Purveyor of Confusion

[cvanwey]

Yes, I'm saying that, at least in this case, you are being dishonest, and I believe this quote from you is an example of that dishonesty. The collection of records, testimonies, and letters commonly referred to as "the Bible" is in fact a compilation of evidence; that's what testimony is; evidence. It's difficult for atheists to see that because the Bible has been shrouded in so much religious hype over the years that it is more like a holy relic than a collection of evidentiary documents.

Then you would be incorrect. Here's why...

First, I have genuine doubt that a man rose from the dead. You claim I'm lying. Okay, I guess you really got me there, please!

Further, to add to the rest of your reply....The Qur'an is also a collection of evidence, in the sense that I'm sure there exists (some) stuff which can likely be corroborated. But it's another to assume that, because we can verify some physical evidence from the Qur'an, as claimed from the Qur'an, that we can then [also] assume that a man named Muhammad flew up to heaven on a white horse.

So again, what 'testimony' affirms <100's> seeing a postmortem Jesus? And before you answer, I trust we are in agreement that there exists a fairly large difference between 100's of individuals independently claiming the same witnessed event, verses, one claiming many others saw something - without any sort of documented corroboration, right?

Like with all evidence, it must be examined and interpreted in a way which is consistent and practical. Your suggestion that, if we were to examine the Bible as through it really were evidence, then we'd have to believe anything recorded on paper, is an appeal to the ridiculous which dismisses the legitimacy of genuine consideration. That is one way in which you're being dishonest.

Nope. The Bible is the claim, where a resurrection is concerned. Just like the Qur'an is the claim, for a man flying up to heaven on a white horse. Without the Bible, there exists no claim of a man rising from the dead, via eye-witness attestation. But until you explain to me how we have 100's of verified independent eye-witness accounts, of a man rising from the dead, as you assert; we appear to have a problem.

The other way in which you're being dishonest is in using the apparent mistakes of professing followers of a religion to condemn the religion itself. It is guilt by association. It is like those people who point to all the priests in Catholicism who abused children and then conclude that Christianity is bad, as though Jesus taught that it is okay to abuse children. It's a dishonest correlation. Yes, by all means call out the bad behavior of those professing a particular religion, but do so fairly. Blame the individual for his wrong choices and not the group or religion.

You use this example a lot. But let me tell you why this fails.

My objective here is to point out that it appears we have conflicting assertions for salvation. You say it's this, others disagree. My point, is that there really exists no way for either you nor them to verify who is correct/incorrect. Why, because as I'm currently telling another, in one passage, God states the saved/unsaved will be separated by their works (Matthew 25:31-45). In another, God is clear that the rich need to give up all possession to be a follower (Luke 14:25-33). In other passages, God tells you to believe and have faith (John 3:16-18). Or maybe you need to keep the commandments, which is also works based.

Thus far, I would at least agree that without faith, the rest doesn't matter. I sincerely doubt an atheist can 'earn' their way to heaven. Or can they???? However, in many cases, belief/faith/repent alone does not appear to be enough. So is it, or not???????

Remember, the title of this thread is 'purveyor of confusion.' I'm not accusing you of being wrong. I'm not accusing you of anything really. My accusation is to the author(s). Which, in my estimation, is the claims of a dead preacher, at best. And at worst, were augmented, added to, etc from many later authors... (In which I could make a case for that, in another thread...)

Is it belief alone? Are any works required? etc...?

And the third way in which you're being dishonest is by claiming there are contradictions in Jesus' teachings, and then dismissing explanations which clear up the apparent confusion. You did this with Jesus' teaching about forsaking all, suggesting that Jesus asked something of his followers which is impossible to follow or contrary to others teachings. When I offered a solution, that the answer is to share all things in common, you dismissed that explanation even though it directly addresses your presumed confusion.

Oh goodie! I'm dishonest in a third way....

Please see above. I care not to repeat myself.

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

perfect unison and harmony (that's my take). No conflicting messages.
In my opinion, God provided his words clearly.
There are differences in opinion, though. If people make it clear when they interpret by saying "in my opinion", "as I interpret it...", "it seems to me", then there is no problem between Christians having different takes on stances.
Sometimes (professing) Christians get aggressive while debating. It's a shame indeed.
But thanks to God, there is always truth that can be found in the Bible, in my opinion.

Thomas

Would it be better if people stopped giving their opinion at all? It seems the issue is exactly thar somehow people believer they should be able to offer up an opinion about what they believe is Gods word. What’s wrong with saying “I don’t know”?

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

No.

I think there are some passages that on the surface may appear to give a conflicting message. That's why a Biblical education is important if a person is going to engage in theology. But the Bible is in harmony.

No.

No passages should be ignored, though all passages need to be interpreted.

I suppose there are different methods. For me, I assume that the default position is to take Scripture as literal. Then, in looking at the context, we can usually tell whether or not it should not be taken literally. Also, Christians like to say that Scripture interprets Scripture, so we'll rely on other passages that might be more clear to provide insight as to whether or not a question passage should be literal or figurative.

A biblical education from who?

 

[cvanwey]

Would it be better if people stopped giving their opinion at all? It seems the issue is exactly thar somehow people believer they should be able to offer up an opinion about what they believe is Gods word. What’s wrong with saying “I don’t know”?

That would be a good start, I reckon...

But a descent follow question(s) might be...

Do you not know because you haven't explored? Which might beg the question, is Christianity really that important to you?

Or,

Do you not know because you too are confused of the path for salvation, even after sufficient study? And if so, why are you confused? It's either you admit you are not capable of understanding, or, like I'm attempting to portray here in this thread, the messages conflict.

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

I believe one of the unique aspects of Christianity in comparison to all other religions is that works do not result in Salvation.

Now, what's interesting about that is that for people who think that works are required for Salvation, I'm fine with that. Because whether John believes works are required, or John doesn't believe works are required, the way John actually lives, shouldn't change if he's a follower of Christ.

I think when you look across at the three branches of Christianity, you find the core to be unified. The core being that Christ is God, Christ was born of virgin. Christ lived a sinless life. Christ died on the cross. Christ rose from the dead. Christ ascended into heaven. Christ will at some point in the future, in some way, return to earth. There is unity in that among all three branches of Christianity. And that's what matters.

John may believe that he has to have works accompany his relationship with Christ to get to Heaven, while Jason believes that his works are simply a result of his relationship with Christ - they're both doing good works, and they both have a relationship with Christ.

I think my above answer addresses this. But as you probably want more, I would say they "muddied the water" in the sense that they added something that isn't necessary.

Sure, as long as you stick to the NT. I would rather not go off on rabbit trails explaining why you don't understand the OT. So, stick to the NT on this line of reasoning and I'll play your game.

I don't know whether it was literal or figurative. I haven't put that much effort into studying it. Sorry~

Who said that’s all that matters? Where did anyone get this idea that there are some things that are important and somethings not so much?

 

[cvanwey]

A biblical education from who?

I already asked him that I have yet to get a clear answer. My point there was to demonstrate the Catholics are going to teach something likely quite different than a Protestant, in regards to salvation.

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

That would be a good start, I reckon...

But a descent follow question(s) might be...

Do you not know because you haven't explored? Which might beg the question, is Christianity really that important to you?

Or,

Do you not know because you too are confused of the path for salvation, even after sufficient study? And if so, why are you confused? It's either you admit you are not capable of understanding, or, like I'm attempting to portray here in this thread, the messages conflict.

I know I am confused and I have no problem admitting that. Maybe I wouldn’t “think” I’m confused if I chose to add my own interpretation or my own opinion to what scripture says but I’m not willing to go that route because if I can do it, anybody can do it and then we know what happens from there.

 

[cvanwey]

Who said that’s all that matters? Where did anyone get this idea that there are some things that are important and somethings not so much?

Thank you!

 

[cvanwey]

I know I am confused and I have no problem admitting that.

Welp, that makes two of us.

Maybe I wouldn’t “think” I’m confused if I chose to add my own interpretation or my own opinion to what scripture says but I’m not willing to go that route because if I can do it, anybody can do it and then we know what happens from there.

Yes, you get Christians on here, whom claim they know the path to salvation, and seem to side-step the presented conflict(s) - until proven otherwise. Where as I openly admit, that if I were a Christian, I would not be able to figure out how to actually be saved - (even if I read the Bible 500 times).

But to follow up, do you ever wonder if your chosen path is enough for Him? And if you do, does He answer you? And if not, do you ever wonder why God remains so mysterious, especially when we are speaking about something as important as your eternity? Seems like fair enough follow-up questions, doesn't it?

 

[cvanwey]

So, salvation is not only about what directions to follow, and things to believe, but how we have been brought "from the power of Satan to God" > in Acts 26:18.

Going to consolidate again, for sake in brevity

Thus far, a couple have stated belief/faith is enough for salvation (i.e.) Romans 10:10, Ephesians 2:8-9, etc...

You state otherwise. You claim additional attributes are necessary.

The more people which respond, the more my point gets re-affirmed.

It would appear the authors of the Bible are the direct contributors to confusion.

I'm confident all of whom post here are intelligent, competent, educated, have common sense in all other facets of their daily lives, etc...

And yet, the more people whom respond in this thread, will likely further demonstrate that the purveyors of such confusion originate from conflict, via, opposing dictates/messages.

 

[com7fy8]

Thus far, a couple have stated belief/faith is enough for salvation (i.e.) Romans 10:10, Ephesians 2:8-9, etc...

You state otherwise. You claim additional attributes are necessary.

But it is faith with grace working through it. And our Apostle Paul says we need "faith working through love" (in Galatians 5:6) There is not contradiction, but things complement each other.

Faith is not only belief of ideas, then, but faith is what actually works in a person. Paul says we are saved by grace, through faith. And God's grace is not only an attribute or a work, but grace is God Himself working in a person to save the person.

So, I don't agree that I meant that additional "attributes" are needed. I am talking about God Himself being needed, by means of His grace through faith.

"by grace you have been saved through faith" > in Ephesians 2:8.

 

[cvanwey]

When you argue to the contrary, that we don't need to forsake our material possessions to share communally with other Christians and when you argue that we really can keep working for god and money, all you're really doing is promoting a luke-warm testimony to the world, the very thing that cvanwey is attempting to twist to suit his own bitterness against God. You're giving him the ammunition he believes will discredit Jesus' ministry, you, a professing follower denying obedience to the teachings of Jesus with these watery doctrines about how it's all just an ethereal, mysterious attitude where you believe the best about yourself.

You have, yet again, demonstrated your mistake

My point is simple. @SPF stated works are not necessary. But it would appear that Jesus states they are (in places). That's all.

Again, I'm a casual observer here now. Much like you attending a comparative religions course, and hearing others speaking about some opposing religious claims.

Yes, I'm still interested, however. Why? Because I used to believe what I was taught. But after my own investigation, and reading the Bible for myself, I have found the claims to a resurrection are severely lacking. Hence, the claims to Christian assertions are really no different, verses questioning a Hindu about a statement they make, which I find conflict with...

And hence, as I stated prior, I still question others beliefs, their consistency in their beliefs, or the lack-there-of.... Much like you might do, if you attended a comparative religions course, and listened to a Hindu making a claim, for which you found conflict.

Got it?

And to drive home one of the most basic of points... I harbor about as much bitterness towards god, as you do for the tooth fairy

 

[cvanwey]

But it is faith with grace working through it. And our Apostle Paul says we need "faith working through love" (in Galatians 5:6) There is not contradiction, but things complement each other.

Faith is not only belief of ideas, then, but faith is what actually works in a person. Paul says we are saved by grace, through faith. And God's grace is not only an attribute or a work, but grace is God Himself working in a person to save the person.

So, I don't agree that I meant that additional "attributes" are needed. I am talking about God Himself being needed, by means of His grace through faith.

"by grace you have been saved through faith" > in Ephesians 2:8.

So works are, or are not, necessary?

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

Welp, that makes two of us.



Yes, you get Christians on here, whom claim they know the path to salvation, and seem to side-step the presented conflict(s) - until proven otherwise. Where as I openly admit, that if I were a Christian, I would not be able to figure out how to actually be saved - (even if I read the Bible 500 times).

But to follow up, do you ever wonder if your chosen path is enough for Him? And if you do, does He answer you? And if not, do you ever wonder why God remains so mysterious, especially when we are speaking about something as important as your eternity? Seems like fair enough follow-up questions, doesn't it?

Very fair questions and they are questions I ask myself all the time. I do feel like I have received peace about some things but at the same time there is still the thought of what if I’m wrong. If I am being genuine about my search I absolutely must be sincere enough to ask myself what happens if I am wrong, right? When I ask myself this question it is 100% apparent to me that I must show no judgment to anybody who has come to differing conclusions than I have, whether that is a Muslim, atheist, Buddhist etc... someone brought up the idea of evidence and how you are being dishonest but the truth is that most people feel they have evidence to support their opinion or belief. Some people have a different level of skepticism than other people about evidence that is presented and I completely understand it. Someone on these forums said something about we should trust in church fathers and I simply asked what if they are wrong? These are questions that must be explored if my eternal destination depends on it. I have been around human beings, myself included to know that honesty isn’t always the very first choice in all situations. So I get stuck wondering where do I go from here? And ultimately I just try and do the best I can, try and be loving and non judgmental because my hope is that people are doing their best. An atheists may not believe because they aren’t willing to just trust human beings, a kid has grown up in a family that is Muslim and so are convinced their
way is right for them, a Buddhist may feel they have found the right way. I know what my belief is but I am also aware that this is my belief. I cannot sit here and act as though I have it all figured out because I know I do not. Hence the reason I have to ask my self the questions that you presented because I don’t feel I am being sincere if I do not. This may not make any sense and it may seem completely illogical but remember no judgement. Thought provoking conversation that is loving I’m all for. Thanks

 

[cvanwey]

but the truth is that most people feel they have evidence to support their opinion or belief. Some people have a different level of skepticism than other people about evidence that is presented and I completely understand it.

I wanted to highlight this observation. As it seems to directly relate to the thread, entire....

And in my case, I have a genuine discernment, in that I see conflict. Thus, hypothetically, if God does exist, and I believe He exists, and I'm mistaken about my conclusion(s) for salvation, is He going to hold me accountable for being incorrect on judgment day? Or, does God merely judge you, based upon your earnestness and best efforts to follow Him? But if He does, then this would mean some of His assertions are less important than others...? Again, confusion.... I guess I'm glad I do not need to directly grapple with such issues any longer...

 

[com7fy8]

So works are, or are not, necessary?

First > God saves us, through Jesus. Now, then, does God include His works, in the process?

yes

And these include things He has a person do, in order to be saved. For example, He could have a person read a scripture, talk with the right person, listen to the preaching God has for that person. Doing those things is doing works, but they are exact things which God has each person do; and He uses them to minister the grace which brings a person to trust in Jesus.

My opinion is that whatever God uses to minister His grace is essential, with each person what He does individually but also with the people helping the person . . . what He has them doing.

Often, someone may say a prayer of trusting in Jesus. So, whatever God has a person do is essential; this is what I mean.

But the actual being saved by grace through faith . . . to me . . . is talking about

God acting to save a person
by means of
having that person together with Jesus >

grace
through
faith.

And He uses the people He uses. Whatever and whomever He uses . . . in the process of saving us by His grace through faith in Jesus . . . what and whom He includes are essential. And this is unique with each of us.

If He used someone's example to help to win you to Jesus, that was essential to your salvation, is what I mean. But what He actually does in us is what rescues us from living in sin, to sharing with God and discovering how to love. And He is almighty; so this is why we are safe. Saved means safe. He changes us, He keeps us.

But He uses people and events. I have talked with a lady who said even Satan helped her, because he is so awful that she could see how desirable Jesus is. So, that helped her to get saved . . . if I remember her right. That was a while ago. Well . . . that could have been what helped a woman to get away from a boyfriend. Even so > there can be things and people who help to make Jesus look good, because of how lowsy they are God doesn't really need that kind of help, but He can use anything.

But even bad things God can use to help minister us to salvation. And, yes, the Holy Spirit convicts us of how our sin is wrong, and our ways are so inferior; this is included.

So, I would say whatever and whomever God includes is essential and helps to save us, in some way. But . . . technically . . . God Himself is the One who does what really works, in us, by means of getting us with His own Son Jesus.

And only God can make sure we get with the real Jesus, by the way, and not some counterfeit . . . like we have been able to do so easily with humans . . . getting with the wrong ones, fooling our own selves. Only God is good and wise and knowing enough to make sure we really have gotten with His Son by means of His real Holy Spirit.

So, this is not only about getting the right beliefs. What matters more is are we with the real Jesus? Now that I think of it . . . isn't it interesting how so many people squabble about what beliefs to have, but how many say a word about making sure we are with the real Jesus and how we become inside ourselves because of Him in us? How is Jesus having us now become so we are conformed to His image? For some reason, it seems a lot of arguing is elsewhere . . . perhaps designed to keep our attention elsewhere.

 

[cvanwey]

things He has a person do, in order to be saved. For example, He could have a person read a scripture, talk with the right person, listen to the preaching God has for that person. Doing those things is doing works, but they are exact things which God has each person do; and He uses them to minister the grace which brings a person to trust in Jesus.

And He uses the people He uses. Whatever and whomever He uses . . . in the process of saving us by His grace through faith in Jesus . . . what and whom He includes are essential. And this is unique with each of us.

If He used someone's example to help to win you to Jesus, that was essential to your salvation, is what I mean. But what He actually does in us is what rescues us from living in sin, to sharing with God and discovering how to love. And He is almighty; so this is why we are safe. Saved means safe. He changes us, He keeps us.

But He uses people and events.

So, I would say whatever and whomever God includes is essential and helps to save us, in some way. But . . . technically . . . God Himself is the One who does what really works, in us, by means of getting us with His own Son Jesus.

And only God can make sure we get with the real Jesus, by the way, and not some counterfeit . . .

Sounds as if you are saying God opts to, not only present Himself to certain people, but then gets them to do things?

I prayed to this perceived God for 30+ years, and nothing. I guess I was not worthy? I also ask/asked people here to demonstrate God. No such luck. And since God knows what evidence would be necessary to convince me of His existence, and chooses not to furnish as such; at best, God chooses not to interact with me regardless.

However, it sounds like you are saying God interacts with some, maybe even against their will? And others, like me, He chooses not to. Thus, I have to ask, seems we have yet another conflict, via
Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23.

So, this is not only about getting the right beliefs. What matters more is are we with the real Jesus? Now that I think of it . . . isn't it interesting how so many people squabble about what beliefs to have, but how many say a word about making sure we are with the real Jesus and how we become inside ourselves because of Him in us? How is Jesus having us now become so we are conformed to His image? For some reason, it seems a lot of arguing is elsewhere . . . perhaps designed to keep our attention elsewhere.

Seems odd that God makes great efforts to make sure some get it right, but leaves others alone completely; even when asked of Him for decades? What a mysterious God... And more curious still, is the ones claiming they know, conflict directly with each other. Again, very curious....?

But getting back to the tenets for salvation, seems you have not really answered the question. And at best, kind of confirmed my statements in post #1.... (i.e.) There does not exist one standard for salvation.

 

[com7fy8]

I prayed to this perceived God for 30+ years, and nothing. I guess I was not worthy? I also ask/asked people here to demonstrate God. No such luck. And since God knows what evidence would be necessary to convince me of His existence, and chooses not to furnish as such; at best, God chooses not to interact with me regardless.

If I am with the real God, it is not at all because I have been worthy. Our Apostle Paul says all of us have been >

"by nature children of wrath, just as the others" (in Ephesians 2:3).

In my case, I did not try to set the terms for how God had to reveal Himself to me. But I was very conceited and critical against people. That was how I managed to fool myself, very well.

And I had plenty of evidence and proof of how I was getting worse and worse, not getting myself anywhere. I couldn't prove God, but I was proof of how I was my own main problem. And that got to me, so then I was ready to admit that my only hope was if God is in control. And with that I read Romans 9, which was a stunner.

But humans can worship having their own control. But God is not conceited about having control. Jesus could have stayed in Heaven; but because Jesus is not at all conceited . . . even though He is so superior, Jesus had compassion for us and came here to reach us and save us and share His own good with us.

But people make themselves the judges of Jesus. But Jesus knows how people are; and He has compassion for anyone >

"'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.'" (Matthew 11:28-30)

So, Jesus feels for us. But we can fail to feel for our own selves; we can drive ourselves and waste ourselves. We can keep on in weakness for pleasures and excitement, and the weakness for this makes us keep on being weak so we can also suffer in anger and frustration and hurts and unforgiveness and arguing and other abuse > anti-love stuff.

This is not the way to trust God to reveal Himself.

Anyway, my personal experience is that God is quiet; so it works for me to be quiet and trust Him to do what He wants with me. And it doesn't matter how long I wait. It seems, though, I don't have to wait long, but . . . for that matter . . . right now, I am making some major cuts in my life, in order to be with Him in His peace and creativity. In quietness with Him, He can require things of me, like now to trust Him to take care of my lady friend who is in another town and has trusted a certain pastor to be her pastor. So, I have to dump how pride would have me demanding that she trust me and let me help her. I would say I have acted in pride and maybe competed with ones she has chosen to trust.

So, I mean . . . in order to be with God, we will have things required of us . . . so we are truly submissive with Him in His peace. And, even now, no matter what I might say, God is the One who really knows if I am with Him or not. There is room for question, indeed, since I have tried to control people and make myself a big shot. Pride and conceit can keep us from real loving, indeed.

 

[John Helpher]

My point is simple. @SPF stated works are not necessary. But it would appear that Jesus states they are (in places). That's all.

Faith and works go hand in hand; one is the reflection of the other. If you were to read Jesus' teachings (and those teachings of his followers) sincerely you would not be confused about this. Instead, what you're doing is taking the confusion of others and then twisting that into some kind of argument against Christianity.

Those people here who argue that we're not saved by works almost always do so as a means of escaping accountability for not making the kind of changes in their lives necessary to conform with the values of the kingdom of Heaven (one example is Jesus' teaching that we cannot work for God and money at the same time without cheating on one or the other). While it is true that we are not saved by works (in the context that there's nothing we can do to earn salvation) it is our works which demonstrate that we want to be a citizen in God's Kingdom. Showing love to our neighbors requires us to work; if we excused our responsibility to love our neighbor on the basis that it equates to works salvation, then we'd essentially be demonstrating to God that we're not interested in showing love to our neighbor. In the case of a Kingdom built on showing love to others, why would he want to save those who view acting on the the values of that Kingdom as a bad thing?

This is the explanation that you claim you're searching for, though I strongly suspect you will not be satisfied with this explanation because you're not really interested in sorting through the confusion; you're playing games with other people's confusion. The feeling I get from your posts is that you get some sense of superiority tripping people up as to whether we're saved by grace or works.

Manipulating other people's confusion doesn't make you smarter or better at debate; it demonstrates an insecurity in your spirit which, again, I'm guessing has resulted from some unsatisfying experience in the church world.

 

[cvanwey]

Faith and works go hand in hand; one is the reflection of the other. If you were to read Jesus' teachings (and those teachings of his followers) sincerely you would not be confused about this. Instead, what you're doing is taking the confusion of others and then twisting that into some kind of argument against Christianity.

Those people here who argue that we're not saved by works almost always do so as a means of escaping accountability for not making the kind of changes in their lives necessary to conform with the values of the kingdom of Heaven (one example is Jesus' teaching that we cannot work for God and money at the same time without cheating on one or the other). While it is true that we are not saved by works (in the context that there's nothing we can do to earn salvation) it is our works which demonstrate that we want to be a citizen in God's Kingdom. Showing love to our neighbors requires us to work; if we excused our responsibility to love our neighbor on the basis that it equates to works salvation, then we'd essentially be demonstrating to God that we're not interested in showing love to our neighbor. In the case of a Kingdom built on showing love to others, why would he want to save those who view acting on the the values of that Kingdom as a bad thing?

This is the explanation that you claim you're searching for, though I strongly suspect you will not be satisfied with this explanation because you're not really interested in sorting through the confusion; you're playing games with other people's confusion. The feeling I get from your posts is that you get some sense of superiority tripping people up as to whether we're saved by grace or works.

Manipulating other people's confusion doesn't make you smarter or better at debate; it demonstrates an insecurity in your spirit which, again, I'm guessing has resulted from some unsatisfying experience in the church world.

Thank you for your answer. And believe it or not, I agree with you, to a certain extent. But yet, I'm afraid we still have problem(s)?

And please, stop taking pot-shots. Really not necessary. If you think I'm truly a troll, then you might want to leave this forum. Such doubters, skeptics, atheists are here to challenge your position.

One of MY points is that, like I told another, a few posts back, I could read the Bible many times, and still be confused regarding salvation.

Here's why...

Please read how I responded to @Loversofjesus_2018 (in post #49):

"do you ever wonder if your chosen path is enough for Him? And if you do, does He answer you? And if not, do you ever wonder why God remains so mysterious, especially when we are speaking about something as important as your eternity? Seems like fair enough follow-up questions, doesn't it?"

Furthermore, no human is perfect. Hence, you are not always going to give everything, all the time, as much as you possibly can... Hence, you will always fall short, in comparison to all His said instructions... Namely, the Commandments, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 14:25-33, John 3:16-18, etc etc etc etc etc etc....

So again, which commands are not as important, and which ones must you remain steadfast, all-the-way????? See below...

Example:

How do you know faith/belief is absolutely required? Sure, it says so here and there, as mentioned above, that you must believe. However, why is Luke 14:25-33 not necessarily hard and fast?

Case/point, you might state you need 100% faith that Jesus is Lord. So why then is it not the case that, if you do not follow Luke 14:25-33 100%, maybe it's still okay?

Alternatively, maybe if I, deep down, have a sneaking suspicion that maybe Jesus [could] be the Messiah, but remain doubtful and/or on the fence, but work for the Peace Corps, maybe that's enough?

You see, it's really hard to say, even under your assertions. Why? Because I'm sure you do not give everything away, that you do not need immediately for basic survival in that moment. Hence, does that mean the items you decide to keep are direct adversaries to Jesus? Sounds kind of absurd to me????