Question about Gift of Prophecy

GingerBeer

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So you have visited every church and heard every prophecy given and can show that they are all false?

God has. God is in every place and at every time. God says they are a bunch of fakes. These false prophets make predictions that do not come true (Deuteronomy 18:20-22). They make claims that are self serving and wicked (Ezekiel 13:4-11). They preach about the necessity of tithing because they want more money. Many of them preach "prosperity" to excuse their flagrant display of the wealth they get from their people (1 John 2:16). They are fundamentally wicked men fooling others by making stupid applications of snippets from scripture "touch not the Lord's anointed" after saying that they have "the anointing". The claim that they never disrespect other "ministries" and then preach long diatribes against "traditional church" and against "Catholicism" or some other bogyman of their choosing. They are evil men manipulating duplicitous and foolish followers.

Unless you have your claim "no real prophets" is a figment of your overactive imagination.
 
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OzSpen

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It doesn't say those unnamed apostles were any different from the other apostles. No doubt Barnabas was one of those unnamed apostles, but he was put on a par with Paul (Acts 14:14, 1 Cor 9:5-6 ). One of their essential qualification was they were all eye-witnesses of the risen Lord Jesus, of whom Paul said he was the last. So how can there be any further apostles after Paul? Why wasn't the apostle James replaced like Judas was, when he was killed in Acts 12:1-2?

swords,

Your presuppositions are coming through.
  1. 'It doesn't say those unnamed apostles were any different from the other apostles'. Nothing in the text says they were foundational apostles who saw the risen Christ.
  2. 'No doubt Barnabas was one of those unnamed apostles, but he was put on a par with Paul'. What you say about Barnabas as one of the unnamed apostles is an invention, an argument from silence that amounts to eisegesis.
  3. 'Paul said he was the last. So how can there be any further apostles after Paul?' 1 Cor 4:9 (KJV) states: 'For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men'. The NIV translates as: 'For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like those condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to human beings'.
Is there any consequence for the KJV's 'last' vs the NIV's, 'at the end of the procession'?

In Greek, the word "us" is in direct apposition to the word "apostles" - that is, the "us" are the same as the apostles. Paul may be referring to the twelve apostles, but is more likely using the Greek word "apostolos" to mean "messenger / sent one", as it usually does. In this sense of the word, Paul, Silas, and Timothy were all "apostles", in the same sense as the same word is used in 2 Cor 8:23, "And as for our brothers, they are messengers of the churches, the glory of Christ."

The word translated "last" means pretty much the same as the English word "last": it can refer to a low rank/position, or being the final in a series (in time/space) (BDAG). Here most translations rightly understand it to mean last in rank, as the context makes abundantly clear: "We both hunger and thirst, and are poorly clothed, beaten, homeless" (v10).

In summary: Paul is not talking about the apostolic gift of the twelve, but rather using the word "apostle" in a more generic sense. Moreover, "last" refers to a lowly state, not chronological finality. This verse therefore has no implications upon whether or not the apostolic gift ended with the twelve (source).​

I place church-planting missionaries in foreign cultures in the category of contemporary apostoloi (apostles, messengers, sent ones).

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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God has. God is in every place and at every time. God says they are a bunch of fakes.

The ones who prophesy in contemporary churches are a bunch of fakes, according to God???

Where does he state that it applies 'in every place and at every time'?

Oz
 
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Episaw

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God has. God is in every place and at every time. God says they are a bunch of fakes. These false prophets make predictions that do not come true (Deuteronomy 18:20-22). They make claims that are self serving and wicked (Ezekiel 13:4-11). They preach about the necessity of tithing because they want more money. Many of them preach "prosperity" to excuse their flagrant display of the wealth they get from their people (1 John 2:16). They are fundamentally wicked men fooling others by making stupid applications of snippets from scripture "touch not the Lord's anointed" after saying that they have "the anointing". The claim that they never disrespect other "ministries" and then preach long diatribes against "traditional church" and against "Catholicism" or some other bogyman of their choosing. They are evil men manipulating duplicitous and foolish followers.

So you are God's mouthpiece and know what he thinks?

That sounds a bit like one claiming to be a prophet which you have called false prophets so I guess you are just another false prophet.

1 Jn 2:16 because all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Forgive me but I cannot see the word PROPHET anywhere in this verse.

Your comment overall suggests you might be one of those evil men manipulating duplicitous and foolish followers as you seem to clutch at straws to justify your false teaching.
 
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Episaw

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Via,

Please show us that is true from the Bible.

Oz
Preaching and prophecy are spoken of differently and it uses different Greek word for both.

Prophecy is listed as one of the nine gifts of the Spirit, preaching is not.
 
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GingerBeer

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The ones who prophesy in contemporary churches are a bunch of fakes, according to God???

Where does he state that it applies 'in every place and at every time'?

Oz
God says it in Deuteronomy. Didn't you read the passages I cited?
 
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LostMarbels

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It doesn't say being face to face "before God" in 1 Cor 13:12. Seeing 'face to face' is referring to the analogy of a mirror. Before 'completeness' came prophecies were like looking at someone in a dim mirror - they only provided a partial picture of God's revelation to man. But afterwards the replacement would be like seeing someone 'face to face' - we would see God's revelation to man in a far clearer and complete way.

I agree, to the point of things are not yet seen clearly.

So when will man be complete? Perfect and without sins that they can see clearly?

But we don't call ambassadors 'apostles', we call them ambassadors. The word 'apostle' in the New Testament was used as a technical term for a first century, divinely appointed, eye witness of Christ's resurrection, miracle working, authoritative, apostle. If the bible scholars who interpret our bibles saw this word as being an ambassador or a missionary in Eph 2:20 or Eph 4:11 they would have used those words, not the word we commonly associate with the twelve, Paul and a possibly a handful of others.


Out of the 88 times the word 'apostle' appears in the NT it is used in this sense in all of them (apart from once where it refers to Christ in Heb 3:1)

There are 2 different types of apostles, those who are sent to preach the gospel as ambassadors.

ap-os-tel'-lo
From G575 and G4724; set apart, that is, (by implication) to send out (properly on a mission) literally or figuratively: - put in, send (away, forth, out), set [at liberty].
Total KJV occurrences: 133

And the Official calling, or office of an apostle.

apostolos
ap-os'-tol-os
From G649; a delegate; specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (“apostle”), (with miraculous powers): - apostle, messenger, he that is sent.
Total KJV occurrences: 81

There is a biblical delineation between apostles that go into all corners of the world preaching the gospel, and the 12 apostles that worked miracles. This is akin to being called to be a pastor or a priest, as related to being the High Preist of God. Being high priest is an official office directly commissioned by God, as were the 12 Apostles.
 
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OzSpen

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Preaching and prophecy are spoken of differently and it uses different Greek word for both.

Prophecy is listed as one of the nine gifts of the Spirit, preaching is not.

Epi,

I know. I'm a Greek teacher and read NT Greek. But we still need to isolate the differences between kérussó (I preach, proclaim), didaskó (I teach), and prophéteuó (I prophesy).

Eph 4:9-11 (NIV) states: 'So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up'.

The ministry gifts of Christ include these 5 gifts, although 'pastor-teachers' is permissibie according to the Greek grammar, thus reducing it to 4 gifts.

So the pastor-teacher is listed as one of the ministry gifts of Christ to the church for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry. Are you suggesting that a ministry gift of Christ is of less value than a gift of the Holy Spirit?

See 'Preaching and the gifts of the Spirit'.

Oz

P.S. It's a lovely, clear, sunny day where I live in northern Brissy. Predicted max of 29C.
 
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OzSpen

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God says it in Deuteronomy. Didn't you read the passages I cited?

OT prophecy (e.g. Deut) is not the same as NT prophecy (e.g. 1 Cor 12-14; Rom 12:6), as we have discussed in this thread.
 
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LostMarbels

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swords,

Your presuppositions are coming through.
  1. 'It doesn't say those unnamed apostles were any different from the other apostles'. Nothing in the text says they were foundational apostles who saw the risen Christ.
  2. 'No doubt Barnabas was one of those unnamed apostles, but he was put on a par with Paul'. What you say about Barnabas as one of the unnamed apostles is an invention, an argument from silence that amounts to eisegesis.
  3. 'Paul said he was the last. So how can there be any further apostles after Paul?' 1 Cor 4:9 (KJV) states: 'For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men'. The NIV translates as: 'For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like those condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to human beings'.
Is there any consequence for the KJV's 'last' vs the NIV's, 'at the end of the procession'?

In Greek, the word "us" is in direct apposition to the word "apostles" - that is, the "us" are the same as the apostles. Paul may be referring to the twelve apostles, but is more likely using the Greek word "apostolos" to mean "messenger / sent one", as it usually does. In this sense of the word, Paul, Silas, and Timothy were all "apostles", in the same sense as the same word is used in 2 Cor 8:23, "And as for our brothers, they are messengers of the churches, the glory of Christ."

The word translated "last" means pretty much the same as the English word "last": it can refer to a low rank/position, or being the final in a series (in time/space) (BDAG). Here most translations rightly understand it to mean last in rank, as the context makes abundantly clear: "We both hunger and thirst, and are poorly clothed, beaten, homeless" (v10).

In summary: Paul is not talking about the apostolic gift of the twelve, but rather using the word "apostle" in a more generic sense. Moreover, "last" refers to a lowly state, not chronological finality. This verse therefore has no implications upon whether or not the apostolic gift ended with the twelve (source).​

I place church-planting missionaries in foreign cultures in the category of contemporary apostoloi (apostles, messengers, sent ones).

Oz

Nice post. I never really viewed this passage in the light you presented. Your interpretation ties in perfectly with Pauls attitude of self-debasement.

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

(Eph 3:8) Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
 
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JAL

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Ok. Here's the 1st commentary on Eph 2:20. Apologies where my OCR software has messed up the Greek words. I've highlighted the parts relevant to our discussion.

Ephesians: An Exegetical Commentary (2002)
By Harold W. Hoehner

Commentary: 2:20. έποικοδομηθέντες επί τώ θεμελίω, "having been built on the foundation." Paul makes a transition in his metaphor from those who belong to a household (oikeios) in verse 19 to that of a building in which the Spirit of God dwells (eitol Ko&oumbévites . . . οικοδομή . . . συνοικοδομείσθε. . . κατοικητήριον) in Verses 20-22. The aorist passive participle èTolkoöoun0évteg may signify a temporal idea, indicating that the readers of this letter have already built on the foundation at the time of their conversion, or, more likely, it may denote cause, namely, the reason we are fellow citizens with the saints and members of God's household is because we have been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets. The passive emphasizes that we who are in one body are recipients of the action. God is the subject of the building. The following preposition éIt with the accusative would imply motion (1 Cor 3:12; Rom 15:20) but with the genitive or dative, as here, it denotes place - "on" or "upon" which the structure is built. The word beuélo, means "foundation," which speaks of the beginnings of something that is coming into being, a term that is synonymous to KatoBoxń in 1:4. The nature of the foundation is explained next.

töv diroo to cov kori repoontów, "of the apostles and prophets." Five items need to be considered. First, there is only one article for both nouns. This "does not necessarily identify the Apostles and Prophets as one and the same persons," but the one article may indicate that "groups more or less distinct are treated as one for the purpose in hand."

Second, the genitives have been interpreted in various ways. (1) Some think they are possessive genitives: "the apostles' and prophets foundation." But Ellicott has pointed out that this would mix up the Beué)tos, "foundation" and cKpoyovicios, "cornerstone." It states that the foundation belongs to the apostles and yet, on the other hand, Christ is the cornerstone, the main stone of the foundation. Therefore, Christ belongs to the apostles! (2) Others see these as subjective genitives or genitives of agency or originating cause: "the foundation laid by the apostles and prophets." This refers to doctrine preached by the apostles and prophets with Christ as the cornerstone of that doctrine. Those who propound this use of the genitive suggest that two passages support this view: 1 Cor 3:10-11, where Paul, as a wise architect, laid the foundation which is Christ; and Rom 15:20, where Paul specifically states that he will not build on another person's foundation. However, there are some problems with this view. First, it makes Christ both the foundation and the cornerstone. If the foundation is the apostolic doctrine about Christ, what is the content of the cornerstone's teaching? It would appear to be the same teaching, making Christ redundant as the cornerstone." Also, to make Christ personal, as Ellicott does, seems to be inconsistent and confusing with the nonpersonal (teaching). Second, the parallel passages mentioned above do not support this view of the genitive. The first parallel passage is 1 Cor 3:10-11, which states that each believer builds his or her works on the foundation of Christ. However, in the present context there is nothing about building works on the foundation. The second parallel text is Rom 15:20 where Paul states that he will not build on another person's foundation. But this text refers to the establishment of new local churches, whereas in the present context Paul is not speaking about the foundation of a local church. Aside from this, if one uses Rom 15:20 as a text to support the view that the foundation is the doctrine taught by the apostles and prophets, then why would not Paul want to build on it? Did he have a different doctrine? Third, in 1 Cor 3:10-11 Paul specifically states that he laid (temko) the foundation, whereas in Ephesians he does not. Ultimately, the interpretation of one passage cannot be imposed on another, especially when they are not addressing the same issue. (3) Still other interpreters regard these as genitives of apposition: "the foundation consisting of the apostles and prophets." This view is the most consistent. First, the imagery depicted in the present context is that Christ, as a person (or Toi Xplo to Troot - Christ Jesus himself and not Christ's own teaching), is the cornerstone, the apostles and prophets, as persons, are the foundation, and the saints, as persons, are the building. Second, this coincides with 4:11 and more specifically 1 Cor 12:28 which states, "God placed or appointed (see to) in the church first apostles, second prophets, ..." as foundations for ministry. Third, the aorist rather than a present passive participle is used to indicate a summarizing aspect normally referring to past time (aorist participles usually indicate antecedent time to that of the main verb) rather than a repeated action. If it were talking about the doctrine on which the church is built, then there ought to be a present or perhaps a perfect tense to indicate a repeated action representing a continuing effect of the teaching throughout the readers' lives and throughout the centuries of the church. However, if it is referring to persons, it is fitting for the aorist to be used to indicate past time of the apostles and prophets as that first foundation. Fourth, this view corresponds well with Rev 21:14 where the twelve apostles, along with the twelve tribes of Israel, are the foundations of the new city of Jerusalem. In the end, it seems best to view these genitives as appositional, indicating that the apostles and prophets are the historic persons who first formed the universal church. The relationship of this concept to Christ as the cornerstone will be discussed below.

The third thing to be considered is the identity of the apostles and prophets. Since the term "apostle" was discussed in greater detail at 1:1, only a brief discussion is in order here. An apostle is one who is sent out on a mission with fully delegated authority by his master Jesus Christ, as the original disciples whom Jesus selected were sent out to minister (cf. also 4:11). Three kinds of apostles in the NT have been mentioned: those who had been with Jesus in his ministry and had witnessed his resurrection (Acts 1:21–22), Paul who was born out of season (1 Cor 15:8-9), and those who received the gift of apostleship as mentioned in 4:11. The first two categories are to be regarded as offices, whereas the last as a spiritual gift to the church. In the present context Paul is most likely referring to all three categories. Regarding who and what function they had, it was concluded in the study in 1:1 that an apostle was an official delegate of Jesus Christ, commissioned for the specific tasks of proclaiming authoritatively the message in oral and written form and establishing and building up churches. The prophets are listed along with other gifts to the church (1 Cor 12:28; Eph 4:11; cf. Rom 12:6). There is much debate on this subject and it is beyond the scope of this work to go into great detail. After a study of prophets, Forbes concludes that the prophets of the Hellenistic world were quite different from the prophets of early Christianity, and the more likely background for the term is to be found in the Septuagint and the Judaism of the synagogues. Briefly, it seems that the prophet is one who is endowed by the Holy Spirit with the gift of prophecy for the purpose of edification, comfort, and encouragement (1 Cor 14:3, 31), as well as for the purpose of understanding and communicating the mysteries and revelation of God to the church (12:10; 13:2; 14:6, 22, 30–31). As was true with the OT prophets, the NT prophetic gift also included a predictive element (1 Thess 3:4; 4:6, 14-18; Gal 5:21) that was not a part of the other gifts such as teaching. In the NT the prophet was not to be overcome by some uncontrolled estatic force, but he was to control himself when he received revelation (1 Cor 14:29-32; Rev. 1:9-11). In light of an incomplete canon, the prophets may well have received revelation to complete what was needed so that every person could be presented perfect before God (Eph 4:12; Col 1:28). In conclusion, it seems that both the apostle and the prophet were involved in revelation.

In many ways the NT apostle, including the apostle Paul (1 Cor 13:9; 14:6)," functioned much like an OT prophet. However, Grudem takes this a bit further when he proposes that the apostles rather than the NT prophets correspond more closely with the OT prophets. He claims that OT prophets and NT apostles spoke with divine authority, whereas NT prophets, who were not apostles, did not prophesy with absolute divine
authority, and their prophecy could even be in partial error (e.g., errors in Agabus' prophecy Acts 21:10–11)). The problem with Grudem's view is threefold. First, it would be more natural that OT prophets correspond with NT prophets than with apostles. The recipients of this epistle would likely make this correspondence. This would be a consistent use of "prophet" throughout the Bible, whereas "apostles" are distinct though they may have overlapping functions. Further elaboration regarding the identity of NT prophets and apostles is given below. Second, Grudem's bifurcation of the NT prophets into two groups: (1) those who were also apostles and spoke with absolute authority, as did OT prophets or Scripture; and (2) those who were not also apostles whose words, although not absolutely authoritative, were for encouragement has no tenable basis in the NT. Third, it seems strange that Christ would give the prophetic gift which lacked authority and, in fact, could be in error. In the OT anyone who gave nonauthoritative prophecy was considered a false prophet (Deut 13). In the NT prophets were to be tested: if true, then their words would be deemed authoritative; if not true they were considered false prophets (1 Cor 14:29-31; 2 Pet 2; 1 John 4:1; Jude 11-16). Thus, it is best to consider that there were overlapping functions with reference to NT prophets and apostles, much like many ministries today. However, each had a different emphasis. The emphasis for the apostle was more of the divine commission to a specific task; for the prophet, however, it was the communication of divine revelation.


The fourth thing to be considered is the relationship between the apostles and prophets. Grudem lists four ways in which they are related to each other: (1) the teachings of apostles and prophets; (2) apostles who are also prophets; (3) apostles and OT prophets; and (4) apostles and NT prophets. View (1) refers not to the apostles and prophets themselves but to their teaching, and this is incongruent with the present context since it speaks of persons and not teaching. Grudem rightly assesses that this view may be tenable for 1 Cor 3:1015 but inappropriate for the present context. View (2), favored by Grudem, proposes that rather than two groups (NT apostles and NT prophets), it is one group (NT apostle-prophets). He argues that this is possible grammatically since there is only one article for both nouns, but as pointed out above, that does not necessarily make them one and the same. In fact, Wallace remarks that to make them one and the same would be suspect because there is no other example in the NT where two nouns (in a noun + noun construction) refer to two identical groups. Furthermore, in the NT there is no indication that an apostle is necessarily a prophet or vice versa. Certainly, when Paul instructs the Corinthians regarding the conduct of the prophets, there is no indication that they were apostles (1 Cor 14:29–32). If these prophets were apostles, then Paul is instructing apostles how to conduct themselves! In addition when Paul lists the gifts in Eph 4:11, he mentions that there are "some apostles and some prophets," indicating that these are two different groups as opposed to "some apostles and prophets," indicating that they are one and the same. Thus option (2) is not convincing. View (3) suggests that this refers to apostles and OT prophets but it is problematic for the following reasons. First, the order is wrong, for if he meant OT prophets, it would have been logical to list them first. Second, the same order, first apostles and then prophets, is given when Paul lists the various gifted individuals who are to benefit the church (4:11; cf. 1 Cor 12:28, 29). Third, in the context Paul states that before Christ there was a great gulf between Jews and Gentiles, but by Jesus' death God created a new person called the church and made the law inoperative. Hence, if this refers to the OT prophets it confuses the issue, for it implicates an OT institution with an entirely new entity, thus blurring the distinction Paul is making. Fourth, in Eph 3:5 Paul speaks of the mystery (i.e., the church = believing Jews and believing Gentiles in one body) which was hidden in former generations but is now revealed to "his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit." Certainly, this statement makes it clear that the prophets were contemporaries with the apostles, both receiving from the same Spirit the revelation of the former hidden mystery.' Fifth, it negates the metaphor of Christ as the cornerstone in relationship to the rest of the foundation. The cornerstone is the first stone laid in a building to be followed by the foundation. If this refers to OT prophets, it would imply that they were a part of the foundation before the cornerstone was laid. View (4) proposes that these are apostles and NT prophets. This is the most plausible view for the following reasons. First, the order of apostles before prophets suggests it. Second, the present context discusses God's creation of the "new person" (v. 15), that is, the church, and this is completely distinct from the old order where the law caused hostility between Jews and Gentiles. Now with the law inoperative, the new person is built, not on prophets from the old order, but on the apostles and prophets of the new order. Third, the mystery of believing Jews and Gentiles incorporated into one body was hidden to former generations, which would include the OT prophets, but now is revealed to Christs holy apostles and prophets (3:5). The words in 3:5 are listed in the same order as the present verse, that is, apostles before the prophets. Fourth, Eph 4:11 states that the apostles and prophets were given to the church as foundational gifted people who were to prepare saints for ministry and to build up this new body, the church. Again, the apostles are mentioned before prophets in 4:11 as in the present verse. Also, since the apostles and prophets are given for the effective function of the new order, it is inconceivable that these refer to OT prophets. Fifth, since in this metaphor Christ is the cornerstone in the context of his suffering, the first stone of the foundation, it must refer to NT prophets who are a part of the foundation of this new work called the church. In conclusion then, the prophets mentioned here must be NT prophets who form the foundation along with the apostles.

The fifth item to be considered is the makeup of the foundation. In 1 Cor 3:11 Jesus Christ is the foundation, whereas in the present verse the apostles and prophets are the foundation. This is not an insurmountable problem and can be answered in several different ways. First, it is not unreasonable for Paul to use a building metaphor "in two different ways for two different purposes." Second, it is possible that the apostles who laid the foundations (1 Cor 3:10; Rom 15:2) thought of themselves as the foundation stones." Third, this may be a development of Pauline thought, that is, though earlier Christ is portrayed as the foundation, later he is portrayed as the cornerstone, the most important stone of the foundation and the building as a whole (see the following comments). This is analogous to the development of Christ's relationship with the church. In the earlier letters the church is the body of Christ (Rom 12:4-5; 1 Cor 12:12-13, 27), whereas in the later letters Christ is the head of the body (Eph 1:2223; 4:15-16; 5:23; Col 1:18, 24; 2:19). In the present context the church's foundation consists of apostles and prophets and the main stone of the foundation is the cornerstone, Christ himself. Thus, this passage is not in contradiction to 1 Cor 3: 1 1 but is a complement, a fuller development of thought.

όντος άκρογωνιαίου αυτού Χριστου Ιησού, "Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone." This is a genitive absolute, which means that it has "no syntactical connection with any part of the sentence." It does connect to the idea of a foundation of apostles and prophets by giving further information about the foundation's construction, namely, that Christ Jesus is the cornerstone. The meaning of word (Kpoyovicios has been greatly debated. The word does not occur in classical literature but is found in the LXX only in Isa 28:16 where it translates E. It has the basic meaning of "corner," as the corner of a street (Prov 7:8, 12), corner of a roof (Prov 21:9; 25:24), corner of a house (Job 1:19), corner of an altar (Exod 27:2; 38:2), and corner of a city wall (Neh 3:24, 31), but in the Isaiah context it most likely means "cornerstone" (cf. 1 QS 8:7; 4Q259 2:16). Besides the present context, this word occurs in the NT only in 1 Pet 2:6, which is a quotation of Isa 28:16. The older commentators have rendered it "cornerstone," but because of a proposal by Jeremias that it should be rendered "capstone, topstone," some recent commentators have followed suit. Jeremias' main support for his theory is the apocryphal work Testament of Solonzo! (22:7-23:4) which speaks about the stone at the top of a gateway to the temple. Further attestation that the word di Kpoyovicios means "topstone" can be found in two places in the OT translation by Symmachus. One of these is 2 Kgs 25:17 where it is translated three times from , meaning "capital" of a column, which the LXX does not translate but transliterates (goBop). The other occurrence is in Ps 118:22 [ LXX 1 17:22] from te vix 7 and is translated literally in the LXX as Keoohv Yovics meaning "head of a corner." Its application in the present context would be that the apostles and prophets are the foundation and Christ is the capstone of the church, similar to another metaphor where he is the head of the body.

You cited a commentator supporting your view of Eph 2:20. My reaction:
(1) I don't see where he addresses my objection raised in post #311. Even if he's right that apostles and prophets are the foundation, we need such foundation today. I'm not going to waver on this point.
(2) He objects that Christ shouldn't function as both foundation and chief cornerstone. However, he needs to take a hard look at Psalm 18:2 where Christ plays about six different roles, "The Lord is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer...my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold." Furthermore he's putting too much weight on the term cornerstone acknowledged to be rare and ambiguous in the literature.
(3) He objects to the possessive that, if the "foundation belongs to the apostles...[then Christ as] the main stone of the foundation...belongs to the apostles!" I'm not sure why he thinks this objection is devastating. After all, it's just a metaphor. Anyway I personally don't vote for the possessive but rather for "the foundation laid by the apostles and prophets."
(4) Ultimately his exposition strikes me as fairly weak. Why so? He wants us to make three HUGE leaps.
(A) Overlook the problem I raised in post 311. That's already a deal-breaker for me.
(B) Embrace a cessationist view of apostles without a HINT of such in the text. Another deal-breaker.
(C) Embrace a definition of foundation at Eph 2:20 contrary to Paul's other instances of the term (Rom 15:20; 1Cor 3:10-12). He argues that the instances differ, focusing mostly on 1Cor 3:12 because, he thinks, a man cannot be both the building itself (i.e. a stone in the temple) AND a builder as well. He's wrong. Living stones (1Pet 2:5) CAN be builders.
 
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GingerBeer

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OT prophecy (e.g. Deut) is not the same as NT prophecy (e.g. 1 Cor 12-14; Rom 12:6), as we have discussed in this thread.
So you say. Nowhere in the bible does anybody write that "new testament prophecy is different from old testament prophecy". The very idea is absurd. It can only come from a desperate desire to justify modern day "prophets" whose predictions fail regularly and who are obviously money grubbing charlatans. Besides when people are prepared to degrade New testament prophecy to make room for error-prone prophecy they undermine the inspiration of the scriptures themselves since scripture is itself prophecy as Pater notes when he writes no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation. So it is a game with lose-lose result that is played by these false prophets and their apologists. Let the advocates turn away from it before it implicates them in the sins of the false prophets. Remember 1 John 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth;
 
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JAL

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You have created a strawman argument. We were not talking about charismatic "allusions", which you regard as anything miraculous that Jesus did. We are talking about the scriptures that refer to the charismatic gifts, you know prophecy, tongues etc, given to the Church and whether a new Christian reading the NT would conclude those gifts have ceased.
That's not a strawman argument. You're missing the force of the argument, which is, What are the biblical emphases? If God is a competent instructor, then Scripture should place emphasis on precisely those things that God wants us to prioritize. I demonstrated that the gospels place a HUGE emphasis on the prophetic gift. Let's test this thesis against Paul. What does PAUL want us to emphasize? "Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, ESPECIALLY the gift of prophecy" (1Cor 14:1). Essentially, for you, that verse doesn't even exist, you never really see it due to cessationist blinders. Nor do you see the gospel emphases, because the cessationist hermeneutic has led you to regard the gospels and Acts as devoid of didactic value. Strikes me as odd that a church tasked with evangelizing the whole planet is not supposed to look to Acts to find useful advice on how to accomplish it.
 
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OzSpen

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God says it in Deuteronomy. Didn't you read the passages I cited?

Bundy GingerBeer,

I most certainly read the passage. We live under the New Covenant, not the Old Covenant and NT rules regarding prophecy are markedly different from 'thus saith the Lord' of an OT prophet.

What do you notice are the differences between the OT prophecy of, say, Deut 18:20-22 (NIV) and the NT prophecy of 1 Cor 14:3 (NIV)?

Oz
 
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Episaw

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God says it in Deuteronomy. Didn't you read the passages I cited?
Yes but anyone can cite a verse. Even Satan does it but so often the case is it is taken out of context and is not relevant to the subject.

In this case, Deuteronomy is in the Old Testament. The New Testament Church practices are determined by what is in the New Testament.

it is a bit like those who push tithing they always quote Malachi 3:10.
 
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GingerBeer

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Bundy GingerBeer,

I most certainly read the passage. We live under the New Covenant, not the Old Covenant and NT rules regarding prophecy are markedly different from 'thus saith the Lord' of an OT prophet.

What do you notice are the differences between the OT prophecy of, say, Deut 18:20-22 (NIV) and the NT prophecy of 1 Cor 14:3 (NIV)?

Oz
Nowhere in the bible does anybody write that "new testament prophecy is different from old testament prophecy". The very idea is absurd. It can only come from a desperate desire to justify modern day "prophets" whose predictions fail regularly and who are obviously money grubbing charlatans. Besides when people are prepared to degrade New testament prophecy to make room for error-prone prophecy they undermine the inspiration of the scriptures themselves since scripture is itself prophecy as Pater notes when he writes no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation. So it is a game with lose-lose result that is played by these false prophets and their apologists. Let the advocates turn away from it before it implicates them in the sins of the false prophets. Remember 1 John 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth;
 
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