Question about Gift of Prophecy

[GingerBeer]

@GingerBeer so are you defining it as new revelations? if so, can you give an example of a new revelation? you also mentioned peters reference to prophecy being linked to scripture, are you also defining prophecy as something that MUST be written down?

Sure I can give an example of new revelation (new at the time it was written)

My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation. Set thy heart aright, and constantly endure, and make not haste in time of trouble. Cleave unto him, and depart not away, that thou mayest be increased at thy last end. Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Believe in him, and he will help thee; order thy way aright, and trust in him. Ye that fear the Lord, wait for his mercy; and go not aside, lest ye fall. Ye that fear the Lord, believe him; and your reward shall not fail. Ye that fear the Lord, hope for good, and for everlasting joy and mercy. Look at the generations of old, and see; did ever any trust in the Lord, and was confounded? or did any abide in his fear, and was forsaken? or whom did he ever despise, that called upon him? For the Lord is full of compassion and mercy, longsuffering, and very pitiful, and forgiveth sins, and saveth in time of affliction. Woe be to fearful hearts, and faint hands, and the sinner that goeth two ways! Woe unto him that is fainthearted! for he believeth not; therefore shall he not be defended. Woe unto you that have lost patience! and what will ye do when the Lord shall visit you? They that fear the Lord will not disobey his Word; and they that love him will keep his ways. They that fear the Lord will seek that which is well, pleasing unto him; and they that love him shall be filled with the law. They that fear the Lord will prepare their hearts, and humble their souls in his sight, Saying, We will fall into the hands of the Lord, and not into the hands of men: for as his majesty is, so is his mercy.
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[disciple1]

What is the Gift of Prophecy, and has it ceased?

Is it to be used in churches today?

1 Corinthians chapter 13 verse 2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
1 Corinthians chapter 14 verse 1
Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy.

Those two verses are all I can find in the bible, but it is saying that love is more important.

Do you love gay people, do you love people who hate you, I sometimes have a hard time with it to, but these verses are saying love is more important, and it sounds like love comes first.

 

[OzSpen]

You may find Wayne Grudem's book on the subject helpful.
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In general, the old testament prophet age ended at the time John the Baptist was beheaded. The job of a prophet during the age of the law and the prophets was to turn people away from sin and communicate messages directly from God. The basis of prophecy was the law.
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In the new testament age, prophets take on a different role as all gifts are meant for edification of the body of Christ as a whole. The basis of new testament prophecy is the testimony of Jesus.
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The main difference between an OT prophet and a NT prophet is that in the NT, you are instructed to not despise prophesyings, but to test everything and keep what is good and discard what is not. In the OT, the prophet would say THUS SAITH THE LORD, and there was no debate over whether the Lord said it or not, very take it or leave it type thing. In the NT, we weigh what is said based on what God has communicated to us as "good" ... in most contexts, this means the scriptures. However there may be some people who base their agreement or disagreement on how God has treated them over the years. And also in the ancient traditions, the writings of the church fathers may weigh in also.
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So, I believe prophecy has a place in the New Testament age for born again believers, but the old testament example of listen to me or else, is outdated as greatness in the Kingdom of God is not based on lording it over people, but it is based on the service provided.

Michael,

Thank you for giving such an excellent, though short, differentiation between OT & NT prophecy. Wayne Grudem's book, The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today (Crossway Books 1988, 2000) is the finest book I've read on this topic.

In fact, Grudem has written a brief article online that summarises his biblical view on the gift of prophecy. 'Why Christians can still prophesy'.

I've written a brief article on this issue: The gift of prophecy as non-binding revelation.

Oz

 

[Radagast]

I've written a brief article on this issue: The gift of prophecy as non-binding revelation.

So perhaps you can explain to me: how can a revelation from God be false (as most modern "prophecies" seem to be in practice)?

I really can't get my head around Grudem's concept of unreliable yet somehow "from God" non-apostolic NT prophecy.

 

[GirdYourLoins]

I certainly believe God still uses the gift of prophecy and have had a couple of times I have had clear prophetic word. One for a church which had been closed for a couple of years but God gave me a clear message to pray for the church and prophecy that it would have new life where there was just an empty building about to be sold. I now go to that church.

For those who are cessationalists, what do you make of 1 Corinthians 14:1, "Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy." (from NIV translation)? I think its a clear instruction to all believers including now to desire the gifts and you need to use the gifts as they are given.

 

[Waggles]

What is the Gift of Prophecy, and has it ceased?
Is it to be used in churches today?

Read 1 Corinthians
YES all nine gifts of the Holy Spirit are distributed to the saints within a properly
disciplined Pentecostal Church that is obedient to the scriptures.

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 1Corinthians 12:4
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge
by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:8
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits;
to another diverse kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Cor12:10
But all these work that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
1Cor 12:11

At our [The Revival Fellowship] formal meetings on Sundays and Wednesday nights we
operate the three voice gifts of the Holy Spirit:
diversities of tongues followed by interpretation;
up to max of three gifts of prophecy

all done decently and in order.

 

[OzSpen]

So perhaps you can explain to me: how can a revelation from God be false (as most modern "prophecies" seem to be in practice)?

I really can't get my head around Grudem's concept of unreliable yet somehow "from God" non-apostolic NT prophecy.

Radagast,

What causes you to state that a revelation from God is false, as practised in prophecies in contemporary churches?

We do know that there are false prophets in churches. Jesus predicted that would be so. Remember the warning Jesus gave in Matt 7:15 (NIV): 'Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves'.

What will happen as Jesus' second coming approaches?: 'For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect' (Matt 24:24 NIV).

What should accompany the gift of prophecy? Paul told the Corinthians:

29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people (1 Cor 14:29-33 NIV).​

This is what I do not see very often in Pentecostal-charismatic churches, the gift of discernment used as others with that gift 'weigh carefully' the words of prophecy given to see if it agrees with or contradicts Scripture, is internally inconsistent, promotes mysticism, etc. However, Paul clearly promoted the gift of prophecy:

Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified (1 Cor 14:1-4 NIV).​

This is what Wayne Grudem stated in his Systematic Theology (Zondervan 1994). Concerning the gift of “revelation”, Grudem explains that

“a spontaneous ‘revelation’ made prophecy different from other gifts. If prophecy does not contain God’s very words, then what is it? In what sense is it from God?

Paul indicates that God could bring something spontaneously to mind so that the person prophesying would report it in his or her own words. Paul calls this a ‘revelation’: ‘If a revelation is made to another sitting by, let the first be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged’ (1 Cor.14:30-31). Here he uses the word revelation in a broader sense than the technical way theologians have used it to speak of the words of Scripture—but the New Testament elsewhere uses the terms reveal and revelation in this broader sense of communication from God that does not result in written Scripture or words equal to written Scripture in authority (see Phil. 3:15; Rom. 1:18; Eph. 1:17; Matt. 11:27).

Paul is simply referring to something that God may suddenly bring to mind, or something that God may impress on someone’s consciousness in such a way that the person has a sense that it is from God. . . .

Thus, if a stranger comes in and all prophesy, ‘the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you’ (1 Cor. 14:25). I heard of a report of this happening in a clearly non-charismatic Baptist church in America. A missionary speaker paused in the middle of his message and said something like: ‘I didn’t plan to say this, but it seems the Lord is indicating that someone in this church has just walked out on his wife and family. If that is so, let me tell you that God wants you to return to them and learn to follow God’s pattern of family life.’ The missionary did not know it, but in the unlit balcony sat a man who had entered the church moments before for the first time in his life. The description fitted him exactly, and he made himself known, acknowledged his sin, and began to seek after God.

In this way, prophesy serves as a ‘sign’ for believers (1 Cor. 14:22)—it is a clear demonstration that God is definitely at work in their midst, a ‘sign’ of God’s hand of blessing on the congregation. And since it will work for the conversion of unbelievers as well, Paul encourages this gift to be used when ‘unbelievers or outsiders enter’ (1 cor. 14:23)” (Grudem 1994:1056-1057).
​

Oz

​

 

[Waggles]

@PrettyboyAndy

THE REVIVAL FELLOWSHIP, FRESNO | The truth with Proof

 

[Radagast]

What causes you to state that a revelation from God is false, as practised in prophecies in contemporary churches?

It is an empirical fact that many prophecies given in contemporary churches are false. MacArthur lists examples in his book Strange Fire. Even John Piper, a Continuationist, gives examples (including an incorrect, and rather distressing, prophecy that his wife would die in childbirth).

We do know that there are false prophets in churches. Jesus predicted that would be so. Remember the warning Jesus gave in Matt 7:15 (NIV): 'Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves'.

I agree. That reflects the distinction in Deuteronomy between true prophets (who are correct) and false prophets (who are not). But if you take that approach, it's incumbent on Continuationists like yourself to demonstrate that true prophets actually exist today. Can you point at even one?

Taking a different tack, Grudem argues that the false prophecies do not come from false prophets, but that ordinary non-Apostolic New Testament prophecy is inherently unreliable, and often wrong (in spite of being from God). In Grudem's words, "prophecy in ordinary New Testament churches was not equal to Scripture in authority but was simply a very human – and sometimes partially mistaken – report of something the Holy Spirit brought to someone’s mind." It's that that I cannot get my head around. I don't believe that God sends people false messages.

This is what Wayne Grudem stated in his Systematic Theology (Zondervan 1994).

Now I'm confused. Do you take the Grudem approach or not?

 

[Senkaku]

@GingerBeer ok, so you are quoting apocrypha. by this example, are you saying that prophecy is something that MUST be written down to qualify as prophecy?

 

[swordsman1]

Here are a couple of articles that show that Grudem is wrong in his theory that the gift of prophecy continues today.

Fallible New Testament Prophecy/Prophets: A critique of Wayne Grudem's hypothesis
by F. David Farnell, Professor of New Testament at The Master's Seminary, California.

The Continuation of New Testament Prophecy and a Closed Canon: A Critique of Wayne Grudem’s Two Levels of New Testament Prophecy
by R. Bruce Compton, Professor of Biblical Languages and Exposition at Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary

 

[Radagast]

Here are a couple of articles that show that Grudem is wrong in his theory that the gift of prophecy continues today.

Fallible New Testament Prophecy/Prophets: A critique of Wayne Grudem's hypothesis
by F. David Farnell, Professor of New Testament at The Master's Seminary, California.

The Continuation of New Testament Prophecy and a Closed Canon: A Critique of Wayne Grudem’s Two Levels of New Testament Prophecy
by R. Bruce Compton, Professor of Biblical Languages and Exposition at Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary

Those seem quite convincing to me.

 

[GingerBeer]

@GingerBeer ok, so you are quoting apocrypha. by this example, are you saying that prophecy is something that MUST be written down to qualify as prophecy?

No.

 

[Senkaku]

@GingerBeer ok, so, by that answer, are you implying that prophecy can happen without it being written down? in other words, that spoken prophecy is still qualified as prophecy?

 

[GingerBeer]

@GingerBeer ok, so, by that answer, are you implying that prophecy can happen without it being written down? in other words, that spoken prophecy is still qualified as prophecy?

I can see that you're labouring the point but I do not see why you are bothering. I've stated what I think.

I think that yes, the gift of prophecy gone. There are no prophets speaking "The word of the LORD" in any church now. No new revelations from God. But a lot of people claiming to be prophets and seers and apostles and who knows what else. Just keep in mind that many false prophets are gone out into the world. (1 John 4:1).

 

[Senkaku]

@GingerBeer thats great and all, but you do realize that that passage is speaking about FALSE prophets, right? which implies that there are true ones. if prophecy is only to be written down, then why do we have instructions on prophecy if we aren't charged to write these things down? it makes no sense for the bible to encourage us to do something that we CAN NOT do or even have access to. I'm not sure you are getting my point yet. to me, it's clear that prophecy, in scripture, has different forms or applications other than just being used to write scripture, you feel me?

 

[GingerBeer]

@GingerBeer thats great and all, but you do realize that that passage is speaking about FALSE prophets, right? which implies that there are true ones. ...

It does not imply that there are true prophets today. It implies that there may have been true prophets when John wrote his letter. John was an apostle of Christ and hence also a prophet of God.

 

[Senkaku]

@GingerBeer John was not labeled a prophet in scripture, so are you saying that you can be a prophet without being labeled that? if so, what are the qualifications and why are some labeled prophets in scripture and others are not? is it ok for us to label someone as a prophet when scripture does not? don't take this the wrong way, i'm just trying to understand your position better.

 

[Francis Drake]

Well you got that wrong. The false teachers who created "Thousands of pieces" are the false prophets of their denominations. Their goal was to attract followers and it worked. Remember the warning do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Are you serious?
The use of prophetic gifts were banned, often on pain of death, by many churches until quite recently!

It is an oxymoron to claim that these splits were created by false prophets, when their very leaders condemned the gift of prophecy!

It is a historical fact that most denominational splits came from variations in teaching, not prophecy.

This point can be demonstrated quite easily by looking at the cessationist members of this forum.
Obviously the cessationists here, are not one single denomination but consist of many different denominational splits.
Now those very denominational splits present the cessationists with a serious problem. Being cessationists, they have no choice but to admit that their denominational splits were started and led by teachers, not prophets as you claim Ginger!

Obviously there are a few erroneous sects that have been started by self proclaimed prophets. I have no argument with that fact of history.

 

[Blade]

Today this is really .. yeah today its forth telling.. in the OT it was foretelling. Its not telling the future. If someone was saying something to me from God.. I would already know in me.. so it would witness in my heart. Its to edify exhortation and comfort..alone with tongues and interpretation.

That which is perfect... see this perfect LOVE do we? A key word..when. Satan is still out there.. pain suffering all kinds of evil. To make it simple..something was BORN.. started.. that which was promised. And we should know that anything the Father starts always grows.. never can die. Everything the Father does is LIFE..everything He made is alive. Jesus said.. if you make these people hush.. then even the rocks will cry out. God told Israel..if you do the same sins as those other nations. the earth will spit you out..

See.. JESUS IS REAL! Its not what MAN says. We can always find those that say .. Its ALL for today. Others some is for today.. others its all gone. WHO will you follow? Is JESUS who He said it was? If this JESUS only spoke what the Father said.. if HE can not ever lie.. then ask HIM. And as you do with John 3:16.. do the same for the rest. Hes your FATHER. Me? I listen to what others say. But in the end.. I will only stand.. believe HIS word. Its His spirit in me.. that I asked for Father for.. that leads and guilds me into ALL truth. JESUS IS REAL! Pray seek ASK HIM! He will ALWAYS back up what HE says by HIS word. So you KNOW its Him..