Question 3

[Danny777]

And I think that's the problem - for as many it is NOT enough - and yet the Christians seem to think that because they accepted it on a particular basis, that everyone should.

I am not making this up - read the words of Jesus for yourself...He is the one we will all answer to one day...you will NOT be answering to other Christians...

The entire setup is not fair. Why SHOULD someone be punished for not believing, if that's a honest conclusion? Why should we even be at risk of that in first place? Why create things that way?

Don't create a giant DO NOT PRESS button in the middle of your paradise, for example.

I am not doubting it is an honest conclusion - its both an honest conclusion and the wrong conclusion.

I might honestly decide the cross the road thinking its safe. It is really unfair if it proves I made an error of judgment and get run over? The car doesn't decide to avoid me because I made an honest (but errant) attempt to gauge how safe the road is!

Don't assume that 2000 year old second and third hand accounts will convince everyone - which should also come as no surprise to you if you're omniscient!

Do you think that maybe Jesus Christ should have be been born in every generation in history to be crucified again and again so that EVERYONE could see it first hand? IF IF IF the accounts of Jesus are accurate - everything we need to know has been clearly explained...

The "invitation" to the party is open to everyone. If you do not believe the invite is genuine or that the host of the party does not exist, then don't respond. But don't then complain of injustice and unfairness when others, working with the same invite and evidence as you did accept the invite and you miss out...

I would rather lose every argument to you here, but see you in heaven one day - if Jesus was who He said He was, that will ONLY happen through Him...

 

[tonybeer]

They don't have to deliberately act un-Jesus like. You are working on the assumption that if you believe in Jesus you are a good person/ will become a good person. I can think of examples where it is not the case. Therefore it is a flawed assumption.

I thought God chooses who goes to heaven?

I'd prefer heaven over eternal torture.


Let me ask you another question:

Would you feel any guilt that you are sat in heaven having a lovely time, whilst others are being tormented?

Lets say in 200 years time you are in heaven and I am in hell, just because I wasn't presented with enough evidence to make me believe. Would it upset you at all to think of me being tortured for the rest of eternity?

Lets say you get to watch me scream in agony every day. Would it not make you think that the system was slightly immoral, just because I didn't believe one set of peoples claims that the bible was true?

Would you say to God that maybe I didn't deserve this and his system was immoral?

If you saw a fellow human being being tortured today, I'd bet you'd try and stop it, even if they had different beliefs to your own, so I'd hope you would do the same in heaven if you had one ounce of morality.

 

[Danny777]

They don't have to deliberately act un-Jesus like. You are working on the assumption that if you believe in Jesus you are a good person/ will become a good person. I can think of examples where it is not the case. Therefore it is a flawed assumption.

I am not!! I am saying that no-one ever reaches the point where they can be called a "good person". A genuine Christian tries to be a good person and will attempt to be like Jesus - it is a journey...but no-one is ever good enough to be called good when measured against Gods law...

The whole point of the Christian faith is the acceptance that you cannot earn you way to heaven and the reliance and trust in Jesus. Once you are a Christian, it is natural to endeavor to be like Jesus, whilst also accepting you will never be perfect.

I thought God chooses who goes to heaven?

Yes and no. God has explained the problem(sin) and HOW we can have access to heaven through faith in Christ. WE then decide whether to accept Jesus OR trust in our own works. All works will be measured against Gods law, not anyone else's...

I'd prefer heaven over eternal torture.

Great, you need to come to faith in Jesus...

Let me ask you another question:

Would you feel any guilt that you are sat in heaven having a lovely time, whilst others are being tormented?

Based on my current perspective of life, yes...

Lets say in 200 years time you are in heaven and I am in hell, just because I wasn't presented with enough evidence to make me believe. Would it upset you at all to think of me being tortured for the rest of eternity?

Would it upset me?...yes! But you have been presented with EXACTLY the same evidence as me. If its good enough for me, there is no excuse for you if you reject the evidence and then find out you were wrong!

If someone crosses the road and gets run over because they didn't accept that a car was coming, it would be upsetting for me BUT it could have been easily avoided by them looking more carefully. It is highly regrettable that the got knocked down by the car but its is NOT unfair!

Lets say you get to watch me scream in agony every day. Would it not make you think that the system was slightly immoral, just because I didn't believe one set of peoples claims that the bible was true?

Would you say to God that maybe I didn't deserve this and his system was immoral?

No...there is no injustice here. YOU have decided NOT to accept the rescue available in Christ. It is free of charge and ANYONE can accept. It WOULD greatly upset me that you rejected this rescue package, but it is still your choice. If you had not been given the message of the rescue, that would be different, but you have!

If you saw a fellow human being being tortured today, I'd bet you'd try and stop it, even if they had different beliefs to your own, so I'd hope you would do the same in heaven if you had one ounce of morality.

Of course I would, but I don't think it will would be possible...read Luke 16:19-31...

You and Gadarene have quite a fixation with the idea of God setting people on fire and gleefully watching them burn for eternity. This is a woeful distortion of the true context of the passages that describe hell and I think you both know it...there is no hint at all that God takes any pleasure in inflicting punishment of humanity - many passages CLEARLY state that God desperately wants us to turn to Him.

You have both said you do NOT want to go to heaven based of the character of God in the Bible. You would therefore be the FIRST to complain of unfairness if despite your "unbelief" you were FORCED to go to a heaven you never wanted in the first place!

 

[tonybeer]

Would it upset me?...yes! But you have been presented with EXACTLY the same evidence as me. If its good enough for me, there is no excuse for you if you reject the evidence and then find out you were wrong!

If someone crosses the road and gets run over because they didn't accept that a car was coming, it would be upsetting for me BUT it could have been easily avoided by them looking more carefully. It is highly regrettable that the got knocked down by the car but its is NOT unfair!



many passages CLEARLY state that God desperately wants us to turn to Him.

If God is all knowing then he knows the standard of evidence I require to believe something. He also knows that the bible is not sufficient evidence for me to believe.

He also knows what evidence is required for me to believe as a rational person. I believe in a lot of things that I have the evidence for, so it shouldn't be a difficult task for him to provide this evidence.

He refuses to provide that evidence to me, so he either doesn't care or is just likes sending rational people to hell.

 

[Robban]

If God is all knowing then he knows the standard of evidence I require to believe something. He also knows that the bible is not sufficient evidence for me to believe.

He also knows what evidence is required for me to believe as a rational person. I believe in a lot of things that I have the evidence for, so it shouldn't be a difficult task for him to provide this evidence.

He refuses to provide that evidence to me, so he either doesn't care or is just likes sending rational people to hell.

This may not be so good example, but assuming you have a job of work and you are paid once a month, at the end of each month.
Do you demand evidence that your employer will or can pay you your wage?
Or do you trust him that he can and will?
So, the question is, Do you require hard evidence before deciding anything in your life?

 

[Robban]

Re #225,
This may seem to be a contradiction to what I have posted earlier, re, Thomas, but thinking here of the words of many who say"Believe and follow Jesus"-
Well, that.s what Jesus said too, the first twelve he said. "Follow me"
So they did, all over the place, but most of the time they did not have a clue what he was talking about.
So how it is easier today, I don,t know.
But there is a difference between believing and doing, would reckon.

 

[Gadarene]

If God "forced" everyone into heaven, it would be no different from earth - there would be no point. Anyone can choose to be in heaven. You've already pointed out that based on the Biblical details, you do NOT want to be in heaven...I know you have a keen sense of injustice - surely it would be UNFAIR to make you go to heaven if you didn't want to be there?!

Perhaps, but that doesn't necessarily make it FAIR to lumber us with the alternative - eternity on fire.

Again, why should I be lit on fire over a disagreement? In what way is that a reasonable or fair punishment?

 

[Gadarene]

I am not making this up - read the words of Jesus for yourself...He is the one we will all answer to one day...you will NOT be answering to other Christians...

I made that point because you said:

"ALL we have to do is admit our guilt as sinners and come to faith in Him - that is ALL...is this really too much to ask?! It has been enough for many hundreds of millions of Christians throughout the last 2000 yrs."

Just because it was enough for you does not justify you assuming that it SHOULD be enough for everyone. We are all different and many of us have different standards before they feel they can honestly believe something.

I am not doubting it is an honest conclusion - its both an honest conclusion and the wrong conclusion.

So please now explain to us all why I deserve to be condemned to an eternity of painful punishment for making an honest mistake.

I might honestly decide the cross the road thinking its safe. It is really unfair if it proves I made an error of judgment and get run over? The car doesn't decide to avoid me because I made an honest (but errant) attempt to gauge how safe the road is!

You're neglecting to mention that the car is under the control of a driver.

Edit: And I notice you made the same analogy to tony. I can't help but wonder if this is the problem - even for an analogy that basic, you forgot to include any responsibility of the driver. God is the driver, and you completely ignored any role he has in this. Why do you not question God, Danny?

Do you think that maybe Jesus Christ should have be been born in every generation in history to be crucified again and again so that EVERYONE could see it first hand?

It would be a marked improvement.

IF IF IF the accounts of Jesus are accurate - everything we need to know has been clearly explained...

They are assertions. Claims. Not explanations. You forget the primary problem with accepting them is being convinced that they are true in the first place. Don't just keep insisting that we should do x because then we will be saved - you need to actually justify that they are true, with more than simply pointing out that lots of people believe in them, because that is not conclusive evidence for anything.

The "invitation" to the party is open to everyone. If you do not believe the invite is genuine or that the host of the party does not exist, then don't respond. But don't then complain of injustice and unfairness when others, working with the same invite and evidence as you did accept the invite and you miss out...

Of course I will, because these people evidently have different standards for what constitutes proof. Why should I be condemned because I am more skeptical than them? Why should I be condemned for using my GOD-GIVEN (if you're indeed correct) intelligence?

I would rather lose every argument to you here, but see you in heaven one day - if Jesus was who He said He was, that will ONLY happen through Him...

To stand any chance of that happening, you will surely need to not lose every argument here.

 

[Gadarene]

Would it upset me?...yes! But you have been presented with EXACTLY the same evidence as me. If its good enough for me, there is no excuse for you if you reject the evidence and then find out you were wrong!

Not at all. What if our standards for analysing evidence are better than yours? How would that then be fair?

No...there is no injustice here. YOU have decided NOT to accept the rescue available in Christ. It is free of charge and ANYONE can accept. It WOULD greatly upset me that you rejected this rescue package, but it is still your choice. If you had not been given the message of the rescue, that would be different, but you have!

So why did you/other Christians tell us then?

Seriously.

If that's true, why are you witnessing?

Thanks dude, you just totally trashed our odds

You and Gadarene have quite a fixation with the idea of God setting people on fire and gleefully watching them burn for eternity. This is a woeful distortion of the true context of the passages that describe hell and I think you both know it...there is no hint at all that God takes any pleasure in inflicting punishment of humanity - many passages CLEARLY state that God desperately wants us to turn to Him.

So he can provide a bit more evidence then can't he?

You have both said you do NOT want to go to heaven based of the character of God in the Bible. You would therefore be the FIRST to complain of unfairness if despite your "unbelief" you were FORCED to go to a heaven you never wanted in the first place!

Well that depends. If every gets to go to heaven that would be somewhat different if it was just I who got a free pass.

 

[Gadarene]

This may not be so good example, but assuming you have a job of work and you are paid once a month, at the end of each month.
Do you demand evidence that your employer will or can pay you your wage?
Or do you trust him that he can and will?
So, the question is, Do you require hard evidence before deciding anything in your life?

No, but then not all claims are created equal.

 

[ianb321red]

That's not actually what the quote means in context, but that's a very common misinterpretation.

yeah I know, but it's a particularly thought provoking (and famous) quotation and in certain situations it is certainly applicable.

Of course "other people" only has relevance to the individual identifying themselves in relation to these "other people" as "hell", but whatever way you apply the quote the under current is basically a dim view of existence (the "condemned" freedom of it..)

 

[Robban]

No, but then not all claims are created equal.

You are right.

 

[ianb321red]

T
Let me ask you another question:

Would you feel any guilt that you are sat in heaven having a lovely time, whilst others are being tormented?

Do you feel any guilt when you tuck in to your dinner this evening knowing that there are millions starving to death around the world?

 

[ianb321red]

Lets say in 200 years time you are in heaven and I am in hell, just because I wasn't presented with enough evidence to make me believe. Would it upset you at all to think of me being tortured for the rest of eternity?

I personally would be genuinely upset to think that anybody I've discussed Christianity on this forum, or have met in person; in fact anyone at all would suffer for eternity.

This is why it would be fundamentally immoral for any Christian not to tell other people what they believe.

If I was a scientist and I knew that an asteroid was on a collision course with this planet, would you be offended if I warned you and as many other people as possible? Or would you want to keep my belief (in this) to myself? Think about it logically - we're not creating stories to scare people; we're saying what we believe to be TRUE

Danny and myself are NOT on here to win arguments. At all. Anyone who disagrees with this simply does not understand our motivation.

We're on here to tell people what we believe to be true and to prevent people from rejecting the truth about Christ. Simple as that.

In this country you have no excuse when it comes to "evidence" unless you have serious mental/ cognitive disabilities. The argument from ignorance won't wash as Paul describes in Romans chapter 1:19-20:

" since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

 

[tonybeer]

Do you feel any guilt when you tuck in to your dinner this evening knowing that there are millions starving to death around the world?

Yes, a little.

If however I was sat next to a God that made those people starve just because they believed something different to me then I'd think that God was an absolute "insert choice word".

That God is your God.

 

[tonybeer]

I personally would be genuinely upset to think that anybody I've discussed Christianity on this forum, or have met in person; in fact anyone at all would suffer for eternity.

This is why it would be fundamentally immoral for any Christian not to tell other people what they believe.

Just because you warn me that I am about to walk into a house with a serial killer in, it doesn't mean that the killer suddenly doesn't have any moral responsiblity to not kill me.

I don't doubt you are trying to save me, but at the same time you are praising a God that you say will torture me for eternity.

 

[ianb321red]

Yes, a little.

If however I was sat next to a God that made those people starve just because they believed something different to me then I'd think that God was an absolute "insert choice word".

That God is your God.

Oh, so you blame a god that doesn't even exist for something that you can't actually take responsibility for yourself then?

In my opinion a sign of maturity is learning to grow up and take responsibility for your own actions - it's part of being an adult.

Obviously there are a lot of people out there that are technically adults, but still can't grasp the basic human concept of self-responsibility.

The reason why we have a problem with famine and poverty in certain countries is because people are greedy and selfish; NOT because of anything else.

This view of humanity is your view of humanity. You need to accept responsibility for your own actions rather than making excuses and pointing the finger at a god you claim you don't even believe in.

 

[Gadarene]

Oh, so you blame a god that doesn't even exist for something that you can't actually take responsibility for yourself then?

He used the word "if", Ian, "if" - conditional tense.

In my opinion a sign of maturity is learning to grow up and take responsibility for your own actions - it's part of being an adult.

Obviously there are a lot of people out there that are technically adults, but still can't grasp the basic human concept of self-responsibility.

The reason why we have a problem with famine and poverty in certain countries is because people are greedy and selfish; NOT because of anything else.

This view of humanity is your view of humanity. You need to accept responsibility for your own actions rather than making excuses and pointing the finger at a god you claim you don't even believe in.

He wasn't blaming God for current world hunger, he was extending your analogy to describe how he feels about hell.

 

[ianb321red]

Just because you warn me that I am about to walk into a house with a serial killer in, it doesn't mean that the killer suddenly doesn't have any moral responsiblity to not kill me.

You've missed the point.
If you don't go in the house you don't get killed. If no one goes in the house then no one gets killed.
Then there is no killer, right?

It's actually not a very good comparison actually.

A more apt comparison is as follows:

Do murderers deserve to go to prison for committing murder? If yes, then having the foreknowledge of this would prevent many people from murder IN ADDITION to it being a moral violation. Correct?
If someone murders a member of your family (God forbid) do they deserve to be punished? Do they deserve the death penalty? Does this judge passing the sentence or the person administering the electric chair become a murderer? Or are they fulfilling justice in light of a crime that needs to be punished?

I don't doubt you are trying to save me, but at the same time you are praising a God that you say will torture me for eternity.

As I've said before, I'm not praising a God because he tortures people in eternity.
If you believe that this could happen, then my best advice would be to understand more about how or why this is.

You really to understand what sin really is, and what God thinks of it.

Don't take any of this from me; read the bible for yourself and make up your own mind. But do it with an open mind - if you read the bible as if it is an academic text book you simply won't grasp the message it is conveying..

 

[Gadarene]

Do murderers deserve to go to prison for committing murder? If yes, then having the foreknowledge of this would prevent many people from murder IN ADDITION to it being a moral violation. Correct?
If someone murders a member of your family (God forbid) do they deserve to be punished? Do they deserve the death penalty? Does this judge passing the sentence or the person administering the electric chair become a murderer? Or are they fulfilling justice in light of a crime that needs to be punished?

Well, that's entirely the point, isn't it? Is the punishment proportionate?

Many people think hell is disproportionate punishment - infinite punishment for a finite slight.

As I've said before, I'm not praising a God because he tortures people in eternity.

But you are. That is what he does.