Question about Adultery

Grishnak · Mar 23, 2005

SirKenin said:
I have flirted all my life because it is my very nature.

I have well over 80 female friends and I'm still going strong.

I have several women that are eager to date me.

Several more that would like other things.

I never have any problems getting a girlfriend.

They act quickly so they don't get beat to the punch and have even stated as much.

My current girlfriend is flirty just like me and NONE of my relationships disolved for flirting nor was it EVER brought up as a problem.

Soo. You were saying?

Ok ok, Ill tell you then

You say its ok to flirt, and you ARe flirting with women who you admit want to go out with you.
and you try to pretend its platonic

I knew something would expose ya soon enuff

SirKenin · Mar 23, 2005

Grishnak said:
Now pretend I wrote this post and tell me whats very wrong here

Nothing. I go through girlfriends until I find what I'm looking for. Are you jealous because I have the ability to do so or something?

I don't have to settle for second best, like some tightwad or insecure control freak, so I don't. I run with it as long as I possibly can and when it doesn't work out, I move on, largely because I can. Thankfully I haven't dated any jealous women, but I know they are out there. People that are so insecure they have to try and control their man because they think they are going to lose him to another woman. Well they're right, but it's their own doing.

And there's one more thing about me, something I search for in particular in a woman, that most woman don't have. This is the main reason why I have gone through so many women. I'm not going to say what it is because it's none of your business, but so far I haven't found it. I've come close a couple of times, but not good enough. I think I may very well have found it in this woman though, and I'm going to see how it goes. Play it by ear. So far so good though.

Grishnak · Mar 23, 2005

Jesus HATED divorce. He wiped out this Deuteronomic Law you're so proud of because it was being abused, just like you preach people to abuse it in this forum. He eradicated it and put a new Law in place. One you are counciling people NOT to follow because you think you're so smart and you know better.

Now youre being silly.

If Jesus had went completely against Mosiac law (wiped out, as you say) the Pharisees would have proven their case and the mob would had turned aganst HIm.

Jesus did not ''eradicate'' Deut 24.
If He had, then there would be NO divorce permitted EVER.

Im glad we're having this discusssion, btw, it reallly helps me understand how much you have actaully studied

We are called to live in peace, but that means only one of two things. If the unbeliever leaves, let him and remarry. If you are leaving for any other reason than adultery, stay single. That's it. That's how we live in peace. We don't dance around it justifying our actions in the name of "mercy" or "sacrifice" or any of these other ridiculous terms you're throwing around that don't apply. You're taking something entirely out of context in Hosea and then pretending you know what you're talking about. It's a joke.

No, what I am doing is presenting that there is MORE to the picture than those 4 little verses you keep ranting on about.
Jesus said what He said for sure, theres no doubt about that.
And what I have stated is precise and can be verified with the words of scholars.
Shall I start posting their words too, so we can see who is ''foolish" ?

Showing mercy on someone or making a sacrifice for God does not mean counciling them to violate Jesus and Paul's teachings or ditching your husband for any old reason and jumping on another man. That's defrauding them and being a false witness. Not showing mercy. I have no idea where you got that stupidity from.

Wow... Then I guess Jesus was wrong for defending Davids breaking of the law out of necessity when he was hungry.
But there Jesus is, doing just that.

You know why?
BECUASE JESUS WANTED MERCY, NOT SACRIFICE !!!

David broke the law, THAT is a fact.
But our Lord turns right around and defends David because David didnt break it out of selfishness, he broke it out of necessity.

The same necessity that a woman uses when shes being beaten by some dog of a man.
She puts him away in violation of the direct commandment, just like David ate bread in violation of the direct commandment.

You keep studying SK, one of these days youll actually be able to see the truth of a Merciful God in the bible.
I hope anyway.

SirKenin · Mar 23, 2005

Grishnak said:
Ok ok, Ill tell you then

You say its ok to flirt, and you ARe flirting with women who you admit want to go out with you.
and you try to pretend its platonic

I knew something would expose ya soon enuff

There's nothing wrong with hugging, complimenting, kissing on the cheek or being nice to ANY woman. Who cares if they want to go out with you or not? What difference does that make? They can't have you so what's the big deal?

I don't have any problem with them. They don't hit on me, I don't hit on them. That's where I think you are losing control of your arguments. Hitting on them would definitely be wrong. You can't do that while you're with a lady and certainly I don't.

If you said "you're hitting on them" I would acknowledge that you might have a point.

Grishnak · Mar 23, 2005

Nothing. I go through girlfriends until I find what I'm looking for. Are you jealous because I have the ability to do so or something?

And again, do you honestly think you gf doesnt need to worry about this attitude?

I wont even bother to respond to the jealously thing, Im not that vain yet

This is the main reason why I have gone through so many women.

ouch.
and still flirting.
My suspicions are being confirmed with every post here

People that are so insecure they have to try and control their man because they think they are going to lose him to another woman.

and some people, like me for instance, thinks its is dishonorable both to your partner and to our Lord to flirt with other women.

Especially when you seem to know that so many of them actaully WANt to date you.

Grishnak · Mar 23, 2005

SirKenin said:
I don't have any problem with them. They don't hit on me, I don't hit on them. That's where I think you are losing control of your arguments. Hitting on them would definitely be wrong. You can't do that while you're with a lady and certainly I don't.

Something just is way off here

"I have several women that are eager to date me.
Several more that would like other things. "

Howd you know how they felt then?
It cant be ok to ''flirt'' with someone you know is ''eager to date you"

SirKenin · Mar 23, 2005

Grishnak said:
Now youre being silly.

If Jesus had went completely against Mosiac law (wiped out, as you say) the Pharisees would have proven their case and the mob would had turned aganst HIm.

Jesus did not ''eradicate'' Deut 24.
If He had, then there would be NO divorce permitted EVER.

He DID eradicate Mosaic Law and REPLACED it with the new Law in Matt 19:9. You can not deny it or you are preaching a lie.

As for studied? You have no idea how much I've studied. You think you know everything, but you can rest assured you don't. Btw, when I need more info my father is a pastor with his Masters of Divinity from Abilene Christian University. He's but a phonecall away. Of course I have him on MSN too.

Wow... Then I guess Jesus was wrong for defending Davids breaking of the law out of necessity when he was hungry.
But there Jesus is, doing just that.

You know why?
BECUASE JESUS WANTED MERCY, NOT SACRIFICE !!!

You know where your argument breaks down? Jesus was defending David's breaking of the old Law. Jesus did the same thing all the time in a purposeful demonstration that he was fighting the temple priests and pharisees every step of the way (that was one of his main missions while on earth), but never ever EVER did Jesus break his own teachings and make a hypocrite of himself. He does NOT advocate you violating his very strict teachings on the matter of divorce. Again you are preaching a lie.

Mercy is fine, I agree we should show mercy to people in our lives, I won't deny you that. Mercy and preaching lies however are two separate things.

SirKenin · Mar 23, 2005

It can be ok to "flirt" with whoever you want because if you actually took some time to use your eyes and your head you would have noticed I defined flirting for you. Being friendly, giving them a hug, a kiss on the cheek and complimenting them. That's how you should treat EVERY woman, no matter what. Maybe I set myself to a higher standard than you do. Maybe that's one of the reasons why I have so many friends. What is one supposed to do? Be a jerk to them because they want to date you? Ignore you? I think you're starting to look rather foolish in your attempt to discredit and make yourself look like someone you're not

Give it up Grish. You're acting like a loser man. You're looking for evey itty bitty little thing to pick apart and you're acting like my eleven year old daughter.

It was fine for a while but now it's getting old. Get a life. Stop wasting my time.

babyangel · Mar 23, 2005

SirKenin said:
Deuteronomic Law does not apply to us, so you can not quote it to make your case Grishnak. That is precisely where your argument falls apart, voiding the rest of your presentation. Jesus gave us a new act to follow, and he was very VERY specific in his wording about divorce. He even said "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that any man that divorces his wife except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery".

"...And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery"

Jesus VOIDED the very Law you are trying to preach, so you are preaching nothing but an outright lie.

For starters, different bibles use different words, if you are going to use marital unfaithfulness then that would include many things beyond fornication. Was my huband marital faithfull to my by physically hurting me?

Contrary to popular prevalent opinion, Jesus did NOT create new law regarding marriage, divorce and remarriage when speaking with the Pharisees in Matthew 19:3-9. He pointed out and confirmed to those Pharisees already existing Law, which was found in Deuteronomy 24:1-4. This law, written by Moses as instructed by God, permitted the husband to divorce his wife for specific reasons stated as uncleanness andtranslated as such from the Hebrew word ervah. Some assert that the uncleanness was the same as the Greek word porneia, which is usually translated fornication, which is any sexual activity outside of marriage. This may be, however, impossible to prove. Regardless, however, it does not affect the conclusions drawn from the word of God found within this paper.

It is important to realize that the practice of "putting away" of the wives without giving her a writing of divorcement was only "suffered" due to the Jews hardness of heart, as stated by Jesus in Matthew 19:7-8. God, through His servant Moses, gave the regulation for actual divorce proceedings in Deuteronomy 24:1-4. Because women were being unjustly put away, without any means of livelihood to support themselves, and without the freedom to marry another, Moses, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, provided an outlet for these women through the steps he outlined in Deuteronomy 24:1-4. Thus, in order to provide for the protection and benefit of the woman, the Law of Moses required the giving of a "bill of divorcement".

Jesus verified this in Marks account: "And there came unto Him Pharisees, and asked Him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? trying Him. And He answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. But Jesus said unto them, For your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment." (Mark 10:2-5) This was not something that was simply an option. It was a command for the men that should they divorce their wives, they must do so in a manner in accordance with the Law of Moses.

Moses and the Law allowed for a woman who was divorced to remarry another man without fear or shame: "And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife." (Deuteronomy 24:2) Jesus was not, as has been oft times told and repeated, introducing a new law when the Pharisees confronted Him. He was, however, upholding not only the Law of Moses, but God's law from the beginning: "And He answered and said, Have ye not read, that He who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh? They say unto Him, Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses for your hardness of heart suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it hath not been so." (Matthew 19:4-5, 7-8) Jesus did not contradict the Law, under which He lived perfectly. If He had contradicted the Law, then it would have meant He had committed sin! If He had contradicted the Law, then His enemies would have had the justification to kill Him legally! Jesus, however, came not to contradict, but to fulfill the Law: "Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished." (Matthew 5:17-18) No, Jesus did not contradict the Law, for that was the very thing that the Jews in power, who were the enemies of Jesus, were trying so desperately to get Him to do, and kept failing miserably! What is most ironic is that the followers of Jesus today who wish to cling to the traditional marriage, divorce and remarriage doctrine assert proudly that Jesus did change the Law! And that is utterly absurd!

God had never held an innocent person accountable for another persons sin, and yet there were many teaching that even the innocent person could not remarry if divorced. Secondly, many teach that a couple who is divorced and subsequently remarried must divorce their current spouses and marry again their first spouse in order to be reconciled back to God. This thinking causes a myriad of problems, not the least of which is it is totally contradicting the word of God! "And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, who took her to be his wife; her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before Jehovah: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which Jehovah thy God giveth thee for an inheritance." (Deuteronomy 24:3-4) In essence, if this practice would be allowed, a man would have the means to be legally prostituting his own wife! If this practice was an abomination to God under the Old Law, there is no reason to believe it still is not an abomination to Him under the New Covenant. The word used here, abomination, is translated from the Hebrew towebah or toebah, meaning to loathe; something disgusting; an abhorrence; and it is usually associated with idolatry! We know that God has always condemned idolatry!

SirKenin · Mar 23, 2005

I'm bowing out now, because I know he won't quit. He wants to convince everybody he's right and all the other "Pharisees" around him are wrong. We've seen his kind in here before and we're certain to see it again if we stick around long enough. Frankly, however, I've had enough of the nonsense and you will have the opportunity to either believe him or not. I can tell you, though, that he'd like nothing more than for you to shower him with accolades for doing such a "good job" and that's why he's doing all of these things. He needs to feel better about himself by putting everyone else down.

So... I'll let him. I don't have any more time or patience for this little game and that's all it is.

Enjoy.

babyangel · Mar 23, 2005

SirKenin said:
We are called to live in peace, but that means only one of two things. If the unbeliever leaves, let him and remarry. If you are leaving for any other reason than adultery, stay single. That's it. That's how we live in peace.

So Sirkenin isnt someone that is abusing their spouse an unbeliver (worse than) and of course not willing to live in peace? Isnt that the whole argument cant one in that case be divorced and remarry??

SirKenin · Mar 23, 2005

babyangel said:
For starters, different bibles use different words, if you are going to use marital unfaithfulness then that would include many things beyond fornication.

Fornication does not include physical abuse

Second, you twisted Jesus' commandments in the NT. He was NOT commanding a man to divorce according to the OT. He was commanding them NOT to divorce. He voided the Law in the OT, invalidating the Scribes and Pharisees grip over the people (one of his missions on earth was to do this, as well as tear down the walls of the temple which was accomplished in 74 AD).

He was saying that David was just in going against the Law, just as Jesus himself did on many occasions, such as breaking bread on the Sabbath. This was to prove a point that the Scribes and Pharisees, two of the four most powerful groups in the land, no longer held jurisdiction. He was saying "Forget the Scribes and Pharisees, you're following my commandments now". This is precisely why the Scribes and Pharisees hated so much, attempted to trap him all the time and ultimately sought after his crucifixion. His message of mercy was that the Scribes and Pharisees were being cruel tyrrants, adhering to every letter of the Law without mercy, twisting the scriptures to suit their purposes. Jesus came to save the people from their tyrannical rule (well, that's one reason).

Jesus established new commandments to follow. He practiced what he preached and never ever EVER went back on his own words. He followed them to the letter, setting an example for all of his believers to follow.

This takes us to Matthew and Mark. Jesus set strict rules for divorce. Rules that you broke. He didn't give any leeway. He didn't say "Well, in the name of mercy I'll allow you to do this, this and this". No. He said you will NOT divorce your partner except for fornication. Period.

Have fun buttering up Grish.

babyangel · Mar 23, 2005

SirKenin said:
I have flirted all my life because it is my very nature. I have well over 80 female friends and I'm still going strong. I have several women that are eager to date me. Several more that would like other things. I never have any problems getting a girlfriend. They act quickly so they don't get beat to the punch and have even stated as much. My current girlfriend is flirty just like me and NONE of my relationships disolved for flirting nor was it EVER brought up as a problem.

Soo. You were saying?

Not that it is anyone's business and I am not trying to judge but out of all these girlfriends you have had were they all none sexual? Because the bible strictly says one is not to fornicate. And if one has sex with a virgin they are to marry them and NEVER divorce them, Again Sirkenin I ask why the need to bring up and never divorce if divorce is not allowed?

SirKenin · Mar 23, 2005

babyangel said:
Not that it is anyone's business and I am not trying to judge but out of all these girlfriends you have had were they all none sexual?

That's none of your business and I'll thank you for refraining in the future.

Again Sirkenin I ask why the need to bring up and never divorce if divorce is not allowed?

There are two causes for divorce. I was divorced because my wife was not only a non-believer and left, but she was also unfaithful. A double whammy.

Ok, I'm off. My girlfriend is here.

babyangel · Mar 23, 2005

SirKenin said:
It can be ok to "flirt" with whoever you want because if you actually took some time to use your eyes and your head you would have noticed I defined flirting for you. Being friendly, giving them a hug, a kiss on the cheek and complimenting them. That's how you should treat EVERY woman, no matter what. Maybe I set myself to a higher standard than you do. Maybe that's one of the reasons why I have so many friends. What is one supposed to do? Be a jerk to them because they want to date you? Ignore you? I think you're starting to look rather foolish in your attempt to discredit and make yourself look like someone you're not

Give it up Grish. You're acting like a loser man. You're looking for evey itty bitty little thing to pick apart and you're acting like my eleven year old daughter.

It was fine for a while but now it's getting old. Get a life. Stop wasting my time.

Just caught something here, you have an 11 year old daugher. Have you ever been married?? Nevermind I needed to keep reading to find out.

Grishnak · Mar 23, 2005

You know where your argument breaks down? Jesus was defending David's breaking of the old Law. Jesus did the same thing all the time in a purposeful demonstration that he was fighting the temple priests and pharisees every step of the way (that was one of his main missions while on earth), but never ever EVER did Jesus break his own teachings and make a hypocrite of himself. He does NOT advocate you violating his very strict teachings on the matter of divorce. Again you are preaching a lie.

This is almost hilarious.
Are you saying the the Law was evil or wrong?
Jesus didnt seem to think that at all.

It is of no relevance that it was OT OR NT, Jesus defending Davids actions caused by NEED.
He was defending His disciples at the same moment who were charged with breaking the law.

And lets see if your logic is sound, shall we?

YOu have stated that Paul said if the unbeliever leaves, then its ok to divorce,
Ill find your post if I need to.

But What did Jesus say?
ONLY FOR FORNICATION could one put away a wife, is what He said.

So is Paul a liar?
Or did Paul recognize that yes, there WAS yet another reason that a divorce may happen.
It may happen that the acts of an UNbeleiver may leave the believer with no choice.

What was Paul doing?
Showing mercy to the believer who did all they could to be a good spouse, but couldnt control that actions of the infidel they married.

Mercy is fine, I agree we should show mercy to people in our lives, I won't deny you that. Mercy and preaching lies however are two separate things.

Somehow I think mercy is only necessary only when you have judged that it is.
Praise God that He can hear the cries of a beaten wife when you cannot.

Grishnak · Mar 23, 2005

SirKenin said:
It can be ok to "flirt" with whoever you want because if you actually took some time to use your eyes and your head you would have noticed I defined flirting for you. Being friendly, giving them a hug, a kiss on the cheek and complimenting them. That's how you should treat EVERY woman, no matter what.

So its ok to ''flirt'' with women who you have stated have feelings for you and want to date?
You are an odd one.
I hope your Gf can put up with this for 20 years or so.

Maybe I set myself to a higher standard than you do.

Maybe not.

Maybe that's one of the reasons why I have so many friends.

Flirting with women you said want you to date them has nothing to do with having friends.
I have female christian friends.
Very beautiful ones at that.
Id put a gun in my mouth before Id act improperly with them and cause my honey to have to wonder about my intentions.

What is one supposed to do? Be a jerk to them because they want to date you?

Not flirt with them if you are supposedly commited to another.
I guess I hold myself to a higher standard than you

I think you're starting to look rather foolish in your attempt to discredit and make yourself look like someone you're not

Interesting.
Little poll
1) Grishnak looks like a fool.
2) Grishnak doesnt look like a fool.

Everyone vote now please

Give it up Grish. You're acting like a loser man. You're looking for evey itty bitty little thing to pick apart and you're acting like my eleven year old daughter.

Well, God has given us all some sort of talent.
Mine seems to be picking apart the little details in the lives of hypocrits.
Its a dirty job, but someone has to do it

Grishnak · Mar 23, 2005

SirKenin said:
That's none of your business and I'll thank you for refraining in the future.

I dont understand the defensiveness.
we're discussing sexual sin here anyway.

Ill go first.
Yes, I had sex with my ex before marriage.
There, see, I can admit my sin.
Can you?

There are two causes for divorce. I was divorced because my wife was not only a non-believer and left, but she was also unfaithful. A double whammy.

Thanks.
Im quoting this just in case you bail on me later about the second cause

heartnsoul · Mar 23, 2005

Grishnak said:
Somehow I think mercy is only necessary only when you have judged that it is.
Praise God that He can hear the cries of a beaten wife when you cannot.

Amen and well said Grishnak! Thank God we have an awesome God who is loving, forgiving, and can hear the cries of all abused victims.

SirKenin · Mar 23, 2005

I'm really sorry everyone. I said I wouldn't, but I just can't resist. Bear with me or throw stones at me, whichever you like.

Grishnak. Jesus did not say the Law was evil. He said that he fulfilled the Law. The Law was meant to show the Jews that they were sinners and could not achieve salvation of their own accord. Jesus fulfilled that Law by dying on the cross and rising again to give the Jews a way to salvation, simply believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and they would be saved.

Jesus did show on numerous occasions that the old Law was not the be all end all by breaking it himself on many occasions. Like you said, he favored mercy in the place of strict adherence to Deuteronomic Law, tryranically enforced by his opposition, the Scribes and Pharisees. It was all about removing their power, something the Scribes and Pharisees knew and hated.

Jesus said on numerous occasions, you have heard it said that...but I tell you that... Saying the old Law is applicable no more. You are to follow my commandments now. However, Jesus never ever double talked. He never broke his own commandments and he never made a hypocrite of himself. Why you ask? Well thanks for asking. Jesus was setting an example for all of us to follow. We are to follow his teachings and Jesus taught VERY clearly on the subject of divorce.

Paul, in 1 Cor 7, went one step further. He first outlined what God revealed to him, and then he outlined his own opinions. His opinion was not about abuse. Not about flirting. Not about being out too late on Saturday nights. His opinion was in regards to non-believers. You can't hold a non-believer accountable to Jesus' teachings, so rather than fight over it and live in constant strife, it was Paul's opinion that you should just let the non-believer go as we are called to live in peace. This is the whole logic behind letting the non-believer go. Because you can not, no matter how hard you try, hold them accountable to Jesus' commandments, because to a non-believer Jesus' commandments are nothing but folly.

It has NOTHING to do with either abuse, flirting, never coming home, drinking too much beer or any of the other lies you are presenting here Grish. You are misleading people, whether purposely or otherwise, filling their heads full of lies and/or misunderstandings.

See, I've studied an AWFUL LOT more than I originally let on and you pathetically accused me of.

Question about Adultery

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