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Question about Calvinism and TULIP

dms1972

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Hi,

Just wanted to ask about what Calvinists think about believing on Jesus? Can a person believe on Jesus whenever they want?

I was reading a bit of John Bunyan and Pilgrims progress, and the conversation between Christian and Hopeful about the latter's conversion. Hopeful went through a process at first trying to reform himself and then despairing but he felt all his good deeds were tainted by sin, and eventually coming to understand that he needed another's righteousness.

I ask because it seems easy to me having a bit of doctrine to go through the ABC of becoming a christian without really deeply feeling, or seeing my need of a saviour.
 

Cormack

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Just wanted to ask about what Calvinists think about believing on Jesus? Can a person believe on Jesus whenever they want?

They cannot, not according to Calvinism. The T of TULIP houses the doctrine of inability, the inability to respond positively to Gods appeals to be reconciled.

No amount of prophets, preachers, sermons or scripture can convince people to “believe on Jesus.” People have no ability to do so. Gods effective power causes people to believe on Jesus. Regeneration proceeds faith, and God does the regeneration without our input on the subject.

That’s Calvinistic soteriology.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Hi,

Just wanted to ask about what Calvinists think about believing on Jesus? Can a person believe on Jesus whenever they want?

I was reading a bit of John Bunyan and Pilgrims progress, and the conversation between Christian and Hopeful about the latter's conversion. Hopeful went through a process at first trying to reform himself and then despairing but he felt all his good deeds were tainted by sin, and eventually coming to understand that he needed another's righteousness.

I ask because it seems easy to me having a bit of doctrine to go through the ABC of becoming a christian without really deeply feeling, or seeing my need of a saviour.

The premise of your question from the vanish point of election begins with what happened as a consequence of the fall. The fall didn't just "pollute good people" it made them spiritually dead. ("Dead in trespass and sin.")

Thus your realization that "it seems all too easy" to "go through the ABC of becoming a christian with out really deeply feeling, or seeing my need for a savior". That statement come from the heart of one who doesn't believe their nature is corrupted beyond their ability to repair.

This is the "T" in TULIP. (Total depravity)

Now total depravity does not mean humans are incapable of acting in ways that are morally right. To retain the decision making ability to act in ways that are morally right is what makes fallen humanity accountable to God for their moral failure. That's why "the wages of sin is death". The failure to act morally is judged in a scale that measures the rightful "wage" earned by the commission of sin. That is "The Law" written on the conscience. This is why "The Law" condemns.

Now the written revelation of "The Law" that humans know as written on their conscience is reflected in what we'd call the moral laws of the Old Testament.

"The Law" too though is also reflected in the creation. (As well as the redemption plan is reflected in the creation.) Thus Scripture declares that those who disobey God are "without excuse" for lack of exposure to written revelation of Scripture. They have a conscience and they have a creation around them that presents the gospel in a type of parable.

On the positive side of that "without excuse" passage though, also means that they who have not written Scripture "have not been left without a witness". Thus opening the door to the possibility that in God's Divine providence Christ has atoned for individuals who lived and died without ever having known anything about Him in regards to what they'd heard from other people, or what they were aware of in the form of written revelation. So yes, it is possible that an American native running through the forests, or plains back in the days of King David, could have been awakened to a certain revelation of the presence of God. And that action of the Holy Spirit was based on the fact that this person had been atoned for by Christ in eternity. (Jesus is the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world" Revelation 13:8)

So "Total depravity" does not mean "depraved totally". A good comparison here would be between Adam and Satan. Once angels fall, they are no longer capable of doing moral good. They are "depraved totally". Humans though by nature of being created in God's image are not "depraved totally".

The fall did not change the principle truth that humans are created in God's image. Part of what makes us what we are is that we have conscience. Scripture says the breath of life made Adam "a living soul". Everything that's alive possesses the breath of life. Now does "living soul" in that context mean more than just possessing physical life? (I don't know the answer to that off the top of my head. I've never studied that out in the Hebrew.)

"Total depravity" from the standpoint of a theological definition though; means the transgression that caused the fall into the state separation caused that separation to be total. The sin that brought about the fall was a known, understood and deliberate action by Adam. 1 Timothy 2:14 says Adam was not deceived; but Eve was.

Now what of the consequence did Adam understand? Apparently it was enough for the sake of accountability.

Which brings us to the consequence of the fall causing this total separation. One of the manifestations of that is that people don't want God on God's terms. Evidence thereof being, as you stated; failure to acknowledge the need for the Redeemer. What you see of yourself is evidence of the consequence of the fall. And you are not alone in that. That is the elemental state of unregenerate humanity.

Failure to acknowledge your need for the Redeemer. And you intuitively know that this is only a trick of self deception; because "The Law" is written on your conscience. Now the fact that you've been awakened to a certain understanding that you are acknowledging this; isn't a bad thing from a redemptive stand point. Are you one of God's elect where He's suddenly "cut the lights on"? (I don't know.)

So to answer your question about whether or not a person can just believe on Jesus when ever they want? From the perspective of Divine action; the answer to that question is "no". One has to be "quickened" / "made alive" by the Spirit of God.

Now as to how God works in individuals related to their personal circumstances and their trials and tribulations; yes one "believes on Jesus" "when they want to". That "want" though comes about as a reaction to the action of the Holy Spirit.

Granted, I know I gave you more of an answer than maybe what you'd originally asked; but a grasp on the intellectual understanding of God's sovereignty, will make Pilgrim's Progress more understandable as 17th century literature.
 
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John Mullally

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I am not a Calvinist.

When one comes to the point of "What shall we do", you can act on the promise of Acts 2:38-39. There is no need to wait for a sign. This promise is true.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them

Paul gives the remedy for having weak faith in Romans 10:17 that you can also act on: So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 
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dms1972

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So a non christian has to accept these five points?

Is there anything a person can do? What if someone is resisting the five points, can they pray to be able to accept them?

One more question. What of someone who has accepted them in the past (someone for whom they formed the basis of their conversion) but has fallen away, back-slid, or gotten into other theologies?
 
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The Righterzpen

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So a non christian has to accept these five points?

Why would a non-Christian care?

Is there anything a person can do? What if someone is resisting the five points, can they pray to be able to accept them?

You can pray for help with anything.

One more question. What of someone who has accepted them in the past (someone for whom they formed the basis of their conversion) but has fallen away, back-slid, or gotten into other theologies?

The answer here is pretty simple. One either believes God is sovereign in redemption or they don't. If you "back slide" from "God predestine and elected me unto salvation." What would you back slide too? "I predestine and elected myself"?
 
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hopperace

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Hey dms, CF supporter. I’m going to frame the answer another way. The heart of the problem is a problem of the heart. Bunyan’s (who was a Calvinist) person Hopeful, for example, and his wanting and trying to reform. I believe every creature of the Creator is stamped in our very being to want relationship with the Creator (yep, even Satan). Hopeful even goes a step or two further – he acknowledges his want, tries to do something about it, and sees he can’t seem to get anywhere satisfying his want on his own.

Now, this “believe on Jesus” you post of. For we Calvinists, “believe” (and “believe on”), “whenever”, and “want” are impactful words full of theology. We find the Word of God (the Christian Scriptures) infallible, without error, wholly self-consistent and divinely instructive. James 2:19 (KJV) instructs, “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble”. These devils believe, but it is not a saving belief – it is a knowing that there is the one true God, and a knowing fear there are obstacles in their relationship.

As to men like Hopeful, Calvinists say his “want” is irrevocably broken. He can study and know in his mind God is real, and even know what Scripture teaches of the path to a right relationship with God. But try as he may on his own, his “want” is broken. What I mean is, he can only try to approach God and a right relationship his way, from his sinful heart; not the way God instructs and facilitates through Jesus, or “on Jesus”, as you post. AND, the “whenever” must also come from God toward man. Hopeful discovers it cannot come from man toward God, not without God’s saving help.

AND, Calvinists find in Scripture that since it is God’s work, He completes and secures it:

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.” (John 10:27-30, ESV)
 
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hopperace

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As to even a saved Christian and having correct theology, as most Calvinists understand TULIP to be; it isn't a correct understanding of God that saves anyone either, but God Himself. All of us humans here on Earth still "see through a glass darkly" (1 Cor.13:12), and don't know everything.
 
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