Question 2

[TimMorgan]

I think what you have to remember is that the bible is translated. 'Hell' is a Norse word from only about 1,000 years ago. The bible talks about Sheol, Hades, Tartarus, Gehenna, all these words translated as hell and lumped together. The modern doctrine of 'hell' is mass, hyped, pop religion.

That's a good point I guess i got carried away by the hype. What is your personal thoughts on hell

 

[Supernaut]

Alright so if hell is the absence of god are some atheist's already in hell. It seems the general consensus is that their is no literal hell. This seems like a direct contradiction to the bible or parts of it.

That depends on how one interprets the Bible and which Bible they read.

Most Christians I know follow god because they studied the bible (or they were just raised into it) do be blunt why do you believe in god? Did he speak to you?

I was raised into it which made me hate God (fundamentalist lutheran). It was after I got over my hatred that I realized that my hate for God was misplaced. After I questioned everything and formed my personal relationship with Christ I found that He was talking to me all along...I just wasn't listening. I could ramble on for days....but I won't.

 

[ebia]

Once again i must be blunt Why can you not

I just can't. I tried for a while and couldn't do it.

and what do you mean kind of

I mean not in the sense of literally hearing a voice, but in the sense of finding myself called to do so.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death"

The book of revelation is apocalyptic literature - coded, figurative, stuff.

"Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth"

Is part of a parable, parables are not literal descriptions of the things they are teaching about.

But even considering those two descriptions, which are very different, ought to make one question a literal reading.

 

[Supernaut]

But even considering those two descriptions, which are very different, ought to make one question a literal reading.

EXACTLY!!

 

[lismore]

That's a good point I guess i got carried away by the hype. What is your personal thoughts on hell

Well briefly, I find the idea of people buring for ever to be horrible, enough to give you nightmares or skitzophrenia if you thought about it enough. To punish someone eternally for the mistakes of a few years, doesnt seem right and doesnt seem to fulfill any purpose except sadistic revenge.

I also believe that if the church believed most people were going to hell then they would be out on the streets warning people 24/7. Only a very few do that. IMO the majority of Christains dont believe in hell or dont care their neighbour is going. If anyone would deserve hell it would be those who know of its existence and didnt warn others how to escape, i.e 99% of the church.

My belief on 'hell' is still forming but I am sure the modern pop doctrine on hell is too hideous to be true.

 

[TimMorgan]

I just can't. I tried for a while and couldn't do it.



I mean not in the sense of literally hearing a voice, but in the sense of finding myself called to do so.


The book of revelation is apocalyptic literature - coded, figurative, stuff.

Is part of a parable, parables are not literal descriptions of the things they are teaching about.

But even considering those two descriptions, which are very different, ought to make one question a literal reading.

That is absolutely true. I should have thought of that I apologize. Sorry to press but what part of life without god felt wrong to you. How did god indirectly talk to you. if you feel uncomfortable answering please don't

 

[TimMorgan]

Well briefly, I find the idea of people buring for ever to be horrible, enough to give you nightmares or skitzophrenia if you thought about it enough. To punish someone eternally for the mistakes of a few years, doesnt seem right and doesnt seem to fulfill any purpose except sadistic revenge.

I also believed that if the church believed most people were going to hell then they would be out on the streets warning people 24/7. Only a very few do that. IMO the majority of Christains dont believe in hell or dont care their neighbour is going.

My belief on 'hell' is still forming but I am sure the modern pop doctrine on hell is too hideous to be true.

That sounds very reasonable and rational. unfortunately the alternative that people don't care almost sounds as likely.

 

[TimMorgan]

That depends on how one interprets the Bible and which Bible they read.



I was raised into it which made me hate God (fundamentalist lutheran). It was after I got over my hatred that I realized that my hate for God was misplaced. After I questioned everything and formed my personal relationship with Christ I found that He was talking to me all along...I just wasn't listening. I could ramble on for days....but I won't.

1. how did you get over your hatred
2. how did you form the relationship what made you start beliving in god
3. please do ramble on I want to know peoples stories

 

[lismore]

That sounds very reasonable and rational. unfortunately the alternative that people don't care almost sounds as likely.

Some people dont care it is true. God would care though.

How I found God was through, I believe the love of God and an experience with the Holy Spirit. It was many years later before I heard all the stuff about sins and hell and church offerings. God is real, I have no doubts about that. I just question some of the crueller teachings.

Even as a Christian some people tell me I could loose my salvation and go to hell if I did x,y,z, and didnt do a,b,c. Didnt give enough money, go to enough meetings etc. Its not just non-Christians that are threatened with hell, its Christians too! Controlled and threatened with eternal torture!

The bible says that God is love, there is no fear in love because perfect love drives out all fear. Even as a Christian I sit and listen to some of the preachers ranting about hellfire and Im scared. Thats why I have trouble with it.

God isnt your enemy, or a vengeful monster. He's an awesome creator, has unlimited love and power and doesnt want anyone to perish. God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son into the world to help and save the even poorest, most lowly folk in society.

 

[TimMorgan]

Some people dont care it is true. God would care though.

How I found God was through, I believe the love of God and an experience with the Holy Spirit. It was many years later before I heard all the stuff about sins and hell and church offerings. God is real, I have no doubts about that. I just question some of the crueller teachings.

Even as a Christian some people tell me I could loose my salvation and go to hell if I did x,y,z, and didnt do a,b,c. Didnt give enough money, go to enough meetings etc. Its not just non-Christians that are threatened with hell, its Christians too! Controlled and threatened with eternal torture!

The bible says that God is love, there is no fear in love because perfect love drives out all fear. Even as a Christian I sit and listen to some of the preachers ranting about hellfire and Im scared. Thats why I have trouble with it.

God isnt your enemy, or a vengeful monster. He's an awesome creator, has unlimited love and power and doesnt want anyone to perish. God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son into the world to help and save the even poorest, most lowly folk in society.

why are you convinced that he is real what convinced

 

[lismore]

why are you convinced that he is real what convinced

There is a branch of Christianity called charismatic/pentecostal? Have you ever heard of it. They emphasise experiential parts of Christinity, you know like stuff you can feel and see. Healing, prophecy, Holy Spirit, tongues all that stuff. Some of it is controversial, some fakes creep in, some wierd, but some real that cannot be explained away

But I wasnt looking for any of it, I just had a supernatural experience at a youth meeting. A couple of times since too!

 

[Supernaut]

1. how did you get over your hatred
2. how did you form the relationship what made you start beliving in god
3. please do ramble on I want to know peoples stories

I had a hard time growing up understanding the concept of a loving God who was prepared his creation into the fiery depths of Hell. It was nonsenical. Why would God create my brother to be gay then cast him away to burn for eternity? Why would God tell me to love my neighbor but then command me to judge my neighbor(typical Fundie stuff)? Why would God create a world so filled with anger, hatred, violence..etc etc and say it was out of love? I became very angry and said screw God. I walked away from Him without hearing His side of the issue. I was under the false assumption that the Church was His answer.

I stepped back from Church and God. Actually I was kicked out for supporting my brother against the Churches demand that he seek "conversion therapy" to cure his homosexuality.

I started hanging out with the very people I snubbed my nose at as a Fundie (ie Pagans/Atheists/Buddhists/Homosexuals etc etc) and realized that instead of going to the Church for Christ, I needed to look at myself and my surroundings for Christ. I began a long "soul searching" to figure out what I believed in. The results of the soul searching led me right back to Christ.

I began slowly going to some other Churches. Nothing fit...so I just sat and read the Bible for myself again. It made more sense without so much of the literalist viewpoint. I instead meditated on what I had read and found that if I listened, He put the pieces together for me.

Just when I thought I had it all figured out, I realized that I had it all backwards (fundie teachings). I had to understand that we will never have it figured out. God cannot be put into a box or a book...He is much much bigger than that.

Ultimately, the hatred passed with time.

I started to open my mind to various ideas. What if hell didn't exist? What if Christ was more compassionate than I had been taught? What if the Church was wrong? What if there were more than one path?

I also began reading the works of C.S. Lewis, Marcus Borg, Stephen Harris, Paul Young.

The best thing is that He led me to an awesome Church. The UCC.

So in a nutshell...I was a whiteboard covered with the writings of Fundamentalism and Christ came along and erased me...and left me blank. Slowly He is letting me write down what I need to know; free to erase things along the way if I make a mistake.

 

[ebia]

Sorry to press but what part of life without god felt wrong to you.

That's not what I meant. I simply was unable to not know that God exists, so in the end I decided I may as well stop trying to disbelieve and respond to him instead.

How did god indirectly talk to you. if you feel uncomfortable answering please don't

Its not that I feel uncomfortable, but how do you explain a sense of vocation? It's like trying to explain colour to someone blind from birth - where do you start?

 

[DeanM]

Alright so if hell is the absence of god are some atheist's already in hell.

If there is a hell, I see it as happening in the afterlife as a place that is distant from God. Atheists who are alive are no closer to hell than the rest of us. After we die, I believe, we will see God's glory and we will either go to Him or we won't. I'm gonna go. Wouldn't you?

It seems the general consensus is that their is no literal hell.

There are many views of hell. I dunno how much consensus you'll find.

This seems like a direct contradiction to the bible or parts of it.

It's impossible to live without contradicting parts of the bible. Whatever choices you make, you're in keeping with one bit while violating another.

I've stopped worrying about that a long time ago.

Everyone cherry picks their scriptures. Even conservatives.

Most Christians I know follow god because they studied the bible (or they were just raised into it) do be blunt why do you believe in god?

I was raised to believe in God.

Did he speak to you?

Not yet, but I have been "moved" by the Holy Spirit a few times, and WOW! It's a real eye-opener. (And I'm not even a whacko!)

Why choose him rather than say Shiva or Buddha

Cuz my parents were Christians and it was how I was raised. I don't know enough about any other major religions to possibly convert, and I'm too lazy to put the effort in.

Also, I think Jesus made some excellent points on how to live. I love Jesus too much now to give up on Him.

 

[[serious]]

Considering the range of historical jewish/christian interpretations of the afterlife, I find it rather silly to treat the idea that ghandi might not burn in torment for eternity as some sort of ultimate blasphemy. The fear and hatred of universalism is just weird.

 

[DavinMochrie]

(And I'm not even a whacko!)

Realllllllllyyyy???? Are you suuuuurrreee>>>>>???

 

[[serious]]

Alright so if hell is the absence of god are some atheist's already in hell. It seems the general consensus is that their is no literal hell. This seems like a direct contradiction to the bible or parts of it. Most Christians I know follow god because they studied the bible (or they were just raised into it) do be blunt why do you believe in god? Did he speak to you? Why choose him rather than say Shiva or Buddha


(if i didn't answer you sry i will try to get around to it they're a lot of responses)

No more contradictory than other views of the afterlife:
"The dead do not praise Yahweh, nor do any that go down into silence."
"When his breath departs he returns to his earth; on that very day his thoughts perish."
"so man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake, or be aroused out of his sleep."
"For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust; again."

Of course, this is just the verses that reflect one of the understandings of death. I could come up with a similar list that would support eternal life only for the saved and complete nothingness for the unsaved. Likewise I could show a list supporting the current mainstream view of heaven and hell.

The issue of what warrants salvation is similarly sticky with lists of verses that support various views.

I view the insistence on one particular view to the exclusion of others to be theologically troublesome. Whatever lengths we go to judging others on their understanding of these matters we will surely be held to ourselves. Do we wish to stake so much on interpretations that require us to discount or explain away so many contradictory passages? Should anyone be so sure of their own interpretations that they set such a measuring stick for themselves?

 

[AzA]

I view the insistence on one particular view to the exclusion of others to be theologically troublesome. Whatever lengths we go to judging others on their understanding of these matters we will surely be held to ourselves. Do we wish to stake so much on interpretations that require us to discount or explain away so many contradictory passages? Should anyone be so sure of their own interpretations that they set such a measuring stick for themselves?

As I have said many a time: should I drop down dead in 20 minutes, and "wake" to find myself staring into the face of Thor -- what am I going to be able to do about it?

In the meantime, there are many beliefs that we can't verify and that nevertheless have consequences for the way we perceive the world and live in it. On that basis, beliefs matter: some actions flow more smoothly from some beliefs than from others.

If I believe a Hindu is on God's watch list for her hindu convictions, and I also believe "time is short," then I'll orient myself to her in a certain way in the time we have together. I might spend a lot of energy trying to scratch at her convictions in the hope that she'll get off God's watch list, I might assume that she's a lost cause and completely ignore her, or I might assume that she has no hope in the next round so I might as well be nice to her in this round.

If those are my premises, it's highly highly unlikely that I'll even think about asking what her convictions might be able to teach me. After all -- why would I want to learn from someone God will have no time for?

So... beliefs are not assured. But they are nevertheless important.

 

[dies-l]

I am chiming in a bit late here, but here are some of my thoughts:

On hell -- I do believe in hell, but I don't believe that hellfire-and-brimstone-style evangelism is particularly effective or worthwhile. Part of the reason that I believe this is that I don't claim to know who will inhabit hell, so I have no basis for concluding that any particular individual needs to have the hell scared out of them. More importantly, however, is that I see one of the faults of modern evangelicalism is its excessive emphasis on individual salvation and condemnation. I read the Scriptures as teaching that God's ultimate plan is to restore the earth to the perfection he intended it to be at its Creation. He intends for humankind to be reconciled to him, such that we will live in every moment according to His will, not by coercion or compulsion, but because of our desire to do so. Because God loves us, He always extends to complete freedom, even the freedom to reject Him. Ultimately, this perfectly restored Creation cannot coexist with human freedom if some people choose to use their freedom to resist God. Thus, it is necessary that those who make that choice inevitably choose not to be a part of the restored Creation, and live eternally separate from God. Whether that results in a state of eternal torment, simply a state of non-sentience, or some other type of exitsence, I do not have firm beliefs. However, I do believe that universalism is inconsistent with any form of Christianity that accepts human freedom as an essential consequence of God's love.

On evolution -- I do believe that the Bible is authoritative, but I am entirely convinced that the Bible contains several different types of literary expression, including history, biography, allegory, poetry, wisdom mythology, legend, and othes forms of fictional and non-fictional storytelling. I also believe that, due to the nature of ancient thought, the lines are not always firmly drawn as to where one literary form begins and another ends. Thus, we look to various contextual clues to make such determinations. Many such clues point to the fact that the opening chapters of Genesis are not-historical. Thus, when science overwhelmingly concludes that the earth is billions of years old and that all life is derived from natural processes, I see nothing in Scripture to suggest that the scientists are wrong.

On homosexuality -- Perhaps, homosexuality in all its forms is sinful. Perhaps, not. If it is a sin, it is one that I am not tempted by. Thus, I don't spend all that much time deliberating on that topic. This seems a better topic to be discussed by those for whom it is a personal issue.

On faith -- I went through a period in my life during which I was quite apathetic toward God. I didn't believe or disbelieve; I just didn't care or think about it all that much. I went through a period of struggle with various issues, not the least of which was alcoholism. When I began to face these issues, those who guided me through the early phases of my recovery were men and women of faith. They told me that God had restored them to sanity when they had been in my place. Despite much resistance, I eventually came to a place to give faith a try. My first sincere prayer went something like this, "God, I don't know that I believe that you exist, but I am willing to if you are able to help me." After that prayer, I became aware that I was not alone in my struggle, and it became easier. I have been drug and alcohol free for 5 1/2 years now, and with God's help, I have made significant headway in working through other issues in my life, such as depression, self-centeredness, anger, envy, consumerism, and others.

 

[TimMorgan]

But I wasnt looking for any of it, I just had a supernatural experience at a youth meeting. A couple of times since too!

Could You describe it a little more I always have a hard time believing supernatural experiences but i've never really had a discussion about it.