Question 2

[TimMorgan]

Hello I have several questions I was recently at the conservative christians forum and was under the impression that nonchristians go to hell. I was informed that not all christians believe this. Is this true? What are your thoughts on other things abortion homosexuality etc

 

[b.hopeful]

I'm a prochoice, pro gay marriage Christian that believe God loves all of creation...and I do mean ALL. I do not believe in a literal hell.

 

[DeanM]

Hi Tim, and thanks for coming to join us!

I found Tim over in CC, and he asked a similar question and received the "standard" Christian welcome, which was pretty much to stomp on the interloper. I PMed him and linked WWMC forum so he could perhaps get a better idea what the people here think. BHopeful actually had the guts to post in CC and tell Tim about us as well. Man that takes some guts. Good job, B!

Welcome Tim!

(I'll answer your questions in another post)

 

[DeanM]

Hello I have several questions I was recently at the conservative christians forum and was under the impression that nonchristians go to hell.

I don't believe that for one second.

I'm aware of the scriptures that some Christians will cite to back up that kind of supremacy. The fact is that one would need to twist the gospel pretty hard to come to that conclusion, and do so while ignoring a virtual avalanche of other scriptures that shows God to be merciful and accepting.

What are your thoughts on other things abortion homosexuality etc

Abortion is a woman's right to make decisions based on her personal beliefs. If she is against abortion, she shouldn't have one. If she doesn't have beliefs that prohibit abortion, then she is free to make the decision based on other circumstances such as the local laws.

Homosexuality is a naturally occuring orientation. I believe God made every one of us to have a value in His eyes. We are told not to judge others. We are told to love our neighbors. And we certainly should not be harrassing anyone over their sexual orientations or gender identites.

To do so, IMHO, is not what Christians have been taught.

 

[bodhitree]

Hello I have several questions I was recently at the conservative christians forum and was under the impression that nonchristians go to hell. I was informed that not all christians believe this. Is this true? What are your thoughts on other things abortion homosexuality etc

Welcome!

As a liberal Christian, I don't make any judgments about where *anyone* goes, ever. I believe that God is just and merciful, and I know He is going to do what He sees fit. I try to be just as Jesus instructed us mere mortals to be... we are to not judge and love all people as we love ourselves (because we're all sinners).

I also know that God works in ways we cannot understand, so in terms of the non-Christians going to hell question, I can say, I dont know, I dont know what happens to them, but I *feel* that if they are good people, then God will be just and merciful to them. I have faith.

In terms of gay marriage and abortion, these are political issues. Am I gay? No. Do I abort babies? No, and I dont think I ever could.

Do I think everyone should be like me? No.

So, I think that our government should NOT tell people how to live, if gays want a civil union or married in a church that accepts them, then that is their right as human beings, and my religion and any other should not be able to control them. Its seperation of church and state, and it protects me, and it should protect them too.

In terms of abortion, thats a sticky topic. Although, because most people do it now anyway whether its legal or not, I feel like if there were clinics to make it safer, then it would benefit everyone in the long run. Women have been having abortions since Jesus' time. It has never been safe, and honestly, women are not going to stop having them just because someone shakes their finger at them.

Hopefully that helps!

 

[Supernaut]

Hello I have several questions I was recently at the conservative christians forum and was under the impression that nonchristians go to hell. I was informed that not all christians believe this. Is this true? What are your thoughts on other things abortion homosexuality etc

Welcome Tim!!

I personally do not subscribe to the notion of hell. It makes not a lick of sense to even be in existence.

Also, Christ sits on a "mercy" seat, not a "judgement" seat. With that said, I believe that one way or another, as Christ said, "every knee shall bow". How will that happen if He sends the majority of humans to hell?

As far as abortion, it is a personal choice for a woman to make, not a man. The Gov. has no place making such decisions for woman and neither does the Church.

As far as gay marriage, if we're all children of God, how can we sit back and deny equal rights to anyone and feel just in doing so? Citing only a few poorly translated verses in Scripture hardly justifies these actions.

 

[DeanM]

I hope these answers do not make you think we cannot have any good debates in here . . .

Peace~

 

[TimMorgan]

I hope these answers do not make you think we cannot have any good debates in here . . .

Peace~

On the contrary this forum seems like a very rational group of individuals and I very much intend to have more conversations. I also have several more questions. Do you believe in the bible. Well of course you don't take an absoulutly set in stone definition but which parts do you agree with if any? Also do you accept with evolution?

 

[TimMorgan]

Also if there is no hell where do bad men go or are there bad men?

 

[DavinMochrie]

Do you believe in the bible.

I don't have to believe in it... because a copy of two is on my bookshelf. It's a real book to me!

And it's a book, that was written by men.

 

[Supernaut]

On the contrary this forum seems like a very rational group of individuals and I very much intend to have more conversations. I also have several more questions. Do you believe in the bible. Well of course you don't take an absoulutly set in stone definition but which parts do you agree with if any? Also do you accept with evolution?

I believe in the Bible as a written response by man to God. I prefer the metaphorical approach to the majority of scripture. I believe it's extremely important to "love thy neighbor". Darwinian evolution? Theistic evolution? To which are you refering?

I (for now) associate more closely with progressive creationism.

 

[lismore]

Hello

Hey Tim

Liked the Godfather, great movie!

There's another thread on hell that might interest you:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7394520/

Re: homosexuals, I wouldnt treat them any different from anyone else. Just try to be welcoming and friendly to them. Not my place to judge or moralise on anyone but myself.

Re: Abortion, my views are a little different from the other posters on the thread so far. I would say pro-choice should extend to the embryo and its right to life, if you see what I mean. But not starting any debates here!

Nice to meet you

 

[ebia]

Hello I have several questions I was recently at the conservative christians forum and was under the impression that nonchristians go to hell.

Scripture and Jesus, and therefore presumably God, seem a lot more interested in the Kingdom of God, i.e. what God is doing to put the world to rights, than the fate of those who choose not to be part of that. Christians ought, therefore, to show that emphasis.

That said, if the world is to be put right justice does need to be done - that is, evil does need to be dealt with, and all who are to be part of the Kingdom need to be transformed for that. Scripture and Jesus both seem to imply, not implausibly, that some will continue to refuse that. Their fate is described in various metaphors and phrases "thrown on the smoldering rubbish heap of Jerusalem", "thrown as chaff on the winnowing fire (whosh)", "eternal destruction (beautiful oxymoron)", and so on. Taking those selectively literally (take the fire bit, and ignore the fact that chaff is burned nearly instantly) and mixing in some other stuff, via some medieval paintings and literature leads to the standard concept of hell.

A better way of thinking about that alternative is in CS Lewis' The Great Divorce but one needs to read the story to get the idea - translating the narrative to a concept looses too much. But on a similar vein one way of thinking suggested tentatively by Tom Wright is that people become like that which they worship, so ultimately if one continues to worship other than God one becomes less and less like him until there is no image of God left - one is no longer human.

Is this true? What are your thoughts on other things abortion

Loss of a human life is always a bad thing, but legislation is not always the best way of dealing with it.

homosexuality etc

Scripture seems to indicate that sex outside of marriage falls short of God's purpose, and that marriage is only between people of complementary genders. But, it also seems to me that a loving, permanent, faithful relationship is always closer to God's purposes than temporary, promiscous or unfaithful ones, that I've no business judging anyone unless put in a position where I am forced to, and that Christians need to work out how to apply the same balance of clarity about God's ideal and pastoral care in a world that falls short of that ideal that we manage to do when it comes to divorce. Since there seem to be more than enough people talking about what that ideal is, I would fall strongly on the pastoral side of the scales.

 

[ebia]

Do you believe in the bible.

Short answer "yes", slightly longer answer "... but it depends on what you mean by that".

Well of course you don't take an absoulutly set in stone definition but which parts do you agree with if any?

To paraphrase the letter to Timothy, "it's all useful", but I haven't quite worked out how I'm supposed to use the instructions for building a tabernacle.

Also do you accept with evolution?

Over and over scripture talks about YHWH using his created order to achieve his purposes. I see absolutely no reason to suddenly think that when Genesis talks about him creating it suddenly means he did it "magically". So, yes.

 

[AzA]

I was recently at the conservative christians forum and was under the impression that nonchristians go to hell. I was informed that not all christians believe this. Is this true? What are your thoughts on other things abortion homosexuality etc

It's true that not all Christians believe that nonChristians go to hell. Some don't believe they go at all. Some don't believe they go by default. Some don't believe anyone "goes to hell" because they don't believe hell is a space for one to relocate to.

There are other questions tied up in this, which you may already have thought of:
Is man mortal?
Is he mortal with an immortal genie on the inside?
Is he really immortal with a mortal casing (body)?
Is this life our one shot?
Is this life one of two shots, or many?
Are we here to get something right, and if so, what?
What is judgment?
What's the criteria?
What is moral and who decides?
Is there a difference between consequence and punishment?
Is there a difference between punishment and discipline?
And what do these answers say about God?

We could go on for a while -- but these are some of the questions that get answered in the background of people's view on hell.

I've never had an abortion, but I know people who have. By all accounts it's a horrific experience. I've never miscarried either, and know people who have, and I understand that's horrific too. Abortions, miscarriages, stillbirths, having to choose between mother's life and child's life -- these aren't experiences I'd seek out. I think with all the high-pitched public sphere rhetoric, people tend to overestimate others' willingness to abort, and also underestimate both the difficulty of choosing and the trauma that results whatever choice is made.

I am highly, highly sympathetic. Same goes for euthanasia cases. Even something as "simple" as deciding to turn a machine off can take a family weeks. Desperate situations, and my strongest inclination is to care.

 

[AzA]

I know we haven't gotten to the "compare your answers to the person on your right" part yet but I'm so excited.

To paraphrase the letter to Timothy, "it's all useful", but I haven't quite worked out how I'm supposed to use the instructions for building a tabernacle.

That's what I say! It's all good for something, but "good for something" doesn't necessarily mean imitation.

When you working inductively, or from cases, the easy part is reading the case. A little bit harder is understanding the case. The absolute hardest part is figuring out what's transferable to other cases, what's not transferable, why/why not, and what the costs and benefits of given actions might be.

...one way of thinking suggested tentatively by Tom Wright is that people become like that which they worship, so ultimately if one continues to worship other than God one becomes less and less like him until there is no image of God left - one is no longer human.

This sounds like the ultimate dehumanization, and I'm pretty sure we could chat about it and its internal logic for ages.

 

[TimMorgan]

Alright so if hell is the absence of god are some atheist's already in hell. It seems the general consensus is that their is no literal hell. This seems like a direct contradiction to the bible or parts of it. Most Christians I know follow god because they studied the bible (or they were just raised into it) do be blunt why do you believe in god? Did he speak to you? Why choose him rather than say Shiva or Buddha


(if i didn't answer you sry i will try to get around to it they're a lot of responses)

 

[ebia]

Alright so if hell is the absence of god are some atheist's already in hell. It seems the general consensus is that their is no literal hell. This seems like a direct contradiction to the bible or parts of it.

Does it? Which bits?

Most Christians I know follow god because they studied the bible (or they were just raised into it)

I know one or two people who have come to faith through reading the bible, but most come to faith through relationships.

do be blunt why do you believe in god?

Because I can't not.

Did he speak to you?

Kind of.

 

[TimMorgan]

Does it? Which bits?


I know one or two people who have come to faith through reading the bible, but most come to faith through relationships.



Because I can't not.


Kind of.

Once again i must be blunt Why can you not and what do you mean kind of. not meaning any disrespect. Also

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death"

"Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth"

perhaps hell includes being isolated from god but it seems to be implying more than that

 

[lismore]

This seems like a direct contradiction to the bible or parts of it.

I think what you have to remember is that the bible is translated. 'Hell' is a Norse word from only about 1,000 years ago. The bible talks about Sheol, Hades, Tartarus, Gehenna, all these words translated as hell and lumped together. The modern doctrine of 'hell' is mass, hyped, pop religion.