Question 3

[tonybeer]

You don't need to read up on Atheism. Just understand it is the lack of belief in something. Just like you don't believe it when I say I am sat here with 5 supermodels. Your lack of belief in my claim has no effect on how you view the world.

I am picking examples so I can understand what you are trying to say. I should be able to pick any example and you can tell me whether they are likely to go to heaven or not.

If you cannot do this then there is no point you preaching, as you don't know the criteria to get to heaven.

I am picking bad Christian vs better Atheist and asking who you would rather see go to heaven. The key point is the word better and I am saying this person treats other people much better than the Christian.

You haven't answered yet and I suspect you won't.

Belief in Jesus does not guarantee someone being a good person, or even being better than anyone else.


Tammi Estep stabbed her husband saying to the police "Jesus and Mary told me to kill him because he is Satan's spawn! Even if she had a mental illness, she definitely believed in Jesus, so according to you goes to heaven.


Slavery - How is that a much higher standard? It is only a higher standard than "you can kill them instantly".

I don't think Christians promote slavery, however the bible does. Instead Christians try and argue it doesn't mean what it says, or that it doesn't apply nowadays, like you just have. Why put it in the bible at all then, if the point of the bible is to teach Christians how to life their lives?

 

[All Souls]

Do all Christians believe the world started as described in Genesis?

Yes and no; the tricky thing is what do we mean by 'described'? Are we reading the text univocally, analogically, or equivocally? So I hold that Genesis describes that God created, not how he created. Others will see it differently.

 

[Robban]

Yes and no; the tricky thing is what do we mean by 'described'? Are we reading the text univocally, analogically, or equivocally? So I hold that Genesis describes that God created, not how he created. Others will see it differently.

I raise the bidding,Why did He create?

 

[Danny777]

I am picking bad Christian vs better Atheist and asking who you would rather see go to heaven. The key point is the word better and I am saying this person treats other people much better than the Christian.

You haven't answered yet and I suspect you won't.

Belief in Jesus does not guarantee someone being a good person, or even being better than anyone else.

Tammi Estep stabbed her husband saying to the police "Jesus and Mary told me to kill him because he is Satan's spawn! Even if she had a mental illness, she definitely believed in Jesus, so according to you goes to heaven.

I believe I have answered this (2 or 3 posts ago...). I said it is not for me to say who will or will not be in heaven. Only God knows who truly has accepted Jesus Christ as Saviour...we can only look at actions and we cannot judge the hearts of other people. Only God does and only Gods judgment will matter...

I pointed out that a Catholic priest who ritually abuses children is not acting in consistency with the teachings of Christ - neither is Tammi Estep in murdering her husband (its irrelevant what she is saying at the time!). To me, it seems very unlikely that in these two cases the individual had genuinely repented of sin and was trying to please God with their lives...do their actions appear to you to be consistent with the teaching of Jesus?! Rather than asking me, I think you can make your own mind up! On this basis, I would suspect they are not true Christians BUT its really not for me to say - ONLY God knows and ONLY God can judge...

Many of the questions you are asking me could easily be dealt if you would read John's gospel. You seem to be getting very confused with perceived teachings of the "church" as opposed to the teachings of Jesus Christ. If you have a genuine interest in learning re. heaven/hell etc, read the gospels - measure anything you hear from the church up against the teachings of Jesus Christ. As I've already said, I am no defender of the visible church. Jesus spoke abundantly about heaven and hell (as well as predicting corruption and false teaching WITHIN the church!). Don't trust me either - you can pick a Bible at any point and read for yourself!

 

[tonybeer]

do their actions appear to you to be consistent with the teaching of Jesus?!

It doesn't matter, only their belief in Jesus gets them into heaven. Actions don't make one bit of difference.Not everyone who believes in Jesus will want to follow his rules.

I'm not going off what the church says. Just what yourself and Ian have said. I dont go to church so would have no idea what they teach. I'd always assumed good acts got you to heaven in Christianity. All I am seeing is a roundabout way of saying the same thing.


I really, really want you to answer my question. Who would YOU rather go to heaven with - a terribly antisocial horrible Christian who believes in Jesus or a kind loving (and crucially better) Atheist? I don't care what you think God will do, I want to know which one YOU want to go to heaven with.

 

[Danny777]

I really, really want you to answer my question. Who would YOU rather go to heaven with - a terribly antisocial horrible Christian who believes in Jesus or a kind loving (and crucially better) Atheist? I don't care what you think God will do, I want to know which one YOU want to go to heaven with.

Naturally, my human response is that I would rather spend my time with a kind loving atheist - who would want to spend time with someone who is antisocial?! You are TOTALLY missing the point though and will not doubt take my answer out of context. You seem to be implying that the antisocial Christian is sinful and the kind atheist is sin-free. Jesus taught that EVERYONE is a sinner in Gods eyes and I think that obvious to anyone with an honest self-appraisal. You also seem to have a misunderstanding of what heaven is. Unfortunately, the kind loving atheist will not be there because he/she will still not be perfect in Gods eyes and the antisocial Christian will not be antisocial anymore...life in heaven will bear no resemblance to life at present on earth...

You have said "crucially better"...what standard are you using to compare them? God's requirement is clear...only perfection will do - both the kind atheist and the antisocial Christian are sinners - only one of them has had their sin "dealt with" in Gods eyes through faith in Jesus Christ.

It is easy to take my comments out of context, just like it is very easy to take verses of the Bible out of context - I have NEVER said or implied that ONLY works get anyone into heaven. I have tried to repeatedly explain that faith alone through Jesus Christ is the requirement for heaven (which is available to anyone, anytime) but good works will be a symptom that someone has genuine faith in Jesus, not the means of access to heaven. This does NOT means that Christians are perfect - far from it, but there is a BIG difference between a Christian "struggling" with sin, trying to live a live pleasing to God and a Roman Catholic priest who systematically abuses children...I'm amazed you can't see this...!

 

[tonybeer]

I didn't expect you to say anything else, but the problem is now you would rather the rules were different in this case.

Would you like to see the Atheist in heaven? If everyone gets "fixed" in heaven why not just let everyone in? Just the mere act of going to heaven would fix the Atheist as they'd now have the evidence needed. God wouldn't need to change them at all. This would be God showing kindness.

If I were a God I'd realise that I hadn't presented enough evidence for an Atheist to believe. I was therefore being totally unfair. And why would I care in the first place whether they believe or not?

Danny - would you condemn someone to hell just because they didn't believe in you, even IF you had given them loads of evidence? I bet you wouldn't as you seem to be a good person.


As an offshoot I think this aspect of Christianity, telling people they are sinners no matter what, is extremely damaging. It also lumps everyone into the same bracket and provides less incentive to do good things.
I'm sure you wouldn't keep telling your kids they were bad, no matter how hard they tried to be good as you'd probably end up mentally destroying them.

 

[Gadarene]

I don't really understand this paragraph.

Believing in Jesus is the criteria for "getting into heaven". This believe will then LEAD to trying to please God - they go hand in hand. You are picking the most EXTREME example possible re. Catholic priests and trying to play games.

That's precisely the point - because as explained it's still entirely possible for some heinous acts to be forgiven, while someone whose name isn't on the list but who is generally speaking a good person who finds it difficult to believe in Christ (and spare me the spiel on how you can't be a "good person" without your religion - everyone here knows what I mean) will be punished forever.

As for acts, that's another issue with the setup - it's claimed that acts don't matter towards salvation, but then people will turn around and claim that if you were really saved, you'd naturally want to do x,y and z - so in reality Christianity is still more legalistic than it claims to be.

This was directed ONLY towards the nation of Israel around 4,000 years ago and was a MUCH HIGHER standard of treatment than existed at the time for "slaves" with many other groups of people. For you to then make the link and accuse Christians of promoting slavery seems like a dishonest representation of the teachings of Jesus Christ. I am not an Israelite - I am a Christian. Please show me how Jesus Christ PROMOTED the use of slavery - you will also have to explain why Christians (trying to follow the teachings Jesus Christ) fought so tirelessly against slavery on conviction of their faith, if, as you are implying the Christian faith and slavery are clearly linked.

It's the same deity, for one - while Christians might nitpick over old covenants and new, it's still the same deity who gave an immoral commandment like that out. The fact that the standard is better does not mean it was a good one.

(Incidentally, a charge frequently and tiresomely levelled at atheists is that of being relativist - so I often use this topic to point out that Christians are just as capable of it when they're criticised)

Jesus didn't say much about slavery - but he didn't also say much about homosexuality either, and people are still vehemently opposed to that. So I think all that can really be concluded is that Christians on the whole are somewhat inconsistent on what they oppose at a given time and on what basis they do so.

You often accuse me of misunderstanding atheism - I admit this is case -you then go and quote the Bible at me TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT!!

Notice the "CONTEXT!" excuse is only used for things that make the Bible look bad

Can I suggest you also have misconceptions about believe in Jesus Christ. You have advised me to read up on atheism - maybe you should also read one of the gospel accounts if you really want to understand faith in Jesus Christ. At times it feels you are deliberately manipulating Bible passages to arrive at conclusions you probably know are not consistent with the Christian faith.

He's reading them no differently to how Christians did in the past.

 

[Gadarene]

You have said "crucially better"...what standard are you using to compare them? God's requirement is clear...only perfection will do - both the kind atheist and the antisocial Christian are sinners - only one of them has had their sin "dealt with" in Gods eyes through faith in Jesus Christ.

This is why I find the notion of sin rather sickening, because it equalises acts which are clearly not equal.

Are you honestly going to claim that an act like paedophilia is equivalent to a momentary bad thought about someone that you normally think well of? The consequences of such acts are vastly different.

This is the (rather obvious) standard being used - the consequences of the actions, which seem to be ignored entirely within Christianity.

It is easy to take my comments out of context, just like it is very easy to take verses of the Bible out of context - I have NEVER said or implied that ONLY works get anyone into heaven. I have tried to repeatedly explain that faith alone through Jesus Christ is the requirement for heaven (which is available to anyone, anytime) but good works will be a symptom that someone has genuine faith in Jesus, not the means of access to heaven. This does NOT means that Christians are perfect - far from it, but there is a BIG difference between a Christian "struggling" with sin, trying to live a live pleasing to God and a Roman Catholic priest who systematically
abuses children...I'm amazed you can't see this...!

What is the difference?

The priest is a Christian who struggles with sin. Or it's at least a possibility.

 

[Danny777]

I didn't expect you to say anything else, but the problem is now you would rather the rules were different in this case.

Would you like to see the Atheist in heaven? If everyone gets "fixed" in heaven why not just let everyone in? Just the mere act of going to heaven would fix the Atheist as they'd now have the evidence needed. God wouldn't need to change them at all. This would be God showing kindness.

If I were a God I'd realise that I hadn't presented enough evidence for an Atheist to believe. I was therefore being totally unfair. And why would I care in the first place whether they believe or not?

Ah...unfairness again... Put yourself in Gods shoes. Every human being disobeys God commandments, EVERYONE does. God is perfect and holy and cannot be in the presence of imperfection of any kind. Gods distances Himself from us for OUR protection. He tells us how to live a perfect life (the ten commandments is a good start). Whether we disobey a lot or a little, no-one keeps all His commandments all the time. He sends a messenger to tell us that this sin "problem" will led to a separation from Him. This messenger lives a perfect live (to show us how its done), performs breathtaking miracles (never repeated before or since by anyone else and to authenticate Himself and Gods messenger) and just to make sure we realize He is Gods messenger rises from the dead after a brutal unjust execution. This messenger tells us the deal re. heaven and hell. ALL we have to do is admit our guilt as sinners and come to faith in Him - that is ALL...is this really too much to ask?! It has been enough for many hundreds of millions of Christians throughout the last 2000 yrs.

Do you think that someone who ignores all of this should simply waltz into heaven as if nothing happened? Do you not think it FAIR that a person who places their faith in Him based on His claims and life should be rewarded for that belief?

Danny - would you condemn someone to hell just because they didn't believe in you, even IF you had given them loads of evidence? I bet you wouldn't as you seem to be a good person.

No. I probably wouldn't but I cannot see the big picture and have no appreciation for the true holiness of God. I trust Gods judgment far more than my own - I would make lots of mistakes! I did not create a perfect world that was ruined by the creatures I put in the world for their own enjoyment, send my own Son to DIE for them as a rescue, only for them to come to the conclusion that I didn't even exist in the first place!

Before I can answer the last question, you need to define "good person". What qualifies as "good"? Against what standard?

As an offshoot I think this aspect of Christianity, telling people they are sinners no matter what, is extremely damaging. It also lumps everyone into the same bracket and provides less incentive to do good things.
I'm sure you wouldn't keep telling your kids they were bad, no matter how hard they tried to be good as you'd probably end up mentally destroying them.

This final statement has no backing whatsoever by the actions of Christians does it? Christians generally DO try to do good things, don't they?! (please don't bring the Catholic priest thing again - we both agree that a true Christian should live a reasonably transparent life that displays an attempt to live a life pleasing to God...)

There needs to be a bit more balance to your picture of the character of God. I probably haven't done a great job with my posts - read John's gospel and then tell me if God sounds like someone who keeps telling us how bad we are in a destructive, unloving way. If this is the picture I've painted, its my mistake. The gospels themselves will do a far better job than me...

 

[Gadarene]

Ah...unfairness again... Put yourself in Gods shoes. Every human being disobeys God commandments, EVERYONE does. God is perfect and holy and cannot be in the presence of imperfection of any kind.

Except he "is" everywhere, apparently, including earth, full of sinful people.

So it seems that like Bill Clinton, it depends on what the definition of "is" is

Gods distances Himself from us for OUR protection. He tells us how to live a perfect life (the ten commandments is a good start). Whether we disobey a lot or a little, no-one keeps all His commandments all the time. He sends a messenger to tell us that this sin "problem" will led to a separation from Him. This messenger lives a perfect live (to show us how its done), performs breathtaking miracles (never repeated before or since by anyone else and to authenticate Himself and Gods messenger) and just to make sure we realize He is Gods messenger rises from the dead after a brutal unjust execution. This messenger tells us the deal re. heaven and hell. ALL we have to do is admit our guilt as sinners and come to faith in Him - that is ALL...is this really too much to ask?! It has been enough for many hundreds of millions of Christians throughout the last 2000 yrs.

And I think that's the problem - for as many it is NOT enough - and yet the Christians seem to think that because they accepted it on a particular basis, that everyone should.

And no, I don't see any reason to admit guilt over a concept that depends on a god that can't even be shown to exist. This is how I and many others respond to many things that can't be shown to exist (and Christians respond in the same way). We generally consider ourselves not beholden to anything that cannot be shown to exist or who merits being beholden too. Christianity/God is not exempt.

Do you think that someone who ignores all of this should simply waltz into heaven as if nothing happened? Do you not think it FAIR that a person who places their faith in Him based on His claims and life should be rewarded for that belief?

The entire setup is not fair. Why SHOULD someone be punished for not believing, if that's a honest conclusion? Why should we even be at risk of that in first place? Why create things that way?

No. I probably wouldn't but I cannot see the big picture and have no appreciation for the true holiness of God. I trust Gods judgment far more than my own - I would make lots of mistakes! I did not create a perfect world that was ruined by the creatures I put in the world for their own enjoyment, send my own Son to DIE for them as a rescue, only for them to come to the conclusion that I didn't even exist in the first place!

It's very easy to avoid such outcomes, if that's what you really want.

Don't create a giant DO NOT PRESS button in the middle of your paradise, for example.

Don't assume that 2000 year old second and third hand accounts will convince everyone - which should also come as no surprise to you if you're omniscient!

This final statement has no backing whatsoever by the actions of Christians does it? Christians generally DO try to do good things, don't they?! (please don't bring the Catholic priest thing again - we both agree that a true Christian should live a reasonably transparent life that displays an attempt to live a life pleasing to God...)

And they sometimes fail. That doesn't mean they aren't Christian. Why deny this?

You are objecting based on the magnitude of the sin. But you've just been saying that all sin is the same to god! You can't have it both ways.

 

[Danny777]

This is why I find the notion of sin rather sickening, because it equalises acts which are clearly not equal.

Are you honestly going to claim that an act like paedophilia is equivalent to a momentary bad thought about someone that you normally think well of? The consequences of such acts are vastly different.

This is the (rather obvious) standard being used - the consequences of the actions, which seem to be ignored entirely within Christianity.

What is the difference?

The priest is a Christian who struggles with sin. Or it's at least a possibility.

You are right to point out that FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE there is a definate hierarchy of sin. Of course, paedophilia has more earthly consequences than, say, shoplifting or a bad thought.

The problem is that you are looking at sin on a horizontal dimension as opposed to a vertical dimension. From Gods (vertical) perspective ALL sin is sin. If you compare two convicts: one is convicted for serial murder and the other is convicted for shoplifting (couldn't think of a less serious crime!). The facts remains that they are still BOTH convicts. How many lies do you have to tell to be a liar? How many times or what value of property do you have to steal to be thief? Jesus tell us that Gods definition of murder is hate and that Gods definition of adultery is lust! Whether we choose to accept it or not, this is Gods standard. Gods seems to be more interested in the attitude of our hearts than our actions that everyone else sees. Our condition before God (although maybe not in the eyes of those around us) is that we need a rescue from our sin and this was made possible for those who accept Jesus Christ. There is no discrimination or favouritism here - anyone can access this rescue.

By the way, this standard I've described above is surely a good thing for us - if we know God judges our motives more than our actions, what better incentive for trying to be "good"?!

Re. the priest who struggles with sin. Gods knows whether this priest is desperately attempting to live a holy life or whether the priest is using his position to gain access to vulnerable children to abuse them - we may not always be able to tell.

Incidentally, there are many passages that allude to the possibility that those in heaven (who have accepted Christ) will be rewarded for how good or bad their lives were and the ones in hell (who did not accept Christ) will receive punishment relative to how good or bad their lives were. However, hell will still be very bad and heaven will still be very good. I MUST STRESS that I may be wrong in this last paragraph and I'm happy to be corrected...

 

[Gadarene]

You are right to point out that FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE there is a definate hierarchy of sin. Of course, paedophilia has more earthly consequences than, say, shoplifting or a bad thought.

The problem is that you are looking at sin on a horizontal dimension as opposed to a vertical dimension. From Gods (vertical) perspective ALL sin is sin. If you compare two convicts: one is convicted for serial murder and the other is convicted for shoplifting (couldn't think of a less serious crime!). The facts remains that they are still BOTH convicts.

Analogy fails. We still can treat them reasonably as having committed crimes of differing seriousness and the degree of punishment administered reflects that.

How many lies do you have to tell to be a liar? How many times or what value of property do you have to steal to be thief? Jesus tell us that Gods definition of murder is hate and that Gods definition of adultery is lust! Whether we choose to accept it or not, this is Gods standard.

So you can't actually justify the standard or not, it's a case of "put up and shut up."

Well, I (and many others) say - why?

Even if it is futile to do so, I'll go to hell with my integrity, thanks very much, if it means I must reject an arbitrary and unjustified standard that is being imposed on all mankind. You have not given any justification as to HOW all sins are the same, merely asserted that God thinks they are and that's that. You can talk about our perspective and God's perspective all you want, but the fact remains that we as humans CAN qualify how some things are worse than others, but you cannot present how all these things are the same - only that God claims they are.

Gods seems to be more interested in the attitude of our hearts than our actions that everyone else sees. Our condition before God (although maybe not in the eyes of those around us) is that we need a rescue from our sin and this was made possible for those who accept Jesus Christ. There is no discrimination or favouritism here - anyone can access this rescue.

Of course there is. People have different standards of evidence and as already pointed out, have had different levels of evidence available to them. The system is already unbalanced.

By the way, this standard I've described above is surely a good thing for us - if we know God judges our motives more than our actions,
what better incentive for trying to be "good"?!

And every dictator in history has thought the same thing.

Re. the priest who struggles with sin. Gods knows whether this priest is desperately attempting to live a holy life or whether the priest is using his position to gain access to vulnerable children to abuse them - we may not always be able to tell.

Right - so please stop insisting that it's irrelevant.

Incidentally, there are many passages that allude to the possibility that those in heaven (who have accepted Christ) will be rewarded for how good or bad their lives were and the ones in hell (who did not accept Christ) will receive punishment relative to how good or bad their lives were. However, hell will still be very bad and heaven will still be very good. I MUST STRESS that I may be wrong in this last paragraph and I'm happy to be corrected...

That hardly makes it better.

Again, I have no wish to follow someone who lights people on fire over a disagreement.

And again, God would not have been the first dictator to have done so.

 

[Danny777]

Except he "is" everywhere, apparently, including earth, full of sinful people.

Gadarene, we just crossed posts. I have no time and will respond in full when I can, but to correct a misconception:

I am not convinced God is "everywhere" in the way you've described above. I see this world as a place God has "distanced" Himself from (because of sin) and He sent Jesus Christ to "bridge" the gap between us and God...

Anyway, gotta go...

 

[tonybeer]

Why should someone be rewarded for belief, rather than being more Jesus-like?

If everyone gets "corrected" and turned into a perfect person then of course I'd want every single person to go to heaven.

You can't even be totally certain that a God exists, yet you trust this over your own judgement?

When God created the universe he must already have known that he would have to send Jesus to save the world. If he is that concerned about people not believing in him he would have done more than just do something once.

My definition of good person: Someone who does not make life worse for other people, and ideally makes it better.

God is not the one telling people they are sinners. It is Christians telling people they are sinners.

Danny, in my opinion you are far more moral a person than the God you believe in.

 

[ianb321red]

Of course people can make the world a better place! People abolished slavery for example. It wasn't God (he seems to endorse it in the OT).

John Paul Sartre said "L'enfer, c'est les autres" Ok, this is a pretty extreme POV but Sartre in general took a pretty dim view on humanities ability to contend with their own freedom ("condemned to be free").

Do you know what the true meaning of the Christmas nativity story is? It is a story that says that mankind has screwed up completely, and now needs someone to bail them out. It's as simple as that.

Human history has shown continually that it's on a collision course to self destruct - ample evidence in world history to show this. yes, There are human achievements that have improved things I won't deny that, but when you put these small victories alongside the multitude of human created problems (war, greed famine, poverty, weapons, killing, persecution and so on) even someone with an IQ of 3 can see that man is absolutely incapable of making the world a better place.

The illusions of reason, rationality and progress are simply smokescreens that hide the real truth.

Jesus knew this. He remarked in Matthew 7:11 "If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children". Here Jesus is saying that although you are evil, you can do good - he's saying that we are basically bad but do good things from time to time.

This is in reality the OPPOSITE to what most people think about themselves. Islam also teaches the opposite on this (again another massive difference between Christianity and Islam). Most people think that they are good most of the time, and do bad things occasionally.

The heart of the Christian gospel is that we are all born with a natural bent to sin, and we cannot saves ourselves from this - we need a saviour. Psalm 51:5 says "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

The bible isn't the answer to our problems; it is not a rule book or reference book. It's also a very simple book; it simply describes what God's problem is (sin) and how He goes about dealing with His problem.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

John Paul Sartre said "L'enfer, c'est les autres" Ok, this is a pretty extreme POV but Sartre in general took a pretty dim view on humanities ability to contend with their own freedom ("condemned to be free").

That's not actually what the quote means in context, but that's a very common misinterpretation.

Human history has shown continually that it's on a collision course to self destruct - ample evidence in world history to show this. yes, There are human achievements that have improved things I won't deny that, but when you put these small victories alongside the multitude of human created problems (war, greed famine, poverty, weapons, killing, persecution and so on) even someone with an IQ of 3 can see that man is absolutely incapable of making the world a better place.

Are you saying I have an IQ of 1 or 2? That's fairly insulting, really. You may struggle to see the good that man can do but that doesn't mean everyone has the same problem.

The illusions of reason, rationality and progress are simply smokescreens that hide the real truth.

Pffft. Sounds clever but it's just noise.

Jesus knew this. He remarked in Matthew 7:11 "If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children". Here Jesus is saying that although you are evil, you can do good - he's saying that we are basically bad but do good things from time to time.

This is in reality the OPPOSITE to what most people think about themselves. Islam also teaches the opposite on this (again another massive difference between Christianity and Islam). Most people think that they are good most of the time, and do bad things occasionally.

That only holds true if you consider pretty much everything to be sinful. I'm far from convinced that that is the case.

The heart of the Christian gospel is that we are all born with a natural bent to sin, and we cannot saves ourselves from this - we need a saviour. Psalm 51:5 says "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Pffft again. What sin does a zygote commit through being conceived? It's patent nonsense which surely even you can see through.

 

[Danny777]

Why should someone be rewarded for belief, rather than being more Jesus-like?

How close to being "Jesus-life" should be good enough? Again, how many lies make someone a liar? How many acts of theft make someone a thief? (by theft, I am obviously including acts of stealing time from a boss, being dishonest re, tax returns, expenses etc...theft in our culture has simply changed form and become more "sophisticated" and is usually not seen by others).

No one can live to Jesus standards - how close is good enough? How many lies does one have to tell before they have "crossed the line"?! Only perfection will do, we CAN have that perfection imputed to us through Jesus...

If everyone gets "corrected" and turned into a perfect person then of course I'd want every single person to go to heaven.

"This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man[a] Christ Jesus." (1 Tim 2:3-5)

God wants everyone in heaven too...

You can't even be totally certain that a God exists, yet you trust this over your own judgement?

My judgment leads me to being certain that God exists...

My definition of good person: Someone who does not make life worse for other people, and ideally makes it better.

See below...

God is not the one telling people they are sinners. It is Christians telling people they are sinners.

"For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:22-24)

The Bible makes it clear that ALL have sinned...

Danny, in my opinion you are far more moral a person than the God you believe in.

Based on your definition above, I fail miserably. At times, I have unfortunately made peoples lives a lot worse than they were before through my actions...

It is impossible for God to be immoral...IF He is the creator of everything, morality is His creation. We cannot reach a level of morality higher than the creator of morality itself...

 

[tonybeer]

How close to being "Jesus-life" should be good enough? Again, how many lies make someone a liar? How many acts of theft make someone a thief? (by theft, I am obviously including acts of stealing time from a boss, being dishonest re, tax returns, expenses etc...theft in our culture has simply changed form and become more "sophisticated" and is usually not seen by others).



God wants everyone in heaven too...




It is impossible for God to be immoral...IF He is the creator of everything, morality is His creation. We cannot reach a level of morality higher than the creator of morality itself...

Apparently you can be completely un-Jesus like and still get to heaven. Sin doesn't matter and you can commit as much as you want as long as you believe in Jesus.

If God wanted everyone in heaven he would do so. However this would make a mockery of Christianity and the Church would fall apart, so they don't preach this.


This last one is faulty logic. Just because a being creates something, it doesn't mean it has to be moral, even if it creates morality. Just because you create a set of rules, it doesn't mean you have to follow them and a God would be under no obligation whatsoever to follow these rules.

For example: We can and do reach a level of morality higher than that of the OT, where God goes around killing everyone.

 

[Danny777]

Apparently you can be completely un-Jesus like and still get to heaven. Sin doesn't matter and you can commit as much as you want as long as you believe in Jesus.

Maybe, but you are NOT going to!! Why would a true Christian deliberately act as "un-Jesus like" as possible?

Please show me where the Bible teaches that is OK to going around sinning as much as you like?

If God wanted everyone in heaven he would do so. However this would make a mockery of Christianity and the Church would fall apart, so they don't preach this.

If God "forced" everyone into heaven, it would be no different from earth - there would be no point. Anyone can choose to be in heaven. You've already pointed out that based on the Biblical details, you do NOT want to be in heaven...I know you have a keen sense of injustice - surely it would be UNFAIR to make you go to heaven if you didn't want to be there?!

The reason the church does not preach this is because is it clearly not a teaching of Jesus Christ - unless you can show me where?