Putin's "denazification" of Ukraine

[mindlight]

Putin has said he wants to denazify Ukraine.

What Putin’s talking about when he talks about ‘denazification’ - Jewish Telegraphic Agency

What should Russia do with Ukraine? [Translation of a propaganda article by a Russian journalist]

In Bucha dead prisoners with their hands tied behind their backs were found with evidence of torture. People who have clearly been executed with bullets in the head were also found. Zelensky is adamant that this pattern of atrocities, which he suggests will be repeated elsewhere, should be called a genocide but is that how the word is currently used?

The current definition of genocide is:

Article II of the Convention describes genocide as a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part.

Was the subjugation of Ukraine, as originally envisaged, a program of killing anyone who disagreed with the linguistic, cultural, and spiritual union of Ukraine with Russia?

Is the evidence sufficient to justify this accusation?

The use of the word Nazi obviously invokes deep Russian memories of the German invasion and the heroic Great Patriotic War.

So the language of 'special operation' and 'denazification' makes sense as something which was designed to dissolve the separation of Ukraine from Russia. It is an utter rejection of the direction of Ukraine under Western influence and suggests that the Russians did not believe they could reverse this liberalization of Ukraine except by war.

Does deNazification mean the murder of Ukrainian nationalists and those who want to see Ukraine linguistically, culturally, and spiritually separated from Russia?

Is the idea of an independent Ukraine really so evil that it is worth killing those who promote it? Does the "decadence" of the West and its "victimization" of Russia justify this?

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

"You fool, Comrade! If you kill everyone, then no-one will be Nazi!"

But, no, on a more serious tone: a lot of the stuff for Russia's claims about Nazis in Ukraine is because of the infamous Azov Battalion, a very blatant (if toned down) far-right group that was formed in Ukraine AFTER the fighting in Donbass started that uses some Nazi-esque symbolism (they call it pagan but the Nazis appropriated pagan symbols anyway) as their identifier.
That's how Putin and his cronies can spin their 'denazification' of Ukraine rhetoric. And people not in the know will just lap it up.

 

[mindlight]

"You fool, Comrade! If you kill everyone, then no-one will be Nazi!"

But, no, on a more serious tone: a lot of the stuff for Russia's claims about Nazis in Ukraine is because of the infamous Azov Battalion, a very blatant (if toned down) far-right group that was formed in Ukraine AFTER the fighting in Donbass started that uses some Nazi-esque symbolism (they call it pagan but the Nazis appropriated pagan symbols anyway) as their identifier.
That's how Putin and his cronies can spin their 'denazification' of Ukraine rhetoric. And people not in the know will just lap it up.

Yes but there was no Azov battalion in Kyiv area. Thus they are just a symptom of the deeper problem perceived by Putin over the whole of Ukraine. This is very Old Testament akin to the Josiah reforms

Just as he had done at Bethel, Josiah removed all the shrines at the high places that the kings of Israel had built in the towns of Samaria and that had aroused the Lord’s anger. 20 Josiah slaughtered all the priests of those high places on the altars and burned human bones on them. Then he went back to Jerusalem. 2 Kings 23:19-20

Is brutality, of this sort, what it takes to reverse the ticking time bomb, under an increasingly decadent Western world, or should we instead be looking for the positive corrective of spiritual revival as the corrective to these trends?

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Yes but there was no Azov battalion in Kyiv area. Thus they are just a symptom of the deeper problem perceived by Putin over the whole of Ukraine. This is very Old Testament akin to the Josiah reforms

Just as he had done at Bethel, Josiah removed all the shrines at the high places that the kings of Israel had built in the towns of Samaria and that had aroused the Lord’s anger. 20 Josiah slaughtered all the priests of those high places on the altars and burned human bones on them. Then he went back to Jerusalem. 2 Kings 23:19-20

Is brutality, of this sort, what it takes to reverse the ticking time bomb, under an increasingly decadent Western world, or should we instead be looking for the positive corrective of spiritual revival as the corrective to these trends?

I think you kind of missed the point of what I said. It doesn't matter if there were no Azov units by Kyiv or not. Azov exists, ergo, Putin uses that as carte blanche for his claims to want to denazify Ukraine. That's all it is. Putin just needs that claim to be factual, that Ukraine has a far right/near Nazi group fighting in Ukraine against a Russia (a group that wouldn't have been created as a military unit if Russia hadn't stepped into the Donbass region in the first place in 2014), so he can then claim that Ukraine needs to be denazified.

And, of course, as has been shown by Russian military actions throughout the century, and also the last half-decade too, the Russian war machine does not really care to differentiate between combatants and non-combatants.

 

[mindlight]

I think you kind of missed the point of what I said. It doesn't matter if there were no Azov units by Kyiv or not. Azov exists, ergo, Putin uses that as carte blanche for his claims to want to denazify Ukraine. That's all it is. Putin just needs that claim to be factual, that Ukraine has a far right/near Nazi group fighting in Ukraine against a Russia (a group that wouldn't have been created as a military unit if Russia hadn't stepped into the Donbass region in the first place in 2014), so he can then claim that Ukraine needs to be denazified.

And, of course, as has been shown by Russian military actions throughout the century, and also the last half-decade too, the Russian war machine does not really care to differentiate between combatants and non-combatants.

So you just think he has used this as a pretext and this is just about border expansion.

Denazification was his stated reason for invading and we are now seeing symptoms of that policy in action in places like Bucha. This may well be what he described to be a denazification program that is actively purging Ukrainian nationalists in the places Russia occupies. I am not misunderstanding what you are saying I am suggesting integrity to Putin's actions here and that this is not just a pretext, this is the point of the invasion. Not just to bring Ukraine back into Russia's sphere of influence but to purge it of anti-Russian elements opposed to that dream.

 

[royal priest]

Does deNazification mean the murder of Ukrainian nationalists and those who want to see Ukraine linguistically, culturally, and spiritually separated from Russia?

I think Zelensky is using those murders as a cheap rebuttal to exploit Putin's cheap accusation that Ukraine has been committing genocide. Putin is referring to the globalists in Ukraine as the Nazis. They pose the greatest threat to him of losing hope that Ukraine could someday become reunified with Russia. Moreover, Putin is reacting to the pressure of the "Nazi globalists", in general, that are forcing Russia, as well, to conform to their NWO agenda. I have a feeling China will be responding next, but waiting to see the fall out of Putin's actions.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

So you just think he has used this as a pretext and this is just about border expansion.

Denazification was his stated reason for invading and we are now seeing symptoms of that policy in action in places like Bucha. This may well be what he described to be a denazification program that is actively purging Ukrainian nationalists in the places Russia occupies. I am not misunderstanding what you are saying I am suggesting integrity to Putin's actions here and that this is not just a pretext, this is the point of the invasion. Not just to bring Ukraine back into Russia's sphere of influence but to purge it of anti-Russian elements opposed to that dream.

I am unsure whether the invasion was for expansion or whether Putin just wanted to flex his military muscle after so many years of Russia basically doing nothing massive scale.

I do think that the claim of denazification is just an easy term for Putin to use to try and justify the invasion because to call someone a Nazi is such a charged term, especially since it can easily be used to fall into the logical fallacy of "Oh, you don't think that Ukraine has Nazis? Only a Nazi supporter would say that!".

This line of logic also ignores that Russia has it's own neo-Nazi problem which is significantly worse and blatant than Ukraine's.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Putin has said he wants to denazify Ukraine.

What Putin’s talking about when he talks about ‘denazification’ - Jewish Telegraphic Agency

What should Russia do with Ukraine? [Translation of a propaganda article by a Russian journalist]

In Bucha dead prisoners with their hands tied behind their backs were found with evidence of torture. People who have clearly been executed with bullets in the head were also found. Zelensky is adamant that this pattern of atrocities, which he suggests will be repeated elsewhere, should be called a genocide but is that how the word is currently used?

The current definition of genocide is:

Article II of the Convention describes genocide as a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part.

Was the subjugation of Ukraine, as originally envisaged, a program of killing anyone who disagreed with the linguistic, cultural, and spiritual union of Ukraine with Russia?

Is the evidence sufficient to justify this accusation?

The use of the word Nazi obviously invokes deep Russian memories of the German invasion and the heroic Great Patriotic War.

So the language of 'special operation' and 'denazification' makes sense as something which was designed to dissolve the separation of Ukraine from Russia. It is an utter rejection of the direction of Ukraine under Western influence and suggests that the Russians did not believe they could reverse this liberalization of Ukraine except by war.

Does deNazification mean the murder of Ukrainian nationalists and those who want to see Ukraine linguistically, culturally, and spiritually separated from Russia?

Is the idea of an independent Ukraine really so evil that it is worth killing those who promote it? Does the "decadence" of the West and its "victimization" of Russia justify this?

Nothing justifies Putin's invasion of Ukraine. Putin is no different from the butchers with delusions of grandeur that went before him. Napoleon, Lenin, Hitler, Stalin, Amin, Xi, Kim, just to name a few. Putin wants to restore Russia to her former glory. He will achieve the exact opposite.

When Hitler invaded Russia, a good many Ukrainians saw Germany as liberator. If Hitler was not such an ideologue, He could have had an ally, not an enemy, in Ukraine. No doubt that bugs Putin, but Russia brought this on herself. Ukraine has turned away from Russia and towards Europe. It's hardly a surprise.

 

[A_Thinker]

Just as he had done at Bethel, Josiah removed all the shrines at the high places that the kings of Israel had built in the towns of Samaria and that had aroused the Lord’s anger. 20 Josiah slaughtered all the priests of those high places on the altars and burned human bones on them. Then he went back to Jerusalem. 2 Kings 23:19-20

Is brutality, of this sort, what it takes to reverse the ticking time bomb, under an increasingly decadent Western world, or should we instead be looking for the positive corrective of spiritual revival as the corrective to these trends?

The Bucha Ukrainians were not PRIESTS of any sort. They were just townspeople.

Denazification is just an excuse Putin uses for acting as an old-school Soviet (in nature) again.

It's not just what he's doing in Ukraine ... it's also what he is doing in Russia (shutting down dissenting voices, conscripting young men for his wars of agression, etc.) ...

 

[Goonie]

I do find it ‘funny’ Putins Fascist govt invading to denazify the Ukraine.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Yes but there was no Azov battalion in Kyiv area. Thus they are just a symptom of the deeper problem perceived by Putin over the whole of Ukraine. This is very Old Testament akin to the Josiah reforms

Just as he had done at Bethel, Josiah removed all the shrines at the high places that the kings of Israel had built in the towns of Samaria and that had aroused the Lord’s anger. 20 Josiah slaughtered all the priests of those high places on the altars and burned human bones on them. Then he went back to Jerusalem. 2 Kings 23:19-20

Is brutality, of this sort, what it takes to reverse the ticking time bomb, under an increasingly decadent Western world, or should we instead be looking for the positive corrective of spiritual revival as the corrective to these trends?

When a nation turns to God, very often the leadership gets some wisdom. Europe is learning the folly (again) of being weak when a aggressive nation borders their territory. So yes, spiritual revival is obviously wonderful. But nations need defend themselves effectively as well. If Ukraine had held onto its nukes, we would not be having this conversation.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I do find it ‘funny’ Putins Fascist govt invading to denazify the Ukraine.

Putin is not a Fascist. Communism is not Fascism.

"Fascist", modern interpretation: anyone who disagrees with me.

 

[Goonie]

Putin is not a Fascist. Communism is not Fascism.

"Fascist", modern interpretation: anyone who disagrees with me.

From extreme nationalism, to the oligarchs, to the support of the church and the strongman imagery, Putin's Russia looks towards fascism than communism.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Your comment shows that you do not know what Fascism is. Stalin was no less brutal than Hitler, maybe worse. Mussolini and Franco were Fascists, but nothing like the butcher Stalin and Hitler. It is not helpful to confuse dictatorial ambition with ideology.

Why does it matter? The world tries to divide people into "right" and "left". Leftist terrorism is just as deadly as any white supremacist group. Leftists tend to be better organised also. Neither are correct. But there is a false narrative that leftists are somehow more noble and acceptable.

 

[Goonie]

Your comment shows that you do not know what Fascism is. Stalin was no less brutal than Hitler, maybe worse. Mussolini and Franco were Fascists, but nothing like the butcher Stalin and Hitler. It is not helpful to confuse dictatorial ambition with ideology.

Why does it matter? The world tries to divide people into "right" and "left". Leftist terrorism is just as deadly as any white supremacist group. Leftists tend to be better organised also. Neither are correct. But there is a false narrative that leftists are somehow more noble and acceptable.

Stalin was a monster, along with communism. But the fact remains Putin's Russia in form shares more with fascism than communism.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Stalin was a monster, along with communism. But the fact remains Putin's Russia in form shares more with fascism than communism.

You only say that because you don't know what fascism is.

 

[Goonie]

You only say that because you don't know what fascism is.

And obviously you don’t know what communism is. Russia is not a communist state.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Putin is not a Fascist. Communism is not Fascism.

"Fascist", modern interpretation: anyone who disagrees with me.

Putin is just a totalitarian, it's that sweet spot where there's total control and no ideology.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

So if Russia thinks Ukraine is Nazi, what will they do to the US and Europe when they're done with Ukraine?

 

[mindlight]

I think Zelensky is using those murders as a cheap rebuttal to exploit Putin's cheap accusation that Ukraine has been committing genocide. Putin is referring to the globalists in Ukraine as the Nazis. They pose the greatest threat to him of losing hope that Ukraine could someday become reunified with Russia. Moreover, Putin is reacting to the pressure of the "Nazi globalists", in general, that are forcing Russia, as well, to conform to their NWO agenda. I have a feeling China will be responding next, but waiting to see the fall out of Putin's actions.

Isn't the New World Order all about freedom against tyranny? Or is it about a godless decadence versus a godly war machine, I get confused sometimes? But the real NWO will be worse that this one.

The Chinese seem to be sticking with the Russians even though they have messed up their silk road initiative somewhat. But then apart from the Russians the Chinese only have the North Koreans as friends so they are not spoilt for choice. Besides what China really needs is Russian natural resources.