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That was a great example...Okay Kylie.
Feel free to argue with thin air. I am not “changing my mind” about anything because I’ve made it clear from the beginning what I think.
“When my case went to court, the Judge threw the book at me.”
Context is important, ma’am. The judge does not literally throw the book at me. It’s exactly the sort of thing I’d expect from humans who isolate texts and make erroneous judgments. You believe the Bible cannot be trusted because of others just like you.
God says “You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live.” (Exodus 33:20) The definition of faith is "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)
I'm not sure what you mean by "reveal His presence". Are you expecting an angel, a supernatural miracle, words in the sky? I personally have never been contacted this way.
We meet God in the quiet spaces of our lives, not through "catalysts".
You do not have to have something dramatic or tragic happen to you to have a change of heart. I previously told you how I have personally encountered God in my life-- in moments of love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (John 4:24, Galatians 5:22-23). I am sure you have had your fair share of these experiences. When you start to see God in those places then you will be able to say God is everywhere. This is how God reveals Himself for now.
Exodus 33:23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.
1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"
God is preparing creation to be ready to stand in the full presence of God, but we are not yet ready. I will pray for you but I hope that you will allow yourself to open your heart up to God again. I hope that your time here on CF is not for nothing.
I have never disagreed with you on that point, so not sure why you keep bringing it up. You are not the only one who struggles with the mysteries of God! Who are you to demand things from Him? "And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. (Romans 8:23)" Sure, three decades is a long time but the Israelites wandered the desert for FORTY and before that they were enslaved for 430. Maybe God's plan is to make you the most patient person in the world!
I do not know what Mormons believe, but I believe we receive a variety of rewards in the next life. The Bible depicts different "Heavenly Crowns" each believer can adorn (James 1:12, 1 Corinthians 9:25, 2 Timothy 4:8, 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Thessalonians 2:19).
A God that will save all? That God sounds more 'loving' than the one you may have been taught! I have faith that EVERYTHING God does is out of love-- even when he withholds information! There are a lot of questionable things God has done... yet He says "I know the plans I have for you! Plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future! (Jeremiah 29:11)" Why ask me what I would do? God knows INFINITELY more than me.
What can we really do for you if you have already decided to stand firm in your disbelief? You say you want a catalyst yet you've shut up all contact with God. It looks like for the past 36 pages people have tried to offer you evidence... now it is YOUR JOB to follow the evidence. All I've been hearing from you is "Nope, too confusing, doesn't make sense, not worth my time, I give up, I don't have a choice." Maybe you think you cannot choose what you believe but you CAN make CHOICES that AFFECT your beliefs.
I really hope you know, just because you have stopped trying does not mean God did too. Prayers to you.
And as I said, and repeat, the FOUNDATION is sufficient...and anyone who has their feet on THE FOUNDATION it is sufficient to them...
And as I said, and repeat, the FOUNDATION is sufficient...and anyone who has their feet on THE FOUNDATION it is sufficient to them...
Deuteronomy 18 is sufficient....and THE NT fulfills this...
Remember, the people said we do not want to hear the VOICE of GOD,lest we die...and asked Moses to speak for HIM and they would listen to Moses...
GOD said,in Deuteronomy 18, they have spoken well what they have spoken and declares:
I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.
Okay Kylie.
Feel free to argue with thin air. I am not “changing my mind” about anything because I’ve made it clear from the beginning what I think.
“When my case went to court, the Judge threw the book at me.”
Context is important, ma’am. The judge does not literally throw the book at me. It’s exactly the sort of thing I’d expect from humans who isolate texts and make erroneous judgments. You believe the Bible cannot be trusted because of others just like you.
Sir you cannot compare your faith in God to your faith in Australia or your great great grandmother. Several hundred years ago a man saw an apple fall and decided to call it gravity. Then the world said "Okay sure", accepted it as reality, and came up with formulas and equations to better understand it. Truth is we know NOTHING ABOUT GRAVITY STILL, only how to think about it.There exists evidence of things I haven't 'seen', and I still believe... Many claimed countries, air, other galaxies, black holes, the existence of claimed people I've never met, my great great great grand parents, insect species, atoms, gravity, etc... The question becomes, why do I believe these unseen things exist, and not God?
God is not a stone-hearted king sitting far far away on his giant throne in outer space. Was God impotent when he chose to manifest Himself as a low-class carpenter from Nazareth? The Jews thought so! They were expecting a MESSIAH. Was God impotent when he allowed this low-class carpenter to be spat on, kicked, pierced, and CRUCIFIED? They sure thought so! (Matthew 27:42)Sounds like a rather impotent God then really?
Because that is where I found him, brother! I remember feeling crushed after church every week because everyone else was hands raised, on their knees, eyes closed looking like they had been POSSESSED by the Holy Spirit. I said "Why not me too, God?" I surrendered my expectations of what God was suppose to feel and look like and I started seeing Him clearly in my mother's love, in the innocence of children, in music, sunsets, laughter, friendships, kindness from strangers. I don't know your life but I really hope you don't have to squint, tilt your head, or really concentrate, to think of similar experiences.You know this because????????
Not sure where you conjured up this argument. What was it that I said gave you the impression God has something against still-borns, infants, children, mentally handicapped, etc etc??? Quite the opposite.This makes no sense. What about still-borns, infants, small children, the ones whom never hear of Jesus, the mentally handicapped, humans with Down's syndrome, earnest and heart-felt death bed confessions/conversions, etc. They cannot, or did not, 'prepare' before their deaths.
And furthermore, what exactly are they 'preparing' for? Once you cross the threshold, from earth to heaven, you are no longer you anyways... All humans will perpetually sin, until natural death. In heaven, you apparently have no more desire for sin; you are perpetually happy and filled with bliss. Otherwise, why call it 'heaven'?
A. Then God will not hold it against me for being a skeptic.
B. I do not need to prepare for God's contact; for as the Bible also states "and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
C. And again, why prepare? See above...
I do not know what Heaven will be like, cvanwey. Why don't you stop creating disappointment for yourself by dropping the expectations.And second of all, heaven then also looks to resemble the military; earned ranks, metals of valor... Except, in heaven, you wear them forever?
Yes cvanwey, live your life... to the fullest! That is really what God wants (John 10:10).And in regards to your response, if grace is bestowed upon all, I guess you will ultimately see every human in heaven anyways. If not sooner, than later... Maybe just with less 'badges' of honor? And since eternity is a long time, in the grand scheme of things, I guess it really makes no difference. Hence, why should anyone care what the Bible says? Just live your life. If THIS version of God truly exists, He's going to take you, 'purify' you where applicable, and then you will end up in the same realm as all the ones whom spent their entire life's on earth following a specific creed or code.
But I again ask you, for which you already acknowledged and concurred; but I have to bring it up again, as it is relevant here.... Millions and millions of Christians believe hell is eternal. God does not even want to correct them. And yet, many state they speak to God directly. You would think, in some of those conversations, God might reveal to them, that all are saved (eventually). And that hell is not eternal for the humans whom inhabit this specific realm.
Yes, God truly does work in mysterious ways!
But as you stated, 'God works in mysterious ways.'
And furthermore, what 'loving God' would put such humans through such a process, if they are going to ultimately end up where He wants them anyways?
And further still, what sort of 'loving God', would set back, and watch it all happen, knowing with infallible certainty, exactly the way it was going to go down? In the end, they all end up in heaven anyways. What does the human gain, after being in heaven? Do humans sit around, and compare stories of what God put them through before they got there?
Please look at my responses in a differing light
- What can you do for me? In this thread, demonstrate/affirm the conflict within the Bible. You have already fulfilled this request. And I thank you for this....
- By catalyst, I'm stating I searched for God for decades. Not once do I feel I received anything for which I could not just as well chalk up to standard naturalist daily phenomenon.
- What 'evidence' specifically have I been given, and should follow, for God?
- The title of the thread demonstrates how we have absolutely no unity among the believers AND non-believers. When you read the pages of the Bible, we have a multitude of 'confirmed' renditions. You are a testament to this; and a contributor.
And no, belief is not a choiceOtherwise, simply WILL yourself to believe the opposite of something you currently truly belief, without reason.
Sounds like you do not have much desire to address itYou skipped right over it, and I provided the post number for you. It's #620. If you care not to find it, I'm not going to do your work for you.
If prayers are only answered, according to His will, then petitionary/intercessory prayer just might be meaningless? Which again, may suggest contradiction to the many verses I listed prior.
Furthermore, you missed another point. Apparently, God could not respond to the request at all, or, He could tell you no... However, if He never furnishes reason(s) why, then is this really a 'caring', 'loving', and human interacting God to begin with - (Psalm 145:9-13; Psalm 145:17)?
What prayers should a human expect for Him to answer, if He is going to deny genuine request(s) for clarification in verse?
If the answer is yes, the answer is yes. It builds upon my point(s)And furthermore, we have many other claims form the Bible, along with countless anecdotal claims regarding answers from God.
See above
Or in my case, never. Even when others request upon my behalf.
No. You switched to another argument. But it's okay
It is not a true scotsman fallacy, as I showed you again and again
We just went backwards like 200 posts again.You are arguing the 'no true Scotsman fallacy' again.
"In this form of faulty reasoning one's belief is rendered unfalsifiable because no matter how compelling the evidence is, one simply shifts the goalposts so that it wouldn't apply to a supposedly 'true' example. This kind of post-rationalization is a way of avoiding valid criticisms of one's argument."
If a YEC believes in a literal translation, later majors in science, later sees conflict, curses God for deceiving him/her, later denouces Christianity, later reads another book explaining how evolution and the Bible can ajoin, believes in God again, and asks for forgiveness, of course this human was a Christian prior. Why?.....
The YEC was a literalist. They likely spent much time shutting their ears to opposing claims, for which they think are 'from the devil.' However, when enough evidence was presented to cause him/her to no longer believe it is literal, and hence, rebuke their believed upon God, and later, denounce the concept of God, this does not mean his/her prior belief was not 'strong.' It just means, in light of the new evidence, (s)he has no choice but to be honest with themselves.
Because many people do not know how to read context as you have just proved.
I won't do your work for you either
It is not a true scotsman fallacy, as I showed you again and again. someone who curses God is definitely not a real Christian, as a real one loves God beyond anything else in this world.
So in your example, YEC or OEC, does not matter if he/she takes the Bible literally, if he/she cursed God, he/she is not a real Christian. In my example, when Bohr argues against Einstein, even when Einstein win, he still has faith in his own argument, and even after Einstein was supposedly disprove by experiments, others continued to have faith in Einstein and might have hope to debunk the other side.
Oh, but you've got it right and everyone else has it wrong. Despite the fact that they are just as sure that they've got it right as you are.
You love to put words into people's mouths don't you? Welcome to the conversation. Feel free to ask @cvanwey I have never once claimed I've "got it right". I even warned him to take any answers from me with a grain of salt!
There will be times where I fail to see the context, and the same goes for you and the next person, because we ALL have blindspots.
So you aren't claiming that you've got it right, but you ARE claiming that I've got it wrong.
Feel free to get a second opinion, or a third, and maybe a fourth.
Let me know what they say.
Okay.
I checked what was said by Frank Zindler (Interim President and current member of the Board of Directors at American Atheists), and Dan Barker (who was an evangelical Christian preacher and composer for 19 years before leaving Christianity in 1984 and is currently co-president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation with his wife). They both agree with me. SOURCE 1 SOURCE 2
Those men sound very reputable but unfortunately your sources have done nada to prove that either one of us is right. They are simply pointing out a contradiction which you have already done without their help. I have tried my best to help clear up your apparent confusion concerning this contradiction but if you wish to believe that Moses literally saw God’s face and Jacob literally wrestled with God then you are free to. Good luck finding some sources that will support that though. (Leaders of organizations that do not even think God is real will probably not be very helpful in this debate.)
Ah, so people who do not believe in God can't help me, but people who DO believe in God can? Funny how if I posted a source from a believer who was saying how it WASN'T a contradiction, you wouldn't have a problem with it. Those double standards are icky, aren't they?
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