Purgatory??

[lmd0137]

I have come across the concept of purgatory several times, but I'm not quite sure what it actually is, or if there is any evidence of purgatory. Some clarification please??

 

[Mr Dave]

I have come across the concept of purgatory several times, but I'm not quite sure what it actually is, or if there is any evidence of purgatory. Some clarification please??

It is a much more Roman Catholic than Protestant thing. The glossary of the Roman Catholic Church says

"Purgatory: A state of final purification after death and before entrance to heaven for those who died in God's friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven."

and the actual entry (in part) says

Sections 1030-1031 of The RC Catechism

"All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to acheieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven...
He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. (cf. Matt 12:31) From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come"


This thread is a debate about Purgatory, http://www.christianforums.com/t7490145/

and also with regards to a place of Purgation (purification) but not necessarily purgatory, see also this thread http://www.christianforums.com/t7491713/

Hope that helps as a starter.

 

[salida]

Its not mentioned in the bible-its from the catholics.

 

[Mr Dave]

On here, as has already been expressed, will be a lot to do with the Roman Catholic understanding. Few Protestant denominations specifically mention it (in favour or against) but these are the exceptions Purgatory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The idea of an 'in limbo' state of death comes from the book of 2 Maccabees, in which there is mention of praying for the dead.

2 Maccabees 12:42-12:44

"42and they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as the result of the sin of those who had fallen. 43He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin-offering. In doing this he acted very well and honourably, taking account of the resurrection. 44For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead."

If you've not come across 2 Maccabees before, a brief history lesson. This is one of the books called deutero-canonical or apocryphal. It appeared in the Greek version of the 'Old Testament' called the LXX/Septuagint that was around an in use at the time of Christ. It is accepted as scripture by the Roman Catholic Church. Traditional Protestant churches have a different view; Both Luther's Bible and the 1611 King James Version for the Church of England included these books in a separate section called the Apocrypha. The Church of England states that these books shall be read for life and instruction but not for establishing any doctrine (belief in Purgatory is a doctrine, and as such the CofE says that it has no warranty in scripture and is repugnant to the Word of God). As the Methodist Churches descended from Anglicanism, on the whole methodism has a similar view to that of the Church of England. Evangelical Protestantism rejects the use of these books completely.

 

[Harry3142]

The RCC built their 'purgatory theology' on a passage in which St. Paul told Christians that there would be a judgement, not of them, but of their works. Here is that passage:

By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. (I Corinthians 3:10-15,NIV)

Many protestant denominations agree that there will be a 'Christians Judgement', in which what we have done on behalf of the furtherance of the kingdom of God will be tested. But the test will consist of how diligently we promoted the teaching that there is only one foundation, namely, Jesus Christ himself. Even though we don't agree with the RCC's teaching concerning purgatory, we do agree that there will be an accounting which we as Christians will have to give.

 

[a_ntv]

I have come across the concept of purgatory several times, but I'm not quite sure what it actually is, or if there is any evidence of purgatory. Some clarification please??

Consider when you die. Will you fully ready to see Christ face to face in all His brightness? Or you will need some sort of purification to dare to gaze at Him?

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. This process of sanctification so well described by St Paul starts with our salvation and goes on till we will be fully changed in His image. If we cannot conclude it on this earth, we shall conclude it before the everlasting Paradise.

 

[ebia]

I have come across the concept of purgatory several times, but I'm not quite sure what it actually is, or if there is any evidence of purgatory. Some clarification please??

Essentially purgatory is our final refining/purification when we come into the presence of God. Like a lot of Catholic (and Protestant) ideas its accumulated a lot of unhelpful connotations over the years but the core idea is simply that there is a final cleansing we need to go through that will burn away all remaining sinfulness, however you want to express that. It's worth reading the current Pope's encyclical (Spe Salvi) on the hope of salvation, specifically paragraph 47 rather than getting bogged down in older, less helpful and more divisive, expressions of the doctine.

There's a lot of misunderstanding about purgatory in both Catholic and Protestant circles. Don't believe everything you read in either - even when church documents are quoted it can be misleading.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

All this doctrine teaches is that Jesus's death on the cross does not fully atone for all your sins and somehow after death you need to pay for some of your sins and then be fit for the kingdom. However the bible says that when a man dies he goes to the grave and he knows nothing. When Jesus comes again the dead in Christ are resurrected. No wonder Paul had so much hope in the resurrection of the dead. Paul said that if Jesus was not raised from the dead then our hope would be in vain. It is by his resurrection that we can be finally resurrected. Why would we need to be resurrected if we could spend a little time in purgatory, pay for our remaining sins and go to heaven where we ultimately want to be.

 

[a_ntv]

All this doctrine teaches is that Jesus's death on the cross does not fully atone for all your sins and somehow after death you need to pay for some of your sins and then be fit for the kingdom.

No, you are wrong.
As most Protestants, you confuse the idea of salvation with the one of sanctification.
Salvation is the beginning of the way to became "Christ-like".

We are saved because of Jesus's death. But Jesus did not only died. He also resurrected, thus we, after our salvation, can became glorious as He is: this is a long process of charity and prayer, that can go on even after our death.

 

[ebia]

All this doctrine teaches is that Jesus's death on the cross does not fully atone for all your sins and somehow after death you need to pay for some of your sins and then be fit for the kingdom. However the bible says that when a man dies he goes to the grave and he knows nothing. When Jesus comes again the dead in Christ are resurrected. No wonder Paul had so much hope in the resurrection of the dead. Paul said that if Jesus was not raised from the dead then our hope would be in vain. It is by his resurrection that we can be finally resurrected. Why would we need to be resurrected if we could spend a little time in purgatory, pay for our remaining sins and go to heaven where we ultimately want to be.

If you think purgatory can be a replacement for resurrection you haven't understood what one or both of those is about.

 

[Quasicentennial]

New International Version
The Dead Are Judged

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

In verse 13, When people are raised from the dead from Earth and from hell, I believe God will give them a chance to love God knowing that he really exists .:*:. If certain individuals refuse to love and accept God and Jesus as their saviours then God would send them to the lake of fire. Homosexual Christians for example should be saved if they accepted Christ and were healed .:*:. I also believe there is no homosexuality and heterosexuality in heaven as Christian couples become transformed as adult brothers and sisters like Adam and Eve .:*:. No sexual intercourse would exist, only Christ's eternal spiritual pleasure .:*:.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

No, you are wrong.
As most Protestants, you confuse the idea of salvation with the one of sanctification.
Salvation is the beginning of the way to became "Christ-like".

We are saved because of Jesus's death. But Jesus did not only died. He also resurrected, thus we, after our salvation, can became glorious as He is: this is a long process of charity and prayer, that can go on even after our death.

And there is no scripture to support that.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

If you think purgatory can be a replacement for resurrection you haven't understood what one or both of those is about.

Not saying it is a replacement. Just that having both of them makes no sense really. One is scriptural while the other is not.

 

[ebia]

Not saying it is a replacement. Just that having both of them makes no sense really.

Only if you haven't understood both and how the interconnect.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Only if you haven't understood both and how the interconnect.

Well when one is totally unscriptural why bother to understand it. The thing about Purgatory is that it was a doctrine invented by man and then afterward people try to prove it from the bible by using the vision of the rich man and Lazarus. Even in that vision, where does it say that one needs to pay off some sins before they can get to heaven? That is absolutely nowhere in the bible. If Jesus atones for your sins then you don't have to pay for any of them. If you do not accept his sacrifice then you have to pay for all of them.

 

[ebia]

Well when one is totally unscriptural why bother to understand it.

If you haven't understood it how would you know if it's unscriptural or not?

 

[PROPHECYKID]

If you haven't understood it how would you know if it's unscriptural or not?

Because I know about it enough to know it is not scriptural. My mom was a catholic. But why don't you prove me wrong. She me from the bible where it teaches that after death some will have to pay for excess sins and then go to heaven. And while I am asking you to do this why don't you tell me about Limbo? I heard something about another place called Limbo. Is this one another unscriptural place?

 

[ebia]

Because I know about it enough to know it is not scriptural. My mom was a catholic.

Most Catholics have a distorted picture of what purgatory is about.

But why don't you prove me wrong. She me from the bible where it teaches that after death some will have to pay for excess sins and then go to heaven. And while I am asking you to do this why don't you tell me about Limbo? I heard something about another place called Limbo. Is this one another unscriptural place?

The idea of limbo has been dropped, and purgatory isn't a place. It's our ultimate encounter with Jesus Christ (see Spe Salvi).

If you want to continue the discussion I suggest we take it somew

 

[PROPHECYKID]

The idea of limbo has been dropped, and purgatory isn't a place. It's our ultimate encounter with Jesus Christ

hmm...interesting. Shed some light on that if you don't mind.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I have come across the concept of purgatory several times, but I'm not quite sure what it actually is, or if there is any evidence of purgatory. Some clarification please??

Subscribing

http://www.christianforums.com/t7525779/
Purgatory, if it exists how long do you guys have to stay there?