Question about Christianity

I'm not quite sure what he meant by that particular wording, but I wouldn't be surprised if his foundation rested upon the cliche idea that Christianity is the "opiate for the masses." That someone who is weak needs something to cling onto, (like the drug of Christianity), to rest upon like a crutch to make up for their inability to stand on their own two feet in independent strength. I've heard that thought process before quite a bit. What I've noticed is that those are some of the best people to form a relational ministry around - let them see that you're different than their attitudes based upon stereotype, and slowly they'll start to at least admit that their idea that Christianity as one's opiate isn't all inclusive of Christianity as a whole, (as the way you live in front of them will start to diminish their negative conclusions - because you'll prove to be different than the "Christians" he's experienced in his past)... then a dialog can ensue with greater depth in relation to Christ, as the seeds you plant by daily example start to grow and bloom within his searching heart.

A "prosthetic appendage" is an artificial limb. Heather Mills on "dancing with the Stars" has such an artificial limb. Yes, it is offensive, because it implies that Christains need to be artificially supported.

SonOfSophroniscus said:

It's offensive, but it's not true is it?

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Of course it's not true. The God we worship is far from artificial... His "support" is a living one, (in contrast to a dead plastic fake limb). I praise God every day that He's not like our idols or all of the other false gods out there; and yes it's true that we need Him, but it's because of who He is that I WANT Him!

SonOfSophroniscus said:

Hi, the other day I was talking with some people and one of them said that Christianity was a 'prothetic appendage', used only by those without the strength to support themselves. I don't know what he meant but it seemed quite offensive. What did he mean?

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Hi. If you were on the GA board, you would just let it go in one ear and out the other.

The Carnal Minded cannot grasp the Spiritual no matter how many ways you try to explain it to non-CHRIST-ians.
Here is a link on a similar thing you are talking about. Peace.

http://www.christianforums.com/t36218&page=2
Miracles--regrown limbs?

Yeah seebs, I didn't think about that! There's an easy way to win a hardcore skeptic to your side John, simply get some prayer going for me to grow a new kidney (I gave one of mine to a dying friend). If I grew a new kidney after discussing this with you I would have no choice but to believe.

SonOfSophroniscus said:

It's offensive, but it's not true is it?

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Yes, christianity is fast becoming an ethereal and superficial religion that seeks only to "experience" God, whether that be gnostically, contemplatively, through manifestations, or rote liturgies - all of which is an artificial "spirit" which leads to complete spiritual bankruptcy.

IamGodslittlegirl said:

Yes, christianity is fast becoming an ethereal and superficial religion that seeks only to "experience" God, whether that be gnostically, contemplatively, through manifestations, or rote liturgies - all of which is an artificial "spirit" which leads to complete spiritual bankruptcy.

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You're going off on Christianity's perversion through sinful man, but what about true Christianity; of which, many faithful servants are living daily? In relation to true Christianity, do you still believe that it's an "artificial limb"? And if not, why not?

LittleLambofJesus said:

Hi. If you were on the GA board, you would just let it go in one ear and out the other.

The Carnal Minded cannot grasp the Spiritual no matter how many ways you try to explain it to non-CHRIST-ians.
Here is a link on a similar thing you are talking about. Peace.

http://www.christianforums.com/t36218&page=2
Miracles--regrown limbs?

Yeah seebs, I didn't think about that! There's an easy way to win a hardcore skeptic to your side John, simply get some prayer going for me to grow a new kidney (I gave one of mine to a dying friend). If I grew a new kidney after discussing this with you I would have no choice but to believe.

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I am very curious - I believe that Jesus healed people fully ---- but could you like show me in Scripture where He or anyone else did regeneration of "new" body parts.

Thanx

IamGodslittlegirl said:

I am very curious - I believe that Jesus healed people fully ---- but could you like show me in Scripture where He or anyone else did regeneration of "new" body parts.

Thanx

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Nope. Just some of the ridiculous arguements atheists like to bring up to keep us CHRIST-ian on our toes. LOL.

Zeph 1:7 Be silent in the presence of 'Adonay Y@hovih ; For the day of YHWH [is] at hand, For YHWH has prepared a sacrifice [02077 zebach] ; He has invited His consecrated called. 8 "And it shall be, In the day of YHWH's sacrifice,

Rebirth In Flames said:

You're going off on Christianity's perversion through sinful man, but what about true Christianity; of which, many faithful servants are living daily? In relation to true Christianity, do you still believe that it's an "artificial limb"? And if not, why not?

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True believers and followers of Christ live by faith, not by sight, and by the simplicity that is in Christ

Jesus said that He is the Vine and we must remain in the Vine bringing forth good fruit or we would be cut off and cast into the fire. An artificial branch cannot bring forth good fruit.

Yes, christianity is fast becoming an ethereal and superficial religion that seeks only to "experience" God, whether that be gnostically, contemplatively, through manifestations, or rote liturgies - all of which is an artificial "spirit" which leads to complete spiritual bankruptcy.

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Your assertion that 'Christianity is fast becoming...' is really quite unfounded. Modern Christianity is not like old Christianity; that is to say, it is pluralistic. Christianity, in a word, is fast becoming everything, and is going off in every direction. And if your playing by statistics, well, those are unreliable. We still have no figures in from China, and few from africa, and even if the 'percentiles' of those you are conisdering 'true believers' are going down, the reality is that world population is booming so the actual number of 'good christians' is probably going up.

Just stuff to think about. Generalizing trends can be very dangerious. I wouldn't have agreed with 'christianity is fast becoming better' either, I can't agree that Christianity is really moving in any single direction.

Hi, the other day I was talking with some people and one of them said that Christianity was a 'prothetic appendage', used only by those without the strength to support themselves. I don't know what he meant but it seemed quite offensive. What did he mean?

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That person, whoever he is, was clearly not very intelligent. Now many Christians are unintelligent, and many people from other religions are quite intelligent, or even further advanced in virtue than many Christians. But this person is denying contingent fact. Christianity is a complicated world, which involves a third of the entire human race at this moment.

Some Christians, in reality, do use our religion as an artificial appendage. Very well, then! We would rather teach a man how to walk but if he won't have that, we believe in mercy too so we give him a walking stick. We do the same for the poor. For some, the chruch is an organization which teaches industry and employment. But for a few poor folks, all they are willing to accept is a bowl of soup. God's blessing be upon them, also!

You see, it is one of the devils great lies which he has always told the world, that Christianity is this or that. The true virtue of our religion stems from Christ himself, and his sacrifice, and his love which we feel and return to him in a relationship.

The devil tells the poor man: Christianity is for those rich men with time; but you know how the world really is.

He tells the rich man: It is for those wretched poor, to lie to them and keep them under control.

He tells the wise man: It is for those stupid enlaboured, to give them comfort with their labour.

He tells the dumb man: It is for those men who enjoy nothing but reading and talking... yes! That's all it is, reading and talking!

He tells the young man: It is for the old men, once they have passed the prime of their sexuality and pleasure-taking and gotten all boring and tired and afraid of dying.

He tells the old man: It is for those young men, with their silly idealism which stems from their lack of experience of the world.

These are only a few illustrations.

Honestly, I hate to sound like a puritan, but many great church writers have spoken on the importantce of keeping good company. This doesn't mean exclusively Christian company, mind you, but... if you aren't already this persons friend, I would advise that talking to him is probably against your benefit. If he can really believe such a thing about Christianity, I must believe that he is in some small insular world of his own and has not read many good books.

But that you should not seek his company... perhaps this is ill-tempered advice to recieve over the internet. Talk to someone you know better about this, and take anything I have said with not a grain, but with a pound of salt, for I am only so informedas to what is right for you or for him.

God bless you all.

LibraryOwl said:

Your assertion that 'Christianity is fast becoming...' is really quite unfounded. Modern Christianity is not like old Christianity; that is to say, it is pluralistic. Christianity, in a word, is fast becoming everything, and is going off in every direction. And if your playing by statistics, well, those are unreliable. We still have no figures in from China, and few from africa, and even if the 'percentiles' of those you are conisdering 'true believers' are going down, the reality is that world population is booming so the actual number of 'good christians' is probably going up.

Just stuff to think about. Generalizing trends can be very dangerious. I wouldn't have agreed with 'christianity is fast becoming better' either, I can't agree that Christianity is really moving in any single direction.
That person, whoever he is, was clearly not very intelligent. Now many Christians are unintelligent, and many people from other religions are quite intelligent, or even further advanced in virtue than many Christians. But this person is denying contingent fact. Christianity is a complicated world, which involves a third of the entire human race at this moment.

Some Christians, in reality, do use our religion as an artificial appendage. Very well, then! We would rather teach a man how to walk but if he won't have that, we believe in mercy too so we give him a walking stick. We do the same for the poor. For some, the chruch is an organization which teaches industry and employment. But for a few poor folks, all they are willing to accept is a bowl of soup. God's blessing be upon them, also!

You see, it is one of the devils great lies which he has always told the world, that Christianity is this or that. The true virtue of our religion stems from Christ himself, and his sacrifice, and his love which we feel and return to him in a relationship.


God bless you all.

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My assertion is correct. I have researched and seen what the net has to offer through tons of forums - which I think is a good cross section. Not to mention the dozens of churches I have been in and affiliated with and watched and heard. I have seen the trend up close and personal for about 11 years now - I spend my life searching and seeking and finding extremely disturbing information.

You are assuming that the third is Biblical christianity. It is simply religion to most.

As Jesus and the apostles prophesied, the church at large [organized religion] is going to crumble and fall.

Historical christianity, via organized religion, was never meant to promote the Gospel. It is a fallacy to think that she will not go down like the Titanic. That God used her in spite of the mess she has made, is His abundant grace and mercy.

This organized religion, as a whole, is preaching a contemplative ecumenical seeker friendly watered down experiential gnostic gospel, and is very quickly receding the line of whatever traditional christianity is left.

ps: you should check out your local christian bookstores - you will get quite an eye full. as the old business addage goes: supply and demand

I don't really know what much else to say about that. If thats what you belive, well, then, thats what you believe. But please, I only ask one thing.

I ask that, if you are condemning most of the chruch down the ages, that you condemn me also. For I should be so ashamed, even if I agreed with you on so many things, to sit around idly as if trying to avoid your blows... while you said such things about men and women I considered my ardent friends, who perhaps thought this about homosexuality or that about abortion...

And if you were saying that they have abandoned God, that God is angry with them, then surely I who have prayed and studied and laughed and eaten and taken communion with them share in their damnation also. And to allow myself to stand aside while you condemned them would be cowardice and disloyalty.

LibraryOwl said:

I don't really know what much else to say about that. If thats what you belive, well, then, thats what you believe. But please, I only ask one thing.

I ask that, if you are condemning most of the chruch down the ages, that you condemn me also. For I should be so ashamed, even if I agreed with you on so many things, to sit around idly as if trying to avoid your blows... while you said such things about men and women I considered my ardent friends, who perhaps thought this about homosexuality or that about abortion...

And if you were saying that they have abandoned God, that God is angry with them, then surely I who have prayed and studied and laughed and eaten and taken communion with them share in their damnation also. And to allow myself to stand aside while you condemned them would be cowardice and disloyalty.

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I am condemning religion within the church. The church at large or organized religion is not the body of Christ. Those that are the true believers follow the Lamb where ever He goes, and they are the body of Christ. Those who seek to do God's will no matter what the cost, who love Him above all, that are submitted to Him in every endeavor, who seek for the truth with passion and love, who are "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled." [2 Cor 10:5,6] ---- those are the body of Christ [some of those people are within organized religion - I am not referring to them - consider the parable of the wheat and the tares].

Not sure I am reading you right on the issue of homosexuality and abortion - could you clarify that for me? thanx.

A quick note- God's girl, Homosexuality and abortion are not pertainant to this discussion. So I PMed you my 'position papers' on that topic as to keep this thread from becoming a flame war.

Um, otherwise, however, I don't see any grounds to debate you. I believe in the Nicene Creed.

The Bible is, a set of beautiful myths, legends, stories, teachings, laws and histories. The Bible not only 'allows' several possible interpretations, it in fact requires several possible interpretations. If you have read enough good books, you will have also come to the understanding, as I have, that each Jot and Tibble in that great book was hammered out by the divine mind to have a thousand different meanings, many of them specially tailored for just one person in suffering or distress.

But the Nicene Creed is not like the Bible. It does not offer several interpretations, but it in fact comes with one set of interpretations which are correct. In a word, we 'know' what the authours of the Nicene Creed meant. Therefore, we do not accept the possibility that a man can offer a 'new' interpretation of the Nicene Creed.

Because I believe in the Nicene Creed, I believe in "one holy Catholic and apostolic church." This Church, of course, is not an abstraction. For though it is invisible and mighty, it is also visible and temporal. It is, in a word, organized, so you see how I disagree with you.

It is the Catholic Church, and the Orthodox Churches, and all the faithful Protestant churches. It is true that some movements within Christianity have turned away from this universal church. Not being in the Church is not a sentence to hell. As one wise philosopher said "we know where the Holy Spirit is, but we do not know where he is not!"

We identify groups that have strayed from the universal church not on our own, since we are really forbidden to judge. But we condemn them only if they ask to be condemned. The Jehovah's Witnesses, for instance, have said that all Christianity is a lie and that they are the true Christians. So we do not include such groups when we are tablulating the membership of the universal church, simply because they ask to be excluded.

They say "we are the church." We say, "Very well, you are a church, and we are another church." And so we respect a distinction between us.

Also, it is widely aknowledged as true that not everyone who says to the Lord Jesus, "Thou art lord and king" shall enter the kingdom of heaven. This is why, after having made the distinction of 'christian' and 'not christian' we begin to divide men further into 'good christians' and 'bad christians.' For though we are not permitted to judge others, we are permitted to judge within our local fellowships, if only for the sake of calling men to repentance.

Now of course it is true that some very good men are not members of the universal church. Extreme Fundamentalists, for instance, have rejected it's fellowship by condemning it. Men like Jack Chick and Bob Jones have said of the Catholics, of the Orthodox, of all liberal protestants like myself... yes, I believe, even that mass of protestants living in the lukewarm middle "these men are at the bossom of satan!"

So of course extreme fundamentalists cannot be members of the universal church, yet they cannot either be said to be out of the love of our God, so we pray for them, since they are good people.

And the Orthodox church, which I have mentioned before, is so obviouly an exception to the many rules I have laid down. If you have ever prayed with one of them, or tlaked with them about the Bible, you cannot help but know that their church is in that great fellowship. It is so obvious, how they deny it in words yet believe it in their heart that there is no distinction between us.

That is about all I can say to you. I have fully explained the correct and proper interpretation of the Nicene Creed. I am a man who respects the opinions of others. I respect them so much, indeed, that I do not generally seek to attack them directly, unless they are obviously obsurd. Rather, I would lay out a contrast between that belief and my own, and say, 'is not my own beleif, which is expressed to you thus, so obviously truer to you in your heart?'

So I desire to make that known to you. Christ has not been a failure; but many men have been saved. His church is not hidden under the dirt, but it is spread all over the earth. It is not scattered to the winds, but organized as a mighty institution. It is not falling away, but merely experiences a breif depression.

It is a great danger for any man to imagine that he is living in a consequential time. WWII, for instance, is such a strong memory for us. Yet I believe it may be millions of years, billions even- but who really knows- before our saviour returns to us, and shall not all human history, thus stretched so far- appear bland and samelike, except for that one act of sacrifice he made on the cross for us?

But that which I just expressed, it is not a universal opinion, but it is my own, and quite possibly wrong.

God Bless you. And what 'organized' church are you a member of, anyway?

SonOfSophroniscus said:

Hi, the other day I was talking with some people and one of them said that Christianity was a 'prothetic appendage', used only by those without the strength to support themselves. I don't know what he meant but it seemed quite offensive. What did he mean?

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In other words, they are calling Christianity a crutch, so to speak. Every single college, it seems, has the campus atheist who says, "Christianity is for the weaklings; it is just a crutch."

Karl Marx's famous line, "Religion is the opiate of the masses," is still a common view of many. Those who call themselves Christians are seen as people who need something to enable them to cope with the problems of life. Some people use alcohol, some drugs, others use Christianity to get themselves through this difficult world.

The fact of the matter is we all do need a crutch to get by in this world. We are all crippled in some sense, and down deep inside there is a desire for something to sustain us. The real issue is, "Is this crutch we call Christianity true, or is it something on the same level as drugs or alcohol, invented to meet an admitted need?"

There are definite psychological needs, fear of danger, disease and death, that might prompt us to invent God so that we would feel secure. However, there are also psychological needs that might lead us to deny that God exists. The agnostic or atheist may be using his agnosticism or atheism as a crutch to avoid the responsibility of God's demands.

The God of the Bible is awesome and a threat to mankind. A God who is all-powerful, all-knowing, righteous, holy and just, and who is going to judge the world for its sin, is an extremely imposing figure. Thus, it is only fair to point out that some need the crutch of denying God's existence in order to live their lives as they please without fear of judgement.

Aldous Huxley articulated this is Ends and Means: "For myself, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation, sexual and political" (Ends and Means, p. 270ff.).

The truth of the Christian faith is not based upon psychological needs for or against God. Yes, it is possible that Christianity could have started because people need something to lean on, but the question is not how it could have started but how it did start.

We again are brought back to the real issue, which is the person of Jesus Christ. Does mankind need to lean on Him, or can we lean on something else?

Jesus made the issue very clear, "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him to a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock."

"And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it" (Matthew 7:24-27, KJV).

One could also state it this way. A crutch presupposes two things: 1) that there is a disease, sickness or hurt, and 2) that a person has been given some type of a remedy (this is why he has a crutch).

Two questions immediately arise. First, what is the disease? Is it real or imagined? And second, is the remedy the correct one for the disease?

With Christianity, God clearly states that the disease is sin, and that the disease is real. It is not a psychological, imaginary hang-up in need of a religious fix as Marx would propound. Rather, the remedy, instead of being a religious crutch, is a relationship with Jesus Christ.

Therefore, Christianity in one sense is a crutch. But it is more than a crutch; it is the sure foundation, the truth of life.

If Jesus Christ be God and died on the cross for our sins and created us to be in fellowship with God the Father through Him, then to call Him a crutch would be like a light bulb saying to an electrical socket, "You are my crutch." As a light bulb was created to function properly when inserted into the socket, so we have been created to function properly in a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

In 1964 I attended a state university philosophy class, in which the lecturer stated categorically that he intended to convert 1/3 of the class to atheism and another 1/3 to agnosticism by the end of that quarter. His lectures then proceeded to attack what he perceived Christianity to be, which was nothing more than a bunch of do's and don't's. But this is not Biblical Christianity, although there are those who would have us see it as that.

Christ taught us that we were to be childlike in our faith, but not childish in our behavior. What we did, or refrained from doing, was to be seen by us as nothing more than doing as we ought, with no reward except the accomplishment of our tasks as being sought:

"Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, 'Come along now and sit down to eat'? Would he not rather say, 'Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'? Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.' " (The Gospel According to St. Luke 17:7-10,NIV)

But God is the ultimate realist, and as such, he realized that we as mortal beings, try as we might, could never 'measure up' to the standard of righteousness which he requires of all who would enter his presence. So he himself provides that righteousness to us:

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by oberving the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."

"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)

There are, of course, those who attack Christianity because they perceive it as an obstacle to their own 'pet' philosophy. Lenin and his doctrine of dialectical materialism is one example, but there are other examples. Hard determinism, which states that we are all powerless to overcome the programming which our environments have 'uploaded' into us, and therefore are not responsible for our own actions, irregardless of what those actions are, was the philosophy which the aforementioned lecturer 'pushed' onto his students. Postmodernism, which teaches that all morality is purely subjective and therefore to be relegated to the area of superstition by the 'truly' intellectual, is another.

But we as Christians recognize that God is truly a personal God, to whom the title 'Author of Justice' applies. He has given us the means whereby we may enter his presence confident that we have his blessing. But it is a blessing which we can never earn; instead it must be earned for us, and this has been done through the accomplishments of God himself.

Good posts, gentlemen, good posts!

LibraryOwl said:

Um, otherwise, however, I don't see any grounds to debate you. I believe in the Nicene Creed.

The Bible is, a set of beautiful myths, legends, stories, teachings, laws and histories.

But the Nicene Creed is not like the Bible. It does not offer several interpretations, but it in fact comes with one set of interpretations which are correct.

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I am curious, but are you saying that the NC has more authority and truth, which was composed by man, than the Bible which is inspired by God?

thanx

ps: what do you mean by "myths" and "legends" and "stories" in the Bible?