Purpose of Sacraments

[VOW]

We get folks of all kinds here, damaris. You may be the first English major, I don't know. Got a couple of history majors; I think Jukes is a wanna-be history teacher, IIRC. I do know he's a cop, now. I was giggling about our fluent typo-itis around here, and picturing an English major either cringing, or aching to edit.

As for your other question, there's no smiles with that. For a Catholic who truly understands the Sacraments, who knows and believes what the Church teaches, and who also accepts that the Church was founded by Jesus upon Peter, yet chooses to leave...that person is placing his or her soul in jeopardy.

People leave the Church all the time. Frequently, there's a divorce, and a person wishes to remarry, without the hassle of trying to obtain an annulment. Or perhaps an annulment has been denied. Many Catholics are the product of inadequate spiritual education, and they truly don't KNOW what the Church teaches. So when they are approached by an evangelical Protestant who is determined to show them "the real Jesus," they are swayed by the arguments. Their claim is, "I wasn't getting what I needed in the Catholic Church." You could attribute those defections to misunderstandings. And the Church recognizes those, and doesn't pass condemnation upon them.

But for someone who knows and believes the Catholic Church holds the fullness of the Original Deposit of Faith, yet still decides to leave, the Church grieves. You may liken it to the parable of the Prodigal Son. The departure is seen as an act of defiance against the Church.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Joseph16]

This is my first chance to get back on CF today and I just wanted to thank everyone.  Your answers were great and helped to reafirm my own beliefs and to clear up some confusion between the Church's teachings (or what had been suggested to me as being the Church's teachings) and my own beliefs.  Thanks again.

 

[Hoonbaba]

Honestly I think VOW's chainsaw/hand axe analogy was good enough for me

Both get the job done, but one works better

In anycase, Catholics teach that baptism is 'necessary' for salvation.  heh, this statement probably brings in more confusion.  The doctrine they teach is 'baptismal regeneration'.  But keep in mind this is not a Catholic-only teaching.

Church of Christ, Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox, and Catholics all agree on baptismal regeneration.  I don't want to get into all the specifics, but baptism and faith are linked, so those who chose to follow Christ would enter into the covenant with our Lord through baptism.  That's why John 3:5 speaks of being born of water and of the Spirit for entrance into the kingdom.  And Apostle Peter mentions how baptism saves (1 Pet 3:21).

At this point, you may be wondering:  Then what's salvation by grace!?  When apostle Paul was saying we're saved by grace, not of works (eph 2:8), his use of the word 'works' was referring to works of the law, which brought death (2 Cor 3:6-7).  And baptism is not a work of the law, otherwise Jesus's command to baptize (Matt 28:19) would bring death upon all believers!

In anycase, this page has solid answers to common questions on baptism:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/406802.htm

God bless!

-Jason

 

[damaris13]

Don't worry VOW, I won't correct any typos in here other than my own (because I know I make plenty when I'm typing fast). And I understand what you are saying about what the Catholic Church teaches, but I'm going to have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. Cool beans guys! Thank you for your help!

Hoonbaba--quick question about the link you gave me. What about those individuals who believe but were never given the opportunity to have a formal baptism or were not informed that baptism was needed for salvation? Just curious about your opinion there.

Thanks all!
Smiles!
damaris

 

[VOW]

I'll bust in.

A believer who doesn't have the opportunity to be baptized before death experiences what the Church calls a "Baptism by Desire." Through no fault of his or her own, baptism was not possible. The Church teaches the mercy of the Almighty God, and this situation is like a "technicality."

There is a third type of baptism also recognized. In the case of a martyr who has died for the faith before being baptized, this experience is called a "Baptism by Blood." Most martyrs died very gruesome deaths.


Peace,
~VOW

 

[damaris13]

Cool beans. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Theresa]

These are two great links, the first one is long but you can get a good idea even if you read only a little bit and the second one is a list of different essays you can review:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/SACRMNT.TXT

http://ic.net/~erasmus/ERASMUS8.HTM

Theresa

 

[seebs]

Y'know, VOW, I think you've hit on one of the core things that people get wrong.

A merciful and just God does not grade us on technicalities. People sometimes assert that "justice" requires absolute adherence to rules, but it doesn't; justice includes knowing when the rule doesn't apply well.

 

[VOW]

To seebs:

Some people love to get caught up in the details. I'm sure there will be accountants in heaven, on their own little cloud, with plenty of beans for them to put into piles over and over.


Peace,
~VOW

 

[damaris13]

Originally posted by VOW
To seebs:

Some people love to get caught up in the details. I'm sure there will be accountants in heaven, on their own little cloud, with plenty of beans for them to put into piles over and over.


Peace,
~VOW

VOW--most definitely an accountant's heaven, but as for me that definitely would be hell!  Would you consider yourself as one who gets caught up in the details? 

But for someone who knows and believes the Catholic Church holds the fullness of the Original Deposit of Faith, yet still decides to leave, the Church grieves. You may liken it to the parable of the Prodigal Son. The departure is seen as an act of defiance against the Church.

Can I go back for a moment to this.  I was just rereading it and am confused.  Is leaving the Catholic Church seen as turning your back on God?

smiles!

Jesus loves you !

damaris

 

[VOW]

To danaris:

I'm not saying the accountants get ALL of Heaven. But their little corner will have plenty of beans to count, over and over.

Is leaving the Catholic Church seen as turning your back on God?

If you KNOW that the Church is the one founded by Christ upon Peter, and you believe in the Sacraments, yet you willingly leave, it could be construed as thumbing your nose at God.

And I think that is why your future in-laws are so upset.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[dignitized]

just so long as we all agree that there will be absolutely NO personal injury lawyers in heaven I have no issue with a few bean counters being up there . . .

OH and I for one am sure that who ever the heathen was who invented the cell phone is burning in hell . . . . Can you tell I HATE phones??

 

[VOW]

To Br Max:

I'll join your "hate phones" club. I'm hearing impaired, and I finally just said, "Forget the phones." At home, my family does the phone duty for me. At work, someone else can take care of it.

May I also add insurance companies to the "Hell" list?


Peace,
~VOW

 

[damaris13]

VOW, don't worry I wasn't saying that accountants get all of heaven.  I was just saying that counting beans would be heaven for them and hell for me (I'm not a numbers person; I'm a words person).

Originally posted by VOW
If you KNOW that the Church is the one founded by Christ upon Peter, and you believe in the Sacraments, yet you willingly leave, it could be construed as thumbing your nose at God.

And I think that is why your future in-laws are so upset.

I honestly wish it weren't this way, but you are probably right on why they are upset.  I have been trying to learn about what the Catholic Church teaches, one of which topics is the Sacraments.  I was informed at one time that the Sacraments were taught as having a helping hand in one's salvation, which for obvious reasons I have to disagree with.  After reading the posts in this thread, I do not believe the Catholic Church teaches that; however, I also do not believe the Catholic Church is alone in the emphasis of making these moments in life (i.e., confirmation and marriage) important in one's relationship with God.  God should be present in all one does and be glorified in every decision and public engagement (marriage, occupation, etc).  Despite what is taught by the Catholic Church (correct me if I'm wrong), IMO ALL Christians receive the grace of God in these areas of life if they desire to do the works of God and behave accordingly.

Obviously, as many of my posts have shown, I do not hold a full understanding of what the Catholic Church teaches, but there are a few things I do disagree with.  That's fine.  I'm not asking my fiance to change his mind on those differences, nor am I asking anyone else to.  I just would like for them to try and understand my beliefs and where I come from for a change instead of always stating that I am wrong.  The way we understand the other is to suspend disbelief about the other's beliefs for awhile and respect the other's point of view.  I'm disappointed that many cannot do this (and I am in no way implying that you are one of them VOW because you are not.  You do a wonderful job of attempting to clarify different teachings of the Catholic Church.  I just have trouble understanding some and where they come from, but still cannot say they are outright wrong.)  Man can never know the whole truth no matter how long and hard we search.  It's just not possible.  I believe our minds are incapable of understanding absolute truth.  If we were, we would be at the level of God. 

Ok, rambled long enough.  Time to meet the fiance for dinner.  Back in a while.

Smiles

Jesus loves you!

damaris

 

[VOW]

To damaris:

Well, the journey for understanding is different for each of us.

One thing that might help you with this is to back away from your Protestant viewpoint for a second. It will be difficult, I know, but bear with me.

(and I'm sympathetic, because I AM a convert myself, and it takes a bit of doing to change your perspective)

As a Protestant, if you are unhappy in your present church, you are free to "shop around." If you have always been a Baptist, say, and find that Baptists are getting to be too rigid in their thinking, then you can try a Presbyterian Church, or a Methodist Church. If you are a Methodist, and it seems too stuffy for you, then you can try the little nondenominational church that just opened up in the old storefront downtown. Protestants like to say, "You need to find a Spirit-filled, Bible-believing church!"

Five hundred or so years ago, Martin Luther was a Catholic priest. He saw some things about the way his area was being run, and there were some practices that made him unhappy. (I'm sure you've heard the "selling of indulgences") It was more than that, though. Some of his complaints were legitimate, others were of his own making. The more we've learned of Martin Luther, the more we understand he probably had some psychological problems, too, that fed his discontent. He was also an extremely brilliant man. All of those were a volatile combination, and Marty finally made his unhappiness known. His "protest" was like the snowball in the cartoons that begins rolling down a mountain: uncontrollable, and bigger with every turn. He was even invited to sit down with Catholic Church leaders and WORK with them over his gripes. But by that time, he had a momentum that couldn't be stopped. He also had "groupies" who convinced him that reconciliation wasn't in anyone's best interest. Thus, the Protestant separation from the Catholic Church.

Marty led the pack. Once he opened the door for private interpretation of the Bible, and the "cafeteria plan" for choosing sacraments, ANYONE could validate his own personal inspiration from the Holy Spirit and splinter away yet again.

You'll hear numbers thrown around, anywhere from 5000 to 30,000 individual Protestant Churches now, thanks to Mister Luther's leadership. If you don't like the way the Lutheran Church, the Methodist Church, the Congregationalist Church, the Baptist Church, the Presbyterian Church, or any other "mainstream" Protestant Church handles worship, well, you can set up shop with Bible in hand and declare your OWN church.

Here in Christian Forums, the folks can provide you with any number of interpretations of what Scripture says. And each one will feel that he or she has the "correct" interpretation, because the Holy Spirit says so. Things get pretty heated, too. You'll hear a lot of "agree to disagree" being tied onto white flags that are waved in the air, in the hopes of a peaceful resolution. Predestination, Reformation, OSAS vs OSNAS, literal Bible interpretation, Creationism, all of it.... it's amazing.

But for Catholics, there IS no dissension. You may WANT to "agree to disagree" with the Catholic Church, but ultimately, the final say-so belongs to the CHURCH. Because the CHURCH is the guardian of the Original Deposit of Faith. The Church understands how to use Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition together to extract the teachings that are presented to the Body of Christ. When a Catholic gets into a discussion, and gives an interpretation, unless he or she follows with a disclaimer, "And this is my personal observation," the viewpoint will be as one, the one of the Church. You don't DISAGREE with the Church.

That chafes a lot of people.

But look at what happens when you disagree: you get 30,000 different ideas on what is right.

As I said earlier, I'm a convert. I researched everything before I became convinced that the Catholic Church is indeed the one that Jesus Himself founded. Of course, I also believe I was led to the Church by the Holy Spirit. But if anyone is going to argue, it's going to be me. I probably argued with the doctor the night I was born. I KNOW I argued with my mother, because I was over a month premature, LOL. Even as a young child, I was disappointed with the hypocrisy I saw in the various Protestant Churches. When I was in High School and College, I was so disillusioned, I called myself an Agnostic. But I was DRAWN to find God. I took several "Bible as Literature" classes, and I read everything I could get my hands on.

The more I searched, the closer I became to the Catholic Church.

I joined the Church over twenty years ago. I still read everything I can get my hands on. I still study and learn. And NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING I have learned in those twenty-some years has taught me anthing other than the Catholic Church is the one that Jesus founded on Peter.

I'm not a perfect Catholic. I've had my own disagreements with things the Church teaches. But I kept my disagreements to myself, and I simply kept learning. And through the years, my disagreements become fewer and fewer, because I find out MORE about the Church and WHY certain things are taught.

And it still makes incredible sense to me.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[damaris13]

You just proved my point, VOW, by asking me to suspend my Protestant beliefs. I have been doing that in an attempt to understand what the Catholic Church teaches and believes. As a convert you have the advantage of having seen the other side, albeit a not-so-great experience with the Protestant denominations. I have had the not-so-great experiences with the Catholic church. We are even. What discourages me is that we are both Christian, but the Catholic Church teaches that because I know what the Catholic Church teaches and do not believe it I will be going to hell. But they also teach that those who do not know what the Catholic Church teaches may truly desire to be members of the Catholic Church and are not going to hell. My desire is to live for God and follow in the footsteps of Jesus. These footsteps have not led me in the direction of joining the Catholic Church because I cannot accept fully what she teaches. I've been over that many times, but you continuously tell me that if I suspend my Protestant beliefs I will come to realize the Catholic Church is right. I honestly do not believe any church on earth has it completely right because they are run by MAN. Even OT churches got it wrong on occasion and God butted in to straighten things out. Okay, and to finish with that phrase you seem to think is a cop-out: we're going to have to agree to disagree. I cannot tell you I believe the Catholic Church to be wrong because to do so would be to state that everything the Church teaches is false, which is not true. However, I cannot say that the Catholic Church is true because I do not agree with certain teachings. Am I repeating myself? I feel like I am. Sorry. You just make it out to look like that because I am not drawn to the Catholic Church I am not drawn to God.

smiles
Jesus loves you!
damaris

 

[Joseph16]

Originally posted by damaris13
the Catholic Church teaches that because I know what the Catholic Church teaches and do not believe it I will be going to hell.

I can't quote specific writings or teachings and this may merely be a misunderstanding but you are not going to hell. I don't think this is what VOW was trying to convey either. For starters this would be entirely too judgemental for man, or her for that matter. Either way though, the issue is not whether or not you KNOW what the Church teaches but whether or not you BELIEVE what the Church teaches. Just because you know and disagree does not **** you. If you hold the Catholic Church to be the one true Church and you believe its teachings, but still turn your back on the Church, then you will have to face the judgement of the Lord, but not man. The key is in your belief and whether or not you are true to that and obvioulsy in turn true to God.

Yours In Christ,
Fred

 

[damaris13]

Thank you for the reassurance Joseph.

smiles!
Jesus loves you!
damaris

 

[Joseph16]

Sorry, I guess the CF Editor didn't like my choice of words...you can substitute "send you to hell."

Your's in Christ,
Fred

 

[VOW]

To damaris:

Fred has it right.

The suspension of your Protestant POV was to get you to see that Catholics don't have the privilege of "shopping around" to find a church that fits the way THEY believe. If I attend the Catholic Church in the south part of town, it is going to have the same teachings as the Catholic Church at the north end of town, or the one in the next town over. The congregation mix may be different, but they will all have the same Readings from the Lectionary, and the same order of services in the Mass.

As a matter of fact, I actually attend two different Catholic Churches. With my family, I attend the one that is closest to our home. During the week, I attend Noon Mass at the Church which is close to work.

I can't judge you, damaris. Actually, the Catholic Church can't condemn you, either. The entire FOCUS of the Catholic Church is to bring you to God.


Peace be with you,
~VOW