Purgatory

[Xeno.of.athens]

The question is purgatory a punishment as per Lyons or a purification as per St. Mark of Ephesus.

A fire both purges and burns, the idea appears to be purification and loss both in the same act of purging.

 

[BobRyan]

The question is purgatory a punishment as per Lyons or a purification as per St. Mark of Ephesus.

I provided almost a dozen quotes from official Catholic documents saying it is a punishment. #4

But that would require "paying attention to the details"

Brevity is a blessing; it can make a post better reading.

Maybe we should only read the one-page books of the Bible like Titus and Jude so it will be more interesting??

================== from post #4

"Augustine (De Civ. Dei, lib. XXI, cap.xiii and xvi) declares that the punishment of purgatory is temporary and will cease, at least with the Last Judgment... Augustine in Ps. 37 n. 3, speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P. L., col. 397). Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and he adds "'that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life" (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1). Following in the footsteps of Gregory , St. Thomas teaches (IV, dist. xxi, q. i, a.1) that besides the separation of the soul from the sight of God , there is the other punishment from fire. "Una poena damni, in quantum scilicet retardantur a divina visione; alia sensus secundum quod ab igne punientur", and St. Bonaventure not only agrees with St. Thomas but adds (IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1, q. ii) that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life; "Gravior est omni temporali poena. quam modo sustinet anima carni conjuncta".

"1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old

The Catechism states

1031: "The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent"

=================
Council of Florence (1438-1443):
"If they have died repentant for their sins and having love of God, but have not made satisfaction for things they have done or omitted by fruits worthy of penance, then their souls, after death, are cleansed by the punishment of Purgatory...the suffrages of the faithful still living are efficacious in bringing them relief from such punishment, namely the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers and almsgiving and other works of piety which, in accordance with
the designation of the Church, are customarily offered by the faithful for each other."
... (remainder of post deleted here for brevity)

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

A fire both purges and burns, the idea appears to be purification and loss both in the same act of purging.

I provided almost a dozen quotes from official Catholic documents saying it is a punishment. #4

================== from post #4

"Augustine (De Civ. Dei, lib. XXI, cap.xiii and xvi) declares that the punishment of purgatory is temporary and will cease, at least with the Last Judgment... Augustine in Ps. 37 n. 3, speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P. L., col. 397). Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and he adds "'that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life" (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1). Following in the footsteps of Gregory , St. Thomas teaches (IV, dist. xxi, q. i, a.1) that besides the separation of the soul from the sight of God , there is the other punishment from fire. "Una poena damni, in quantum scilicet retardantur a divina visione; alia sensus secundum quod ab igne punientur", and St. Bonaventure not only agrees with St. Thomas but adds (IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1, q. ii) that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life; "Gravior est omni temporali poena. quam modo sustinet anima carni conjuncta".

"1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old

The Catechism states

1031: "The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent"

=================
Council of Florence (1438-1443):
"If they have died repentant for their sins and having love of God, but have not made satisfaction for things they have done or omitted by fruits worthy of penance, then their souls, after death, are cleansed by the punishment of Purgatory...the suffrages of the faithful still living are efficacious in bringing them relief from such punishment, namely the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers and almsgiving and other works of piety which, in accordance with
the designation of the Church, are customarily offered by the faithful for each other."
... (remainder of post deleted here for brevity)

Brevity is a blessing; it can make a post better reading.

 

[concretecamper]

I provided almost a dozen quotes from official Catholic documents saying it is a punishment. #4

================== from post #4

"Augustine (De Civ. Dei, lib. XXI, cap.xiii and xvi) declares that the punishment of purgatory is temporary and will cease, at least with the Last Judgment... Augustine in Ps. 37 n. 3, speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P. L., col. 397). Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and he adds "'that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life" (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1). Following in the footsteps of Gregory , St. Thomas teaches (IV, dist. xxi, q. i, a.1) that besides the separation of the soul from the sight of God , there is the other punishment from fire. "Una poena damni, in quantum scilicet retardantur a divina visione; alia sensus secundum quod ab igne punientur", and St. Bonaventure not only agrees with St. Thomas but adds (IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1, q. ii) that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life; "Gravior est omni temporali poena. quam modo sustinet anima carni conjuncta".

"1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old

The Catechism states

1031: "The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent"

=================
Council of Florence (1438-1443):
"If they have died repentant for their sins and having love of God, but have not made satisfaction for things they have done or omitted by fruits worthy of penance, then their souls, after death, are cleansed by the punishment of Purgatory...the suffrages of the faithful still living are efficacious in bringing them relief from such punishment, namely the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers and almsgiving and other works of piety which, in accordance with
the designation of the Church, are customarily offered by the faithful for each other."
... (remainder of post deleted here for brevity)

Seems to me you are hung up on the word punishment. Sin will be punished, and as long as you hold onto that sin, you'll incurred the punishment until you relinquish your attachment to it.

 

[BobRyan]

Seems to me you are hung up on the word punishment.

you mean from all the Catholic statements calling purgatory "punishment" and the "torment more extreme than anything a human can experience on earth" ??

You mean those Catholic statements are ... "me"????

Well the reason I "notice those Catholic statements" (which appears to be your real meaning) is because Jesus Christ took our punishment for sin on the cross.

Sin will be punished

Agreed.

The lost pay their own debt of punishment in the second death lake of fire of Rev 20.
Christ pays the debt for the saved.

, and as long as you hold onto that sin, you'll incurred the punishment

True - and the lost should think about that long and hard before rejecting Christ's forgiveness.

 

[BobRyan]

Brevity is a blessing; it can make a post better reading.

But not everyone will skim over those Catholic documents and just replay it all as "BobRyan's idea".

Some of the objective unbiased readers - read those posts.

 

[Servus]

A doctrine may be both in scripture by implication and also introduced by a Church council as Church teaching later on. These things are not mutually exclusive.

To me there's always a yes or no answer question when it comes to a teaching: Did Jesus, Paul, John or Peter teach it?

 

[concretecamper]

True - and the lost should think about that long and hard before rejecting Christ's forgiveness.

Let that sink in

 

[concretecamper]

To me there's always a yes or no answer question when it comes to a teaching: Did Jesus, Paul, John or Peter teach it?

and Scripture along with the Church Fathers both teach the need for purification after death.

 

[BobRyan]

and Scripture along with the Church Fathers both teach the need for purification after death.

Not in scripture at all.

 

[concretecamper]

Not in scripture at all.

So let it be written, so let it be done

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Not in scripture at all.

It is evident that scripture is less familiar than you may think. Have you not read, "Follow peace with all men and holiness: without which no man shall see God."

What person dies in perfect holiness? If you know some, then tell us their names, so that we can forward the information to the Curia in Rome to have them canonised as saints.

 

[Servus]

and Scripture along with the Church Fathers both teach the need for purification after death.

Jesus, Paul, John and Peter teaching it would be found in scripture. As for church fathers, the question is, was it taught by the Apostolic Fathers? If it's something that started being taught centuries later, then it doesn't have very good standing.

Not that I'm against the idea of purgatory. But no matter how much I might like the idea, the question of the origin of the idea must be asked and weighed.

 

[concretecamper]

Jesus, Paul, John and Peter teaching it would be found in scripture. As for church fathers, the question is, was it taught by the Apostolic Fathers? If it's something that started being taught centuries later, then it doesn't have very good standing.

Not that I'm against the idea of purgatory. But no matter how much I might like the idea, the question of the origin of the idea must be asked and weighed.

Jesus teaches it, Paul teaches it, the Church Fathers confirm it. This has been gone over so many times.

 

[BobRyan]

and Scripture along with the Church Fathers both teach the need for purification after death.

Not in scripture at all.

It is evident that scripture is less familiar than you may think. Have you not read, "Follow peace with all men and holiness: without which no man shall see God."

Another great example of a verse that does not mention anything about being tormented after one dies so that one can then go on to heaven.

What person dies in perfect holiness? If you know some, then tell us their names

So is this where you give up on finding such a text about being fully forgiven by Christ then getting horrific punishment after you do to fix you up for heaven??

, so that we can forward the information to the Curia in Rome to have them canonised as saints.

ahhh yes - a bible answer still not forthcoming in your posts

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus teaches it, Paul teaches it, the Church Fathers confirm it. This has been gone over so many times.

still no scripture saying man fully forgiven by Christ -- dies and then is tormented with punishment more severe than anything in this life -- so that the man may go on to heaven??

Why keep everyone waiting post after post the scriptures you claim you have put out there "so many times"?

 

[BobRyan]

To me there's always a yes or no answer question when it comes to a teaching: Did Jesus, Paul, John or Peter teach it?

reminds me of the #2 post on this thread --

The concept of purgatory is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible

Agreed.

And NOT ONE single scripture in your post that says that after one dies (who has already been fully forgiven by Christ - ) they are then subjected to punishment (torment pain and suffering more severe than anything that can be experienced in this life) -- to get cleaned up and then sent on their way to heaven.

 

[concretecamper]

still no scripture saying man fully forgiven by Christ -- dies and then is tormented with punishment more severe than anything in this life -- so that the man may go on to heaven??

Ugh, purification after death is taught in scripture and affirmed by Church teaching. You chose to ignore, but that doesn't mean it ain't true. Next please

 

[BobRyan]

Ugh, purification after death is taught in scripture

I guess when "you quote you" for that repeated claim - I am supposed to imagine that I just saw it in scripture????

Where does that idea even come from??? How do you get there?

Meanwhile your reluctance to post a single scripture saying that - man fully forgiven by Christ -- is then is tormented after dying with punishment more severe than anything in this life -- so that man may go on to heaven.

We both can see that you have not posted such a thing... How is that the least bit confusing??

 

[concretecamper]

I guess when "you quote you" for that repeated claim - I am supposed to imagine that I just saw it in scripture????

Where does that idea even come from??? How do you get there?

Meanwhile your reluctance to post a single scripture saying that - man fully forgiven by Christ -- is then is tormented after dying with punishment more severe than anything in this life -- so that man may go on to heaven.

We both can see that you have not posted such a thing... How is that the least bit confusing??

This is old news. Do a search on this forum on purgatory and you will see that the opposition to purgatory always loses. Ugh