa they started as within the bacterium species to which they belong.

Why must all evolutionist's ignore what we observe in the natural world?????? And then confound the error by claiming a process whose errors barely affect the infraspecific taxa they happen in, is the cause, while ignoring those mating infraspecific taxa producing large variation right on front of your eyes.

As I said, the Fairie Dust will now begin.....

It is very simple.

show me an Asian that has become anything but an Asian??? African???? Husky???? Mastiff???? Panda Bear???? Bottle-nose Dolphin????? ______________ (insert animal/plant/bacteria/virus name here)????????

Show me one of those natural observations that you accept?????

I for one am not denying that mutations occur during those 50, I mean 60 "errors" that slipped through the repair process.



And no, we are not observing the evolution of flying cows.

Justatruthseeker said:

Make your living scamming tax dollars maybe, but certainly not accepting those natural observations. Don't try that better than tho attitude with me, get's you nowhere, with what you are preaching I'm expecting I know more than you.

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Uh huh.

Prove it - show me an Asian that has become anything but an Asian???

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