• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Quakers/Mennonites - Is it wrong to serve

Status
Not open for further replies.

ZiSunka

It means 'yellow dog'
Jan 16, 2002
17,006
284
✟46,267.00
Faith
Christian
Cright said:
I know the bible says thou shalt not kill..
but it also says an eye for an eye...

How I think that justice (war on terror due to attacks on US) is MUCH different than killing.

Just curious to see your view...

God Bless,
Carina
there are only two kinds of people Carina, the saved and the unsaved. The saved are your brothers and sisters in Christ, and you'd never want to kill them, would you? Killing the unsaved condemns them to hell, and you'd never want to do that either, would you?

Here's what the Bible says about "an eye for an eye":

Jesus's words:
Matthew 5:38-42 "You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I tell you, don't resist an evildoer. On the contrary, if anyone slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. As for the one who wants to sue you and take away your shirt, let him have your coat as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to the one who asks you, and don't turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. He said we are supposed to be loving toward our enemies. Killing them is not loving. You can't love someone by killing him, even if he has killed your family first.

The old "eye for an eye" thing is from Hamurabi's code, not from the Bible. God NEVER ordained that we should see revenge, in fact, he made it clear over and over and over that HE is the one that will avenge us and that we are not to do it ourselves.
 
Upvote 0

Gold Dragon

Senior Veteran
Aug 8, 2004
2,134
125
49
Toronto, Ontario
✟25,460.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
lambslove said:
The old "eye for an eye" thing is from Hamurabi's code, not from the Bible.
Great post lambslove!

Slight correction but the "eye for an eye passage" is found in Exodus 21:20-26 as seebs quoted in post #13. It is used as a measure of fair compensation for judges, but is often abused as justification for revenge.
 
Upvote 0

ZiSunka

It means 'yellow dog'
Jan 16, 2002
17,006
284
✟46,267.00
Faith
Christian
You're right Gold Dragon, Exodus 21:20-26 is talking about the punish not exceeding the crime, not a justification for war. It's about NOT taking revenge:
Exodus 21:20-26
[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]21:20 "When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod, and the slave dies under his abuse, the owner must be punished. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]21:21 However, if the slave can stand up after a day or two, the owner should not be punished because he is his [owner's] property.

[/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]21:22 "When men get in a fight, and hit a pregnant woman so that her children are born [prematurely], but there is no injury, the one who hit her must be fined as the woman's husband demands from him, and he must pay according to judicial assessment. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]21:23 If there is an injury, then you must give life for life, [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]21:25 burn for burn, bruise for bruise, wound for wound.

[/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]21:26 "When a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave and destroys it, he must let the slave go free in compensation for his eye. [/font]


It's interesting that it says, " you must GIVE life for life, eye for eye..." instead of "TAKE life for life..." That implies that the guilty party voluntarily lays down his life if he has taken a life, or his eye if he has taken an eye. It's also interesting that these only seem to apply when the life or eye or whatever are taken as an act of violence, and not the result of an accident. Seems God doesn't like violence...
 
Upvote 0

Crazy Liz

Well-Known Member
Oct 28, 2003
17,090
1,106
California
✟23,305.00
Faith
Christian
Cright said:
before anyone tries to rip my head off further...

I see I posted after you did, and I'm sorry. :o

I'm definatly NOT where the buck stops when it comes to justice.. but I won't look the other way if someone slaps my family member.. a nation should not look the other way and let people murder (yes I know which word I'm using this time) our countrymen.

okay this confuses me... sorry.

This is where Seebs and I differ a bit. He is a Quaker and a pacifist. My background is Mennonite, and I lean more toward nonresistance.

I think God does ordain governments to use the power of the sword as a check on evil, especially violence. Therefore, although I am not in favor of the death penalty for other reasons, I acknowledge that it is within the range of power a government might legitimately exercise. Just as I think theoretically a government could justly impose and execute capital punishment, I think theoretically a just war might be possible, but even so, Christians would be called not to participate in it. I think just wars and just capital punishment are theories that are rarely, if ever, realized, and may be impossible in our modern world. So in practical terms, I may act like a pacifist, although I would not go so far as Seebs and say wars are never justified because God calls Christians not to use violence in self-defense. I do not believe that commandment of Jesus was meant for governments. Of course, my Anabaptist ancestors realized the full implication of this was that a Christian then could never be a magistrate, soldier, judge or police officer.

To the degree that I do participate in a democratic or representative government and am able to petition the government peacefully, I think it is quite appropriate to speak out against unjust wars. If I ever saw a just war, though, my theological and ethical tradition would tell me not to protest it, but also not to participate in it.

Do I live perfectly in accordance with my own principles of nonresistance? No. [bible]philippians 3:12-16[/bible]

....going back though to exodus...
22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [5] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

the words "you are to take" (end of 23) does not sound like "giving" compensation.. I'm sure you have studied the bible longer than me... I've only been reading it for about 3 years and truly studying in depth for about a year.. please feel free to explain if I've missed something...

Thanks and God Bless,
Carina

This part of the Mosaic Law had the purpose of curbing evil and especially violence. It anticipated that there would be violations of the 6th commandment, and that therefore there must be a "Plan B" to deal with the disruption to society these violations would cause, as well as to curb temptation by adding negative consequences to a violation. However, compared to other law codes of the time and general geographic area, such as the Code of Hammurabi, the Mosaic Law was less severe and more direct. Other law codes allowed revenge to exceed the offense. The Mosaic Law limited it to the exact measure of the offense.

I see the need for a "Plan B" of negative consequences in a society where all people do not follow God's law. Christians, one would expect, would not commit murder just because God told them not to. But since no society is Christian, God also ordained governments as a "Plan B."
 
Upvote 0

seebs

God Made Me A Skeptic
Apr 9, 2002
31,917
1,530
20
Saint Paul, MN
Visit site
✟70,235.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Crazy Liz said:
This is where Seebs and I differ a bit. He is a Quaker and a pacifist.

Actually, I'm not quite. I attend a Quaker church, but I'm not a member, and I am not a 100% committed pacifist. I'm too conscious of things like, say, the underlying dependency of our society on the function of law, which is ultimately backed by force.

Apart from that, I agree with just about everything you wrote.

I would say, though, Plan B isn't just for non-Christians; it's also for Christians who are falling short at one time or another.
 
Upvote 0

ZiSunka

It means 'yellow dog'
Jan 16, 2002
17,006
284
✟46,267.00
Faith
Christian
Crazy Liz said:
I see the need for a "Plan B" of negative consequences in a society where all people do not follow God's law. Christians, one would expect, would not commit murder just because God told them not to. But since no society is Christian, God also ordained governments as a "Plan B."
But Plan B doesn't have to be violence. Look at the liberation of India, which didn't require war, and where war was in fact rejected as a solution, not by the dominating country, but by the "rebel factions." They refused to commit violence and still achieved their goal.

Also, in South Africa, there was no war, although there was a lot of non-sanctioned violence, but the victory was achieved through the economic pressures of other nations.

There is always another way.
 
Upvote 0

ZiSunka

It means 'yellow dog'
Jan 16, 2002
17,006
284
✟46,267.00
Faith
Christian
seebs said:
I admit that my faith falls short of explaining what the other way would have been to deal with Hitler's armies and pogroms. But I do admit that there may have been one.
The other way would have been for the German Christians to stand up and against the pograms. Some did, but not enough. All evil needs to prevail is for godly men to do nothing.
 
Upvote 0

Cright

Veteran
Apr 18, 2004
1,855
141
47
SE Michigan, USA
Visit site
✟25,349.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Crazy Liz said:
I see I posted after you did, and I'm sorry. :o
no prob, I didn't even see it until about 5 mins ago in it's empty 'edited' version :)

Crazy Liz said:
This is where Seebs and I differ a bit. He is a Quaker and a pacifist. My background is Mennonite, and I lean more toward nonresistance.

I think God does ordain governments to use the power of the sword as a check on evil, especially violence. Therefore, although I am not in favor of the death penalty for other reasons, I acknowledge that it is within the range of power a government might legitimately exercise. Just as I think theoretically a government could justly impose and execute capital punishment, I think theoretically a just war might be possible, but even so, Christians would be called not to participate in it. I think just wars and just capital punishment are theories that are rarely, if ever, realized, and may be impossible in our modern world. So in practical terms, I may act like a pacifist, although I would not go so far as Seebs and say wars are never justified because God calls Christians not to use violence in self-defense. I do not believe that commandment of Jesus was meant for governments. Of course, my Anabaptist ancestors realized the full implication of this was that a Christian then could never be a magistrate, soldier, judge or police officer.

To the degree that I do participate in a democratic or representative government and am able to petition the government peacefully, I think it is quite appropriate to speak out against unjust wars. If I ever saw a just war, though, my theological and ethical tradition would tell me not to protest it, but also not to participate in it.

Do I live perfectly in accordance with my own principles of nonresistance? No. Philippians 3:12-1612 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.



This part of the Mosaic Law had the purpose of curbing evil and especially violence. It anticipated that there would be violations of the 6th commandment, and that therefore there must be a "Plan B" to deal with the disruption to society these violations would cause, as well as to curb temptation by adding negative consequences to a violation. However, compared to other law codes of the time and general geographic area, such as the Code of Hammurabi, the Mosaic Law was less severe and more direct. Other law codes allowed revenge to exceed the offense. The Mosaic Law limited it to the exact measure of the offense.

I see the need for a "Plan B" of negative consequences in a society where all people do not follow God's law. Christians, one would expect, would not commit murder just because God told them not to. But since no society is Christian, God also ordained governments as a "Plan B."
This makes sence.. I understand now what your saying and where you come from... however... I'm not there though.. as I do research I'll pop back into this thread to get the thoughts of the people in posting in this thread. I know that I get irritated when people use their feelings to decided something that is biblically clear... I don't want to do that.. but right now I don't see the bible as being clear on this issue.. still looking...

anyone have verses they want to share?

God Bless,
Carina
 
Upvote 0

seebs

God Made Me A Skeptic
Apr 9, 2002
31,917
1,530
20
Saint Paul, MN
Visit site
✟70,235.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I forgot to include an obvious argument:

Modern military training is focused heavily on training people to see enemy soldiers purely as "combatants". You must dehumanize the enemy to fight the enemy.

I have seen otherwise very good people who have been very seriously damaged by this training, given a permanent inclination to suspend all moral rules and judgment when dealing with "enemies". For instance, these people might decide that it is perfectly moral to lie to atheists, because atheists are "the enemy" and you must suspend all normal moral judgment when dealing with "the enemy".

This strikes me as pretty much essential to a successful military, and totally incompatible with Christian teachings.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ZiSunka
Upvote 0

Cright

Veteran
Apr 18, 2004
1,855
141
47
SE Michigan, USA
Visit site
✟25,349.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
seebs said:
I forgot to include an obvious argument:

Modern military training is focused heavily on training people to see enemy soldiers purely as "combatants". You must dehumanize the enemy to fight the enemy.

I have seen otherwise very good people who have been very seriously damaged by this training, given a permanent inclination to suspend all moral rules and judgment when dealing with "enemies". For instance, these people might decide that it is perfectly moral to lie to atheists, because atheists are "the enemy" and you must suspend all normal moral judgment when dealing with "the enemy".

This strikes me as pretty much essential to a successful military, and totally incompatible with Christian teachings.
seebs,

I appreciate where you are going with this.. and I agree.. many people are desensitized and taught to dehumanize the enemy...but this is not a rule across the board.

where I do disagree completely is when you talk about moral judgement. The Army and Navy (I don't have much experience w/ the other branches) teaches more about morals and the value of life than many churches I've been in. I have seen manuals, and heard about pre-war training (that even my friends who have not served in a war have had to attend incase they were deployed). My father was in vietnam in the Army, my Grandfather and his 3 brothers were in WWII, my brother-in law was in Iraq until a few months ago, one of my friends from all through school has been Army reserve for 13 years ... I hear first hand from the people who serve and have served.

...but again.. still searching...
 
Upvote 0

seebs

God Made Me A Skeptic
Apr 9, 2002
31,917
1,530
20
Saint Paul, MN
Visit site
✟70,235.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Cright said:
I appreciate where you are going with this.. and I agree.. many people are desensitized and taught to dehumanize the enemy...but this is not a rule across the board.

It is a fundamental goal of Basic Training.

where I do disagree completely is when you talk about moral judgement. The Army and Navy (I don't have much experience w/ the other branches) teaches more about morals and the value of life than many churches I've been in.

They may.

But I don't think you can teach anything true about the value of life while teaching people to kill others on command.

The value of life is not such that some guy wearing a few more stripes than me has the authority to tell me to end it.
 
Upvote 0

d0c markus

The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few
Oct 30, 2003
2,474
77
41
✟3,060.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Cright said:
if you believe that ALL military members are taught to 'kill on command' you are sadly disalusioned. I think you have your idea of military formed from what you know of Marines. Army, Navy and Airforce are not taught that.. :sigh:
In High School I was in an ROTC program for 4 years. I know14,15 people who joined the armed services and had a chance to talk to each one. I also served on a Ft. Leonard Wood Army Base Evangelistic outreach. I can tell you that, at least in basic they are torn down, and taught these things. It's not totally revolving around those ideals but its a major underlying factor. My Pastors brother (he's the son of a pastor as well) was taught the faith from day one. He joined the marines, and is now a Recon Marine. His first deployment is coming up and I am told his major ambition is to kill. No one I knew after they went in came out the same the same person. A couple are now mentally messed up.

I dont speak for all though. Those are my observations from an outsiders stand point. I have never personally served.
 
Upvote 0

ZiSunka

It means 'yellow dog'
Jan 16, 2002
17,006
284
✟46,267.00
Faith
Christian
d0c markus said:
In High School I was in an ROTC program for 4 years. I know14,15 people who joined the armed services and had a chance to talk to each one. I also served on a Ft. Leonard Wood Army Base Evangelistic outreach. I can tell you that, at least in basic they are torn down, and taught these things. It's not totally revolving around those ideals but its a major underlying factor. My Pastors brother (he's the son of a pastor as well) was taught the faith from day one. He joined the marines, and is now a Recon Marine. His first deployment is coming up and I am told his major ambition is to kill. No one I knew after they went in came out the same the same person. A couple are now mentally messed up.

I dont speak for all though. Those are my observations from an outsiders stand point. I have never personally served.
My dad told me many times that when he went into the service, he was a mild-mannered kid from middle-American Ohio, just an ordinary high school graduate. Once there, they taught him how to kill and how to obey orders no matter what. He said by the time he got out of the army, he could have killed anyone without emotion. He was cold and distant inside, something the army called, "well-disciplined and ready for combat."

Even when he got out, he knew he could kill. This mindset was especially dangerous where he lived, because his hometown was a Mafia stronghold. He told me that if he had been approached at that time to do a hit for money, he would have done it. Thank God he was never approached.

The army had taken him when he was a vulnerable boy and turned his heart cold, then left him to deal with that the rest of his life.
 
Upvote 0

Dark Angel

Active Member
Oct 28, 2004
66
3
44
Delaware
✟202.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
For the first two hundred and some odd years of Church History, soldiers and judges who converted to Christianity but refused to leave their posts were excommunicated from the Church. Those who were Christians but joined the military were excommunicated. The Early Church writings all side with pacifism. In fact, it was until the late third and early fourth centuries that the Church relaxed it's rules on military service. In 314 AD, the Church council convened (this was under the rule of Charlegmagne and at the time when the Catholic Church began to form) and decided to excommunicate any Christian soldier who did leave their post! I think that when looking at pacifism, we must be reminded of several things:

1. As Believers in Christ, our eternal destiny is secure. Why should we take the life of one who may not have that? Or what if we are fighting against people who could possibly be believers on the other side of the conflict?

2. As followers of Christ, we belong to a heavenly kingdom. While we may reside temporarily in an earthly kingdom, we are not compelled to actually take part in the activities of that kingdom. Since we are Ambassadors from a foreign country(heaven), why should we meddle in the affairs of another kingdom? This would be tantamount to an American Ambassador to say China becoming a Chinese citizen.

3. The early church was a church of peace. No historian has ever made an argument contrary to that fact.

4. The New Testament repeatedly tells us that we should live at peace with all men, not just those within our national borders.


These are some points that I have come to hold to over the past year or so. I'm the only non-resistant in my family(I don't really like the term pacifist, but it conveys the idea).
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.