Purgatory

[dannybias46]

[FONT=&quot]The Roman Catholic Church teaches that those who are perfect at death are admitted to heaven. Those who are not perfectly cleansed and are still tainted with the guilt of venial sins, however, do not go to heaven but rather go to purgatory where they allegedly go through a process of cleansing. (Latin "purgare" - to cleanse).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The American Heritage Dictionary[/FONT][FONT=&quot] says this about Purgatory:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“A state in which the soul of those who have died in grace must expiate their sins. A place of expiation, suffering, or remorse.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Roman Catholics say that purgatory is a place for the dead who were neither very bad nor very good. Those who die with unforgiven mortal (serious) sin go to hell, while those who live as “saints” got to heaven. Most Catholics supposedly end up in purgatory. Such souls are oppressed with a sense of deprivation and suffer certain pain. How long they stay in purgatory - and how much suffering they undergo while there - depends upon their particular state of sin. Their belief is that temporary suffering in purgatory’s fires purges souls of guilt for their venial (not so serious) sins.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Roman Catholics also teach that a person's time in purgatory may be shortened, and his pains alleviated, by the faithful prayers, alms, fasting, indulgences, and masses conducted on their behalf of those still alive. The sacrifice of the Mass is viewed as especially important in this regard. Catholics also believe that by doing good deeds can reduce the amount of suffering that one does in purgatory. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Catholics find support for this doctrine in the apocryphal book 2 Maccabees 12:42-45.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Purgatory will end with the Last Judgment at the close of the world.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Roman Catholic dogmas of purgatory were defined at the councils of Lyon (1274) and Ferrara-Florence (1438-1445) and reaffirmed at the Council of Trent (1545-1563).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]These dogmas were rejected by Luther (95 thesis), Calvin, and other leaders of the Reformation, who asserted that Christians freed from sin through faith in Jesus Christ go directly to heaven.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Purgatory is a false doctrine and is easy to prove from the Scriptures. When Jesus died on the cross, He said: "It is finished.."(John 19:30). Jesus completed the work of redemption at the cross. In His high priestly prayer to the Father, Jesus said:." I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do."(John 17:4). Hebrews 10:14 emphatically declares, "By one sacrifice he has made perfect for ever those who are being made holy." Those who believe in Christ are "made perfect" forever; no further "purging" is necessary. 1 John 1:7 says, " The blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Roman 8:1 says, " Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Jesus took care of “purging” our sins by His work of salvation at the cross.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hebrews 1:3 affirms, "After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven." Jesus provided full purification for our sins.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Scriptures knows of no in-between place for those who are neither very evil nor very good. According to the Word of God, there is no second chance after death; rather, at death a person’s destiny is sealed for torment or bliss – eternally. Listen to what the writer of the Hebrew Letter says:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hebrews 9:27 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In the Gospel of Matthew, the writer tells us that not many will find the straight path that will lead to eternal life. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 7:13-14 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. [14] But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life and only a few find it.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God’s Word speaks of only 2 alternatives that occur at death or when Jesus comes: a person is lost or saved; a person goes to torment or rest. There is no purgatory to go through before going to heaven or an in-between state to “purge” your sins. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The following conclusion from McClintock and Strong, Vol. 4, P.622; bear evidence of the fact that the doctrine of purgatory is neither scriptural nor reasonable.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]* [/FONT][FONT=&quot]It destroys all motives for man living a penitent life on earth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]* [/FONT][FONT=&quot]It ignores and defies the appointment of death (Eccles. 11:3; Rev. 22:11; Heb. 9:27)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]* [/FONT][FONT=&quot]It spans the great gulf which Christ declared to be fixed and impassable (Luke 16:26)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]* [/FONT][FONT=&quot]It gives a man a second chance[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]* [/FONT][FONT=&quot]It places within the hands of mere mortal man, calling themselves priests, the keys to[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Hades.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]* [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Catholic authorities admit they have perverted the Holy Scriptures in order to[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] manufacture purgatory.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]* [/FONT][FONT=&quot]It forms no part of the teaching of Christ, His apostles, or any inspired writer of the New Testament.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[benidict]

[FONT=&quot]The Roman Catholic Church teaches that those who are perfect at death are admitted to heaven. Those who are not perfectly cleansed and are still tainted with the guilt of venial sins, however, do not go to heaven but rather go to purgatory where they allegedly go through a process of cleansing. (Latin "purgare" - to cleanse).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The American Heritage Dictionary[/FONT][FONT=&quot] says this about Purgatory:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“A state in which the soul of those who have died in grace must expiate their sins. A place of expiation, suffering, or remorse.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Roman Catholics say that purgatory is a place for the dead who were neither very bad nor very good. Those who die with unforgiven mortal (serious) sin go to hell, while those who live as “saints” got to heaven. Most Catholics supposedly end up in purgatory. Such souls are oppressed with a sense of deprivation and suffer certain pain. How long they stay in purgatory - and how much suffering they undergo while there - depends upon their particular state of sin. Their belief is that temporary suffering in purgatory’s fires purges souls of guilt for their venial (not so serious) sins.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Roman Catholics also teach that a person's time in purgatory may be shortened, and his pains alleviated, by the faithful prayers, alms, fasting, indulgences, and masses conducted on their behalf of those still alive. The sacrifice of the Mass is viewed as especially important in this regard. Catholics also believe that by doing good deeds can reduce the amount of suffering that one does in purgatory. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Catholics find support for this doctrine in the apocryphal book 2 Maccabees 12:42-45.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Purgatory will end with the Last Judgment at the close of the world.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Roman Catholic dogmas of purgatory were defined at the councils of Lyon (1274) and Ferrara-Florence (1438-1445) and reaffirmed at the Council of Trent (1545-1563).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]These dogmas were rejected by Luther (95 thesis), Calvin, and other leaders of the Reformation, who asserted that Christians freed from sin through faith in Jesus Christ go directly to heaven.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Purgatory is a false doctrine and is easy to prove from the Scriptures. When Jesus died on the cross, He said: "It is finished.."(John 19:30). Jesus completed the work of redemption at the cross. In His high priestly prayer to the Father, Jesus said:." I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do."(John 17:4). Hebrews 10:14 emphatically declares, "By one sacrifice he has made perfect for ever those who are being made holy." Those who believe in Christ are "made perfect" forever; no further "purging" is necessary. 1 John 1:7 says, " The blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Roman 8:1 says, " Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Jesus took care of “purging” our sins by His work of salvation at the cross.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hebrews 1:3 affirms, "After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven." Jesus provided full purification for our sins.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Scriptures knows of no in-between place for those who are neither very evil nor very good. According to the Word of God, there is no second chance after death; rather, at death a person’s destiny is sealed for torment or bliss – eternally. Listen to what the writer of the Hebrew Letter says:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hebrews 9:27 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In the Gospel of Matthew, the writer tells us that not many will find the straight path that will lead to eternal life. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 7:13-14 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. [14] But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life and only a few find it.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God’s Word speaks of only 2 alternatives that occur at death or when Jesus comes: a person is lost or saved; a person goes to torment or rest. There is no purgatory to go through before going to heaven or an in-between state to “purge” your sins. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The following conclusion from McClintock and Strong, Vol. 4, P.622; bear evidence of the fact that the doctrine of purgatory is neither scriptural nor reasonable.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]* [/FONT][FONT=&quot]It destroys all motives for man living a penitent life on earth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]* [/FONT][FONT=&quot]It ignores and defies the appointment of death (Eccles. 11:3; Rev. 22:11; Heb. 9:27)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]* [/FONT][FONT=&quot]It spans the great gulf which Christ declared to be fixed and impassable (Luke 16:26)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]* [/FONT][FONT=&quot]It gives a man a second chance[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]* [/FONT][FONT=&quot]It places within the hands of mere mortal man, calling themselves priests, the keys to[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hades.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]* [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Catholic authorities admit they have perverted the Holy Scriptures in order to[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]manufacture purgatory.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]* [/FONT][FONT=&quot]It forms no part of the teaching of Christ, His apostles, or any inspired writer of the New Testament.[/FONT]

Ok. here are 2 questions I can pose to you then my friend. Is every thing that Christ taught found in the scriptures? Also, Which New testament did the Apostles use?

 

[Mr.SteveSir]

Ok. here are 2 questions I can pose to you then my friend. Is every thing that Christ taught found in the scriptures? Also, Which New testament did the Apostles use?

I'm sure Jesus taught some young cousins, neices and nephews to strap their sandals; taught some apprentices to work with wood; taught some friends or relatives how to do traditional dances or sing some songs. The question is do you think all teachings regardind salvation were recorded? The idea that there are teachings of Christ with eternal ramifications that God was unable to have included in His Scriptures makes God look weak.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Would this topic be better places in GT. It seems like an abuse of the Congregational forums- giving you a chance to speak against another group and even misrepresent what they believe.

 

[Sarcalogos Deus]

Would this topic be better places in GT. It seems like an abuse of the Congregational forums- giving you a chance to speak against another group and even misrepresent what they believe.

I agree, especially in light of the 6th bullet point near the bottom.

 

[donovan1979]

Purgatory is not biblical. Jesus died for our sins, His blood washes us clean from all our sins. The Bible is very clear on that. Pergutory teaches that we have still got sins and we need to purge, i know this because I was a catholic for a long time. I know the doctrine. It in fact no only goes against scripture but it is very dangerous. When we die if we do not die in Christ and let Jesus by His blood blot out our sins there are no second chances at all.

No purgatory

 

[benidict]

I'm sure Jesus taught some young cousins, neices and nephews to strap their sandals; taught some apprentices to work with wood; taught some friends or relatives how to do traditional dances or sing some songs. The question is do you think all teachings regardind salvation were recorded? The idea that there are teachings of Christ with eternal ramifications that God was unable to have included in His Scriptures makes God look weak.

Apparently my friend, you are ignorant of the writings of the Church Fathers. Are you aware, that the bible as you have it, did not come into being, until the Nicene council? How do we know that abortion is wrong? Is this topic addressed in the Bible? No. In fact, the the only reference we see to abortion, is God giving the Levitical Priesthood the formula to induce one, if in fact a woman had been unfaithful to her spouse. So how can we judge that Abortion is a sin? Are you familiar with a writing known as the Didache? Christ did not leave us with a book, but a Church. I suggest you read this writing, that was written by a Desciple of one of the apostles. You will also find references to Apostolic succession which was given by the apostles, knowing that the coming of Christ was far off. They gave us a means to keep the Church ONE and intact until his second coming. Since there was NO New Testament, until the council of Nicea, then WHO was it who kept the teachings of Christ, and disseminated them among the faithful. It was the Church. As the letter to Timothy states, it is the CHURCH that is the bulwark of Truth. Not a book. If you do not believe in this Church, then you cannot believe in the bible. Because it is on Her authority, given by Christ, that the books that are in the Bible were included. We can dicuss circumcision if you wish to prove Apostolic authority. They had NO biblical backing for their claim that circumcision was done away with.(none in writing anyway...) Just an example. And incidentally, there is nowhere where Christ stated circumcision of the flesh was done away with. Hmmm. Interesting....
Peace

 

[benidict]

Purgatory is not biblical. Jesus died for our sins, His blood washes us clean from all our sins. The Bible is very clear on that. Pergutory teaches that we have still got sins and we need to purge, i know this because I was a catholic for a long time. I know the doctrine. It in fact no only goes against scripture but it is very dangerous. When we die if we do not die in Christ and let Jesus by His blood blot out our sins there are no second chances at all.

No purgatory

Purgatory is a Actually a Jewish teaching that the Church retained. It was around at the time of Christ, and He never disputed it. Josephus writes about it in his writings. Look in the appendixes of his writings and you will find it. It is also found in various midRashes, and the Talmud. Happy researching. The Truth Shall Set You Free.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Purgatory is a Actually a Jewish teaching that the Church retained. It was around at the time of Christ, and He never disputed it. Josephus writes about it in his writings. Look in the appendixes of his writings and you will find it. It is also found in various midRashes, and the Talmud. Happy researching. The Truth Shall Set You Free.

In all of my time here at CF I have not yet been able to get any Catholic poster to tell me the truth concerning Purgatory. Opinions from Catholics range from the very traditional view of Purgatory as a place of torture and suffering to pay for the temporal sins of the Catholic to a moment of refreshment such as taking a pleasant shower prior to dressing for dinner.

Will you please tell me exactly what Purgatory is?

Thank you.

 

[benidict]

In all of my time here at CF I have not yet been able to get any Catholic poster to tell me the truth concerning Purgatory. Opinions from Catholics range from the very traditional view of Purgatory as a place of torture and suffering to pay for the temporal sins of the Catholic to a moment of refreshment such as taking a pleasant shower prior to dressing for dinner.

Will you please tell me exactly what Purgatory is?

Thank you.

No problem. It is a place for those who died in the friendship of God, who have yet to rectify sins, that were commited in this life. suppose you wronged some one, in your life, and cannot attone for this wrong in this life. This still needs to be addressed. Suppose there are sins you could not over come in life. These need to be addressed. Purgatory is a place of Cleansing. Is it fire? Is it pain free? No its not pain free, because its like an antechamber to the Throne room of Christ, who you can see face to face. Its painful, because you are so close to the Lord, but still not in perfect communion with him. Personally, I believe that the "Fires" of purgatory, are our longing to be in full communion. We read and go thru "Firey" trials here on earth, correct? Some are figurative, some are quite literal. Those who are damned, are already in the flames of eternal seperation from God. And that is eternal. Real fire? I dont know. I dont think you can authoritively state, that the fires of Hell are real fire. What we do know is, that the souls in purgatory will get out. Either in this time, or at the time of Christ 2nd coming. Also, I will ask you a question. Why since this was a common belief among the Jews at the time Christ walked the earth, did he NOT correct their erroneous belief. He certainly correct the Sadducees on their misunderstanding of the world to come, and the interim state. Did he not? Hope this helps. Oh, and as a side note. Has anyone ever been able to give you an exact picture of heaven? Not likely. Yet you believe it. Hmmm?

 

[GA777]

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that those who are perfect at death are admitted to heaven. Those who are not perfectly cleansed and are still tainted with the guilt of venial sins, however, do not go to heaven but rather go to purgatory where they allegedly go through a process of cleansing. (Latin "purgare" - to cleanse).
The American Heritage Dictionary says this about Purgatory:
“A state in which the soul of those who have died in grace must expiate their sins. A place of expiation, suffering, or remorse.”

Roman Catholics say that purgatory is a place for the dead who were neither very bad nor very good. Those who die with unforgiven mortal (serious) sin go to hell, while those who live as “saints” got to heaven. Most Catholics supposedly end up in purgatory. Such souls are oppressed with a sense of deprivation and suffer certain pain. How long they stay in purgatory - and how much suffering they undergo while there - depends upon their particular state of sin. Their belief is that temporary suffering in purgatory’s fires purges souls of guilt for their venial (not so serious) sins.
Roman Catholics also teach that a person's time in purgatory may be shortened, and his pains alleviated, by the faithful prayers, alms, fasting, indulgences, and masses conducted on their behalf of those still alive. The sacrifice of the Mass is viewed as especially important in this regard. Catholics also believe that by doing good deeds can reduce the amount of suffering that one does in purgatory.

Right


It's nowhere said in the bible that there is no purgatory.

Padre Pio said: “More souls of the dead from Purgatory than of the living climb this mountain"

No matter what anyone believes, purgatory will not cease to exist.But it's not important, as the eternity would be in heaven, and only some time will be spent there.

 

[in1]

"Has anyone ever been able to give you an exact picture of heaven? Not likely. Yet you believe it. Hmmm? "

Jesus said the kingdom of God is within, as well as heaven was where he was at when talking to Nicodemus ....... And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

I would ask where is Christ now? and where are you now?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Right


It's nowhere said in the bible that there is no purgatory.

Padre Pio said: “More souls of the dead from Purgatory than of the living climb this mountain"

No matter what anyone believes, purgatory will not cease to exist.But it's not important, as the eternity would be in heaven, and only some time will be spent there.

It's nowhere said in the bible that there is no Limbo, or Nirvana, or Camelot. Does that mean that silence on them is affirmation of their existence? I think not.

 

[in1]

Jesus said the kingdom of God does not come with observation, it is within. He told Nicodemus that He was presently in heaven. He told those around Him that The Father was in Him and He was in the Father. Now we are in Him Who is in the Father and the Father who is in Christ is in us.

The questions I would ask would be, Where are you? who told you? and did you eat?

 

[benidict]

It's nowhere said in the bible that there is no Limbo, or Nirvana, or Camelot. Does that mean that silence on them is affirmation of their existence? I think not.

But we find in the book of Maccabees, that they prayed for the dead and offered sacrifices on the Deads behalf. This was a Jewish custom at the time, and also we read references in the Talmud about such a place. Weather you believe the book of Maccabees to be Cannonical or not, is irrelivant. The fact is, these were Jewish teachings that Christ was familiar with, and did not dispute.

 

[in1]

These sacrifices in Maccabees, were they animal sacrifice's for sin, it's clear that there is no other sacrifice that meets Gods standard than the Lamb He provided for Himself.

 

[IndieVisible]

Tho I am Orthodox, being independent, I do lean closer to Catholics explanation of purgatory, realizing it could be some thing totally different then any of us, the Catholics, Orthodox, and Jews considered.

It's also not scriptural the dead babies go to heaven, is there any one here that doubts that?

 

[benidict]

Tho I am Orthodox, being independent, I do lean closer to Catholics explanation of purgatory, realizing it could be some thing totally different then any of us, the Catholics, Orthodox, and Jews considered.

It's also not scriptural the dead babies go to heaven, is there any one here that doubts that?

I agree. Also, the term Trinity is not biblical, yet I believe it. Sunday worship? Not scriptural. But again, I believe that is the most important day of worship for Christians. And If im not mistaken, the Orthodox, have services every day of the week as do we, your Catholic Brethern. Correct? That is the biblical model. I would very much like to study more into the Orthodox Church. We both can trace our roots back to the time of the Apostles and Christ. I pray the rift between us, is closed in my lifetime and yours.

 

[benidict]

These sacrifices in Maccabees, were they animal sacrifice's for sin, it's clear that there is no other sacrifice that meets Gods standard than the Lamb He provided for Himself.

I assume they would have been. Remember though, that the apostles taught that there are varying degrees of sin. there are sins that are forgiven in this world, and some in the next. There is one, that cannot be forgiven in this world, or the next. Purgatory is neccessary, because along with repentance comes a desire to right the wrong you have done to someone. What if you cannot do that? There is still a price to be paid. The desire is there, but the way to achieve it is blocked. Unless there is a way after death to attone for these things. We cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. Only those who are spotless are allowed in. Only Saints.

 

[in1]

Varying degrees of sin are a perception, a product of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. This is the same perception that drove them from the garden. The knowledge of God makes us the temple, but the mind of, the mind that is Christ, the heavenly city, in here there is no temple. Purgatory as well is merely a perception.
The tree of knowledge of is the perception of the Law of the Spirit of Life which turns the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man. This is nakedness dove’s dung and the knowledge merchandise. This nakedness tears down barns just to make them bigger, twice the child of the devil. Getting caught between heaven and earth, good and evil is like grabbing an angry dog by the ears.