Purveyor of Confusion

[thomas_t]

I've tried to ask Him, and the request remains unanswered. Maybe you, the claimed truly faithful, might have better luck.

why should I do that? You do ask me to do it.
But whenever there is not sufficient clarity on a matter in the Bible, God wanted it so.
If ever God is unclear in the Bible concerning a matter, ... he is so on purpose.
Lack of clarity can be of use, too, I think.

I do want to align myself to God and this is why I do not to provide the clarity for themes God himself did not provide an answer for in his Bible.

'Thomas' - The verse tells believers that they will still go to heaven, but maybe not be given all privileges. Or, it is left to conjecture and not clarified.

here you misquoted. I say: either @dcalling is right, or in case he is not ... God is unclear concerning the limitations these persons have to suffer.
I think dcalling is right indeed, though.

I think that God being unclear or "ambivalent" as you put it, about something does not lead to confusion. In my opinion it is possible to be not confused and not omniscient at the same time.

 

[SPF]

If I knew the passage was from God, and not some human's interpretation of what the author meant, I would at least accept the answer.

Maybe you can pick up where he has left off? Can you, as a true believer, ask God to clarify this verse?

And once we get God's answer, we can then know the answer to the riddle I posed long ago....

I see a bit of a problem with your request. You've acknowledged that you don't believe God exists. How then is it possible for you to believe a passage is from God if you don't believe He exists?

You seem to think yourself a credible theologian in your own right. So I don't think there's actually anything I can say about the verse that you will accept. What precisely would it take for you to consider what I say about the verse to be from God and not my humanly interpretation?

 

[cvanwey]

why should I do that?

- Well, because I am politely asking.

- Well, to avoid countless more exchanges of unresolved 'conjecture', between two humans in disagreement. - To resolve the question once and for all.

- Well, because I used to ask God direct questions myself, and received no apparent response. So now I ask others of claimed faith to do it for me.

- Well, because I provided many verses, which seems to suggest that God has absolutely no problem following; especially if you are an earnest believer seeking clarity upon His Word(s).

You do ask me to do it.

Does God have the ability to answer the question?

But whenever there is not sufficient clarity on a matter in the Bible, God wanted it so.

How do you know this? Is this what He says in the Bible, or, is this what He tells you directly?

If ever God is unclear in the Bible concerning a matter, ... he is so on purpose.
Lack of clarity can be of use, too, I think.

In a nutshell, sounds as if you are saying...

God provides at least (3) separate passages in the Bible, regarding what [not] to do, i.e. He will never forgive you. But, He chooses not to clarify what exactly this involves, and how it is involved?

I do want to align myself to God and this is why I do not to provide the clarity for themes God himself did not provide an answer for in his Bible.

You can align yourself with God, by following the many verses I have already provided (i.e.) Matthew 7:7 etc etc etc. You are aligning yourself with God by asking Him. So please... Ask Him what He means by Matthew 12:32?

here you misquoted. I say: either @dcalling is right, or in case he is not ... God is unclear concerning the limitations these persons have to suffer.
I think dcalling is right indeed, though.

I think that God being unclear or "ambivalent" as you put it, about something does not lead to confusion. In my opinion it is possible to be not confused and not omniscient at the same time.

I did not misquote. You admit the verse us up to 'interpretation', and that "the unforgiven Christians, still being allowed to a lesser heaven, cannot be removed from the table as an option."

And if dcalling is right, then the verse(s) are pointless. If no one can commit this sin, then it is pointless to tell the readers that to commit such a sin is unforgivable; while offering no further explanation to boot. All the verse might do is pointlessly scare many.

In conclusion, to settle the matter, please ask God for me. Once we get THE answer, then we can at least determine in my original hypothesis stands...

"Blasphemy negates faith. This means 'faith' is not enough"

 

[cvanwey]

I see a bit of a problem with your request. You've acknowledged that you don't believe God exists. How then is it possible for you to believe a passage is from God if you don't believe He exists?

Great question...

Yes. I've made no bones about the fact my doubt for God's existence. One of these reasons is because when I was a believer, I never felt I received an answer in prayer. I would assume you believe God both listens, and maybe even answers your prayers.

Thus, I can only imagine such requests have already been made to God. And yet, the fact remains that God cares not to clarify such verse, as evidence by the confusion here. This tells me that either God does not care to elaborate, or, maybe, just maybe, this Book was written by humans, and nothing more.

Thus, if both are true, that He both listens and answers, then I ask you, yet again.

Can you pray to God, in accordance with Matthew 7:7, etc etc etc? Then can you relay to me what He states?

Again, here is my humble request...

"What do You mean exactly when you gave to humans the passage Matthew 12:32?"

You seem to think yourself a credible theologian in your own right. So I don't think there's actually anything I can say about the verse that you will accept. What precisely would it take for you to consider what I say about the verse to be from God and not my humanly interpretation?

Another great question! I honestly do not know. But God would.

Just like if I were to ask you, what exactly would it take for you to believe in 'X'?

And thus far, my original title stands 'Purveyor of Confusion." Meaning, either God chooses to allow for many people to earnestly misinterpret His message(s). Or maybe, the actual authors of the Bible did not collaborate quite enough? And hence, later was born "Christian apologetics' to meld all of this together somehow?

 

[SPF]

Can you pray to God, in accordance with Matthew 7:7, etc etc etc? Then can you relay to me what He states?

And on what basis would you determine whether or not you accept what I say?

 

[cvanwey]

And on what basis would you determine whether or not you accept what I say?

The 'chess game' continues....

To answer our question, it depends.... Do you believe in both petitionary and intercessory prayer? If yes, great. If not, then we may have a little problem.

I need to know how you are, and are not, going to proceed first...

 

[SPF]

The 'chess game' continues....

To answer our question, it depends.... Do you believe in both petitionary and intercessory prayer? If yes, great. If not, then we may have a little problem.

I need to know how you are, and are not, going to proceed first...

Actually, I don't think it matters what I say, and it doesn't matter whether or not you accept what I say. I could explain the passage to you. But even if what I said made perfect sense to you, all you would respond with is, "well, these 10 theologians all disagree with you, so my point still stands."

You don't need to be asking anyone what they believe a particular passage teaches or means to try and establish your point. Especially when you already consider yourself a high quality couch theologian on these forums and think your contradictory thoughts on passages are what Scripture actually teaches.

All you need to do is ask why it appears that 4 humble, godly, respectable men could all pray for guidance over passage X and all walk away with a different (and contradictory) understanding of said passage.

 

[cvanwey]

Actually, I don't think it matters what I say, and it doesn't matter whether or not you accept what I say. I could explain the passage to you. But even if what I said made perfect sense to you, all you would respond with is, "well, these 10 theologians all disagree with you, so my point still stands."

You don't need to be asking anyone what they believe a particular passage teaches or means to try and establish your point. Especially when you already consider yourself a high quality couch theologian on these forums and think your contradictory thoughts on passages are what Scripture actually teaches.

All you need to do is ask why it appears that 4 humble, godly, respectable men could all pray for guidance over passage X and all walk away with a different (and contradictory) understanding of said passage.

I thought we were going to start making progress. But you just retracted, and changed the subject. If you can demonstrate that God is able to give you THE answer, then I will accept this as God's answer.

Sure, I might not agree, or whatever, but that is besides the point really. At least we will know what God meant by Matthew 12:32

So again, let's go back to the last part of productivity, before you instead decided to divert into ad hominem attacks.

In line with Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, and John 16:23, does God answer to both petitionary and intercessory prayers?

Remember, you asked me of my criteria. I'm trying to get there with you...

 

[SPF]

If you can demonstrate that God is able to give you THE answer, then I will accept this as God's answer.

This is just laughable, it really is. You don't believe that God exists. How, pray tell, am I supposed to demonstrate to you that the answer I have is from God, when you don't believe that He exists? What criteria are you going to use to judge my explanation?

 

[cvanwey]

This is just laughable, it really is. You don't believe that God exists. How, pray tell, am I supposed to demonstrate to you that the answer I have is from God, when you don't believe that He exists? What criteria are you going to use to judge my explanation?

Third request...

In line with Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, and John 16:23, does God answer to both petitionary and intercessory prayers?

Depending on your yes/no answer, I will be happy to elaborate. But getting simple answers from you is like 'pulling teeth' apparently.

 

[SPF]

Third request...

In line with Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, and John 16:23, does God answer to both petitionary and intercessory prayers?

Depending on your yes/no answer, I will be happy to elaborate. But getting simple answers from you is like 'pulling teeth' apparently.

Sorry, you don't get to dictate terms. I'm willing to engage in discussion, but only when you're being genuine, which frankly, you rarely are, albeit it's so a part of who you are it seems to be subconscious. That's why I'm drawing this particular point out, and you need to be honest and address it.

If you can demonstrate that God is able to give you THE answer, then I will accept this as God's answer.

By what criteria are you going to judge whether what I say to be from God, or from my own interpretation? How is someone who denies the existence of God capable of even doing that?

Answer that, and we can continue. But just to be charitable - while I don't think you actually understand what any of those verses mean that you quoted, which then leads to a faulty view of God - Yes, God answers our prayers.

 

[cvanwey]

Sorry, you don't get to dictate terms.

I asked you a very simple question. A follow up question, based upon a very important question you asked me. Not sure why you are getting so defensive...

I'm willing to engage in discussion, but only when you're being genuine, which frankly, you rarely are, albeit it's so a part of who you are it seems to be subconscious. That's why I'm drawing this particular point out, and you need to be honest and address it.

This is false. I told you, that I doubt God exists. I told you that my perception is that humans, and humans alone, wrote such verses. I also informed you that if God does exist, He cares not to elaborate. This is honest. But if ad homs is all you have to offer, than sobeit. This is the apologetics forum. I'm am here to challenge your faith.

By what criteria are you going to judge whether what I say to be from God, or from my own interpretation? How is someone who denies the existence of God capable of even doing that?

If you would answer the dang question, we will get there. We could have been there by now, but here we are, at attempt #5:

Post #305 you asked:

And on what basis would you determine whether or not you accept what I say?

Post #306:

I responded:

To answer our question, it depends.... Do you believe in both petitionary and intercessory prayer? If yes, great. If not, then we may have a little problem.

I need to know how you are, and are not, going to proceed first...

Answer that, and we can continue. But just to be charitable - while I don't think you actually understand what any of those verses mean that you quoted, which then leads to a faulty view of God - Yes, God answers our prayers.

Okay, thanks for the 'couch theologian' assessment of my understanding

Does He answer to intercessory prayers, or just petitionary? This is the important part. I want to be perfectly clear, so I do not offer any type of straw man.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

1. How does one achieve salvation? Stating 'Jesus is the way', is erroneous and undefined.

Not really. You were asking how to get salvation: well Jesus is the how. It may be undefined but it is certainly not erroneous. Don't confine yourself to passages that you feel are confusing. Read the whole New Testament (always a good exercise). You don't even have to read it in the order that it is presented (which isn't chronological anyway). If you do you will see time and time again that salvation is found in Jesus. So faith in Jesus is the first step. Faith in Jesus is the next step. After that comes Faith in Jesus and then a bit of Faith in Jesus. After a while there is some Faith in Jesus and then you have Faith in Jesus to look forward to while you are having Faith in Jesus. And finally at the end it will be Faith in Jesus. Salvation is found in no other name (Acts 4:12).

Is it

Romans 10:9-10, is it Matthew 25:31-46, is it Luke 14:25-33, is it a combo deal? Is it simply grace? Is it other?

You can add as many verses as you like, but sooner or later you will see that that they are all pointing in the same direction: Faith in Jesus. That is how you get saved. Everything else springs from that.

2. What about the ones whom cannot perform any of these traits? -- The ones born with severe defects, the still-born, child death, other? Does the Bible mention if these people get a free pass?

Catered for. Still-born and child death have committed no sin and therefore have nothing to be redeemed from. Likewise those who have mental defects that prevent them from understanding anything. But if you can understand mentally, you can put your Faith in Jesus and there you go...

3. You state reading the Bible is what turned you from an atheist to a believer. What did it for you?

Oh I'm not sure that I would go as far as making it the sole reason, but reading the Bible helped me on the way from atheism to agnosticism. And from there I became a Christian.

 

[SPF]

Does He answer to intercessory prayers

He can, yes.

A wonderful model of intercessory prayer is found in Daniel 9. It has all the elements of true intercessory prayer. It is in response to the Word (v. 2); characterized by fervency (v. 3) and self-denial (v. 4); identified unselfishly with God’s people (v. 5); strengthened by confession (v. 5-15); dependent on God’s character (vv. 4, 7, 9, 15); and has as its goal God’s glory (vv. 16-19).

Like Daniel, Christians are to come to God on behalf of others in a heartbroken and repentant attitude, recognizing their own unworthiness and with a sense of self-denial. Daniel does not say, “I have a right to demand this out of You, God, because I am one of your special, chosen intercessors.” He says, “I’m a sinner,” and, in effect, “I do not have a right to demand anything.” True intercessory prayer seeks not only to know God’s will and see it fulfilled, but to see it fulfilled whether or not it benefits us and regardless of what it costs us. True intercessory prayer seeks God’s glory, not our own.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

ALL I said in my initial post, is that if professed Christians, whom have not read the Bible, were to read the Bible, you would come away with less believers. I can attest to this... me

And 'would' is definitive, but 'might' would have been more accurate.

I also know professed Christians, whom have not read the Bible, who then did so and ... remained believers. Reading the Bible is not the issue. It is the preconceptions you have when you go in, which can include wrong theology, brainwashing or even skepticism.

To a certain extent you see what you want to see, but that makes it good for people to challenge your preconceptions. The problem arises when their preconceptions are worse than yours.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Let me elaborate... I'm aware of 'poetry', 'parables', etc...

But let's start with Genesis. Was the flood a literal event? Seems as though we could devote 100 pages to this question alone; demonstrating possible confusion

Well, either it was or it wasn't. To a certain extent it doesn't actually matter - after all it is a story and it has a purpose in being told. So the person who thinks it was a literal event and the person who thinks it is a metaphor and the person who thinks that there was a big flood but not to the extent stated are all going to get the same things out of it in the end: God rescues the righteous and will never destroy mankind by a flood.

Try reading John Walton's books. He has written 'The Lost World of the Flood' although I've not read that one so can't comment on whether it makes sense, but his other 'Lost World' books take the approach of looking at how the Israelites who first heard these stories would have viewed them and show how it is possible to both read them literally and still hold to the modern scientific cosmology and evolution.

 

[cvanwey]

He can, yes.

Okay, great. Thank you.

Here we go....

Pray for God to instill 'the answer', in regards to the correct translation for Matthew 12:32, into me. If I receive it, I will not only know that the Christian God exists, but that He instilled upon me the correct answer. I will then relay this answer to you, (before you tell me), to prove that God gave me an answer that I did not already have - which perfectly coincides and aligns with the one you claim God already gave to you.

If I receive no such response, and continue to translate this verse, as I already have, then I can only speculate that maybe God either did not answer your intercessory request, or there is no God to answer such requests....

The very same reason that if someone, whom asserts they speak to some opposing god, in front of you, and you ask them to prove it; but they then give you some excuse, as given below in 'Daniel', you would likely hand-wave away their anecdotal claims as well

Furthermore, you did not address the many verses offered, and why they DO NOT mean what they say. You merely insulted my intelligence, without proper cause or justification. You instead only interject other verse, and/or your own opinion, to side-step the presented possible conflict.

Please do me a solid, and pray for God to give me the wisdom. Not only to recognize His magnificent existence, but to also enlighten me as to what Matthew 12:32 means. Because, as it stands, if this verse means what I thinks it means, and I later decide to come to Jesus, I'm hosed - not matter what.

So please, at least, have Jesus provide the appropriate meaning. And when He does, I will happily relay this information to you, so you know He did give it to me. You will then, single-handly, have proven God to me. And this cannot be a bad thing....?

Otherwise, it again is no different than someone on the street corner stating god speaks to them.

A wonderful model of intercessory prayer is found in Daniel 9. It has all the elements of true intercessory prayer. It is in response to the Word (v. 2); characterized by fervency (v. 3) and self-denial (v. 4); identified unselfishly with God’s people (v. 5); strengthened by confession (v. 5-15); dependent on God’s character (vv. 4, 7, 9, 15); and has as its goal God’s glory (vv. 16-19).

Like Daniel, Christians are to come to God on behalf of others in a heartbroken and repentant attitude, recognizing their own unworthiness and with a sense of self-denial. Daniel does not say, “I have a right to demand this out of You, God, because I am one of your special, chosen intercessors.” He says, “I’m a sinner,” and, in effect, “I do not have a right to demand anything.” True intercessory prayer seeks not only to know God’s will and see it fulfilled, but to see it fulfilled whether or not it benefits us and regardless of what it costs us. True intercessory prayer seeks God’s glory, not our own.

Funny how I mentioned many verses from the NT, and what directly came out of Jesus' mouth. And you must refer to the OT for clarification....? Why not address what Jesus said, in context in the verses provided, for which they were said. I doubt Jesus made any special references to 'Daniel'. I'm sure the true meaning of intercessory prayer is only found in Daniel, and excludes the seemingly literal messages, as given directly from Jesus in the verses I provided.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Deleted because the quotes all got messed up. Sorry. See my next response

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Even as a Christian, this parable looks to send the message that helping others IS the criteria for which Jesus will judge you. Thus, at BEST, to support [your] position, it's a combo of faith and works. But then the question becomes... How much faith, how much works?

Only if this is the only passage you read. I've already pointed out that it is only part of a puzzle and when you put it together it does make sense.

Thus, at BEST, to support [your] position, it's a combo of faith and works. But then the question becomes... How much faith, how much works?

1) How much Faith: All
2) How much Works: If you have to ask, then you don't yet have enough faith.

And at worst, meaning, for all the ones whom read this passage and scratch their heads - (both Christians or just curious onlookers), it's quite possible Jesus' meter-stick for salvation is based upon humans helping other humans. -- Which is not necessary a 'bad' thing, in 'my book.'

Nor mine.

The 'bad' part remains, is that we have confusion, from both believers and 'nitpickers', whom might be here to merely chastise Chapter and Verse.

For 2000 years Christians have looked at this and any confusion has been wiped away by the process of study and teaching. So it clearly isn't has confusing as you would like it to be. So I don't think believers have all that much of an issue.

As for the nitpickers like yourself, nothing will satisfy.

Or to put it another way there are two ways of looking at the verse.

1) Believers - they look at it see it in the context of the New Testament teaching on Salvation and understand the purpose of the parable and the teaching. To them it all fits together logically.

2) Nitpickers - they look at it in isolation and cannot fathom the purpose of the parable and its teaching. It makes no logical sense.

So the choice is to read it in an illogical way so that it makes no sense or read it in a logical way so that it makes sense.

It is illogical to read it in the illogical way!

 

[cvanwey]

And 'would' is definitive, but 'might' would have been more accurate.

No. I used the correct word here. Case/point... There was ultimately one, or more, less; including when I read the Bible.

I also know professed Christians, whom have not read the Bible, who then did so and ... remained believers. Reading the Bible is not the issue. It is the preconceptions you have when you go in, which can include wrong theology, brainwashing or even skepticism.

To a certain extent you see what you want to see, but that makes it good for people to challenge your preconceptions. The problem arises when their preconceptions are worse than yours.

Separate point. And yes, I agree.

But my above point stands. Seeing conflict(s), inaccuracies, and 'tough moral pronouncements' does lead some believers away from the Bible.