Purgatory?

[onlyTruth]

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I will attempt to respond to it in like manner.

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I can agree that there is a form of mental suffering and anguish in the loss of things. Thus, one can suffer in that manner when he sees all his precious works that he so valued in life being destroyed. However, it is not that he himself is being destroyed or burned up, but his worthless works. In fact, Paul makes it clear that the destruction is limited to only those works and that the believer himself will be saved through the fire. Imagine, if you will, the case of Daniel and his three companions when they were thrown into the fiery furnace (Daniel 3). They were entirely unaffected by the fire and walked out unscathed and without even the smell of smoke upon them. They did not suffer, although all else in the furnace was entirely consumed in the fire.

Of course you can interpret it that way. That doesn't mean that is the way it is meant to be interpreted. I understand that one can mentally suffer from losing something - but that is not what this passage is about.

I am impressed (not) that you know far mare than the esteemed translators and magisterium of the Catholic church which translated and approved the rendering which gives the clear meaning of a contrast rather than a similarity here. I suggest you take up the issue with them rather than myself as Catholic translations disagree with your personal interpretation. If one translated each word of the Bible as a word-for-word translation divorced from any context, then one would have a complete mishmash of English words which would be generally incomprehensible to anyone. The construction of a sentence establishes the context for a correct translation of its component words.

I am not stating anything that the Catholic Church does not agree with. The interpretation i gave makes perfect sense when read in context. I'm sure you would agree that there are many different ways to say the same thing. The Catholic Church chose to use certain words to explain what the writers meant to say. All I am showing you is where those words came from. If you see where they come from you might understand what the passage means.

It would best avoid quoting the ECF's as it can be a very slippery slope. You can usually find some ECF to support a controversial doctrine as well as those who don't.

The bottom line with your statement is that you have chosen to believe your church's teaching concerning this doctrine despite the fact that Augistine and all the other ECF's did not address this particular passage nor did they use it to support their belief in Purgatory. Their argumentation was purely theological.

All other ECF's did not address this passage??? Please read "Homily 9 on First Corinthians" by Chrysostom. In addition, the ECF's didn't need to convince anyone of this doctrine because there was no question about it.

It is a pity that you have bothered yourself in such a way when all your church requires of you is to accept its doctrine with complete docility and without question. What would ever happen if in your examination you came up with an interpretation at variance with your church's interpretation?

The Church does not require to accept doctrine with complete docility and without question. They encourage us to study scripture, question and be able to defend our faith. Show me some proof that our Church requires us to be mere robots as you are suggesting. I hope that I am humble enough to admit when I am wrong. And since I believe Jesus established the Church and left the authority on earth to our Church leaders -if i have a problem with a doctrine in the Church I will study it as much as I can. But since i know i am no expert I will submit to the teaching of the Church. After all, the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and it cannot be wrong and has been around for 2000 years (I have only been around for 28 years). Best of all everything that the Church teaching makes perfect sense and I have been able to satisfy all my questions thus far.

I am glad Jesus left the authority to the Church - makes it much easier to know what Jesus asks of us. If i didn't have the authority of the Church I would struggle with knowing if my interpretation is right or wrong. After all, protestants disagree on so many different doctrines that it would be impossible to know what truth is without the authority.

Would you care to put this to the test? I am willing to run this by at least ten non-Christians if you are willing to do the same. We can compare results after we receive our responses. When would you like to do it?

Sure - I will ask some friends. I don't know if i have time for 10 but i will ask some.

I will have them read it and then ask them if they think it means:
a. If a mans work was burned he will suffer pain or anguish over the loss of his work; but the man will still be saved because the fire burned his work
b. If a mans work was burned he will suffer pain or anguish; but the man will still be saved, but will only be saved by way of fire

Let me know if this works with you.

P.S. if "a" is true what does it mean??? it doesn't make any sense.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Of course you can interpret it that way. That doesn't mean that is the way it is meant to be interpreted. I understand that one can mentally suffer from losing something - but that is not what this passage is about.

Question: And you know this how? Answer: Because my church has interpreted it for me in this way.

I am not stating anything that the Catholic Church does not agree with. The interpretation i gave makes perfect sense when read in context. I'm sure you would agree that there are many different ways to say the same thing. The Catholic Church chose to use certain words to explain what the writers meant to say. All I am showing you is where those words came from. If you see where they come from you might understand what the passage means.

I certainly do not believe that you are stating anything other than the Catholic interpretation of the passage. That interpretation, as a theological construct, does make sense within the theological premises applied to it. Without those premises the interpretation falls flat.

All other ECF's did not address this passage??? Please read "Homily 9 on First Corinthians" by Chrysostom. In addition, the ECF's didn't need to convince anyone of this doctrine because there was no question about it.

Even Augustine, whom you quoted, does not address this passage at all. I attempted to find Homily 9 on the internet, but failed. Although there are many other homilies by Chrysostom on the internet I could not find a link to that one. If you could provide a link I would be most grateful. The difficulty with your argument from silence is that it is the very same argument used by many other groups such as the Mormons who claim that their version of baptism for the dead was not addressed by the ECF's because there was no question about it.

The Church does not require to accept doctrine with complete docility and without question. They encourage us to study scripture, question and be able to defend our faith. Show me some proof that our Church requires us to be mere robots as you are suggesting. I hope that I am humble enough to admit when I am wrong. And since I believe Jesus established the Church and left the authority on earth to our Church leaders -if i have a problem with a doctrine in the Church I will study it as much as I can. But since i know i am no expert I will submit to the teaching of the Church. After all, the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and it cannot be wrong and has been around for 2000 years (I have only been around for 28 years). Best of all everything that the Church teaching makes perfect sense and I have been able to satisfy all my questions thus far.

Here is the relevant chapter from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You may wish to read it in your own copy to verify that I have not altered them in any way. Is there anything such as incomplete docility and can there be docility with questioning? I did not state that your church requires you to be a robot, but merely to accept its doctrines with complete docility and without question.

87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me", the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

My question still stands as to what would happen to you should you come up with an interpretation at odds with that of the Catholic Church.

I am glad Jesus left the authority to the Church - makes it much easier to know what Jesus asks of us. If i didn't have the authority of the Church I would struggle with knowing if my interpretation is right or wrong. After all, protestants disagree on so many different doctrines that it would be impossible to know what truth is without the authority.

Tell that to our freinds in the EOC and they will tell you that they are glad that Jesus left the authority to the Church as founded by the Apostles and not to a branch of the Church headquartered in Rome. This discussion has been ongoing since, at the very least, the Great Schism and I prefer not to derail the thread with it. However, if you like I think it would make an excellent topic for another thread.

Sure - I will ask some friends. I don't know if i have time for 10 but i will ask some.

I will have them read it and then ask them if they think it means:
a. If a mans work was burned he will suffer pain or anguish over the loss of his work; but the man will still be saved because the fire burned his work
b. If a mans work was burned he will suffer pain or anguish; but the man will still be saved, but will only be saved by way of fire

Let me know if this works with you.

P.S. if "a" is true what does it mean??? it doesn't make any sense.

I will simply present the passage to a few people (non-Christians) that I know and ask them what it means to them, leaving it cmpletely open to them, rather than giving them only two possible interpretations. If you wish to limit their choice to those two possibilities I think the results may be somewhat skewed, but it will prove helpful, nevertheless.

Thank you.

 

[onlyTruth]

Question: And you know this how? Answer: Because my church has interpreted it for me in this way.

So I guess I should go to you for interpretation help rather than the Church that was founded by Jesus Christ.

I certainly do not believe that you are stating anything other than the Catholic interpretation of the passage. That interpretation, as a theological construct, does make sense within the theological premises applied to it. Without those premises the interpretation falls flat.

And where does that premise come from? Answer is that it comes from the ECF's and Apostles.

Even Augustine, whom you quoted, does not address this passage at all. I attempted to find Homily 9 on the internet, but failed. Although there are many other homilies by Chrysostom on the internet I could not find a link to that one. If you could provide a link I would be most grateful. The difficulty with your argument from silence is that it is the very same argument used by many other groups such as the Mormons who claim that their version of baptism for the dead was not addressed by the ECF's because there was no question about it.

i can't post links yet. put you can find it on newadvent .org

All i am saying is that you can't disprove something if there is nothing that directly denies it. In this case purgatory.

Here is the relevant chapter from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You may wish to read it in your own copy to verify that I have not altered them in any way. Is there anything such as incomplete docility and can there be docility with questioning? I did not state that your church requires you to be a robot, but merely to accept its doctrines with complete docility and without question.

87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me", the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

If you are a Christian you believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. If you don't believe that then why call yourself a Christian. If you want to be a Catholic you have to believe in it's doctrines. Just like any organization in the world. Why call yourself something if you don't believe what it teaches. You're only fooling yourself.

My question still stands as to what would happen to you should you come up with an interpretation at odds with that of the Catholic Church.

I already answered this question in my last post. Refer to that post.

Tell that to our freinds in the EOC and they will tell you that they are glad that Jesus left the authority to the Church as founded by the Apostles and not to a branch of the Church headquartered in Rome. This discussion has been ongoing since, at the very least, the Great Schism and I prefer not to derail the thread with it. However, if you like I think it would make an excellent topic for another thread.

Who did Jesus leave the keys of Heaven too? Answer - Peter. Where did Peter preside as Bishop? Answer - Rome.

I will simply present the passage to a few people (non-Christians) that I know and ask them what it means to them, leaving it cmpletely open to them, rather than giving them only two possible interpretations. If you wish to limit their choice to those two possibilities I think the results may be somewhat skewed, but it will prove helpful, nevertheless.

The more I think about it, the more ridiculous this experiment sounds. It may be interesting, but will serve no use whatsoever. What you're asking is for an athiest or non-Christian to do our interpretation for us. That is absolutely ridiculous. How can they possibly give a proper interpretation without any background whatsoever. I might try a few but only for amusement. What was i thinking.

 

[Spartan Warrior]

The Bible was written in the Greek and the Greek word for “fire” is “pur”” a derivative of the Latin word “pyra”(pure) and the English word “”pyre” the place of burning corpses all coming from also coming from the same root as “pyr, pur, meaning fire. All our English words having to do with pure are related to the Greek word “pur” which indicate clearly that which is pure has been cleansed by fire. Consider “PURe, PURity, PURification, PURitan, and of course the Catholic PURatory. (I wonder where they got that word?)

It is not a matter of if you go thought the fire, it is a matter of when.


Isaiah 43:2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.


Fire in scripture is symbolic of two things judgment and cleansing, But God is not schizophrenic in His nature, God is a balance God and his judgments are just not unjust as many try to portray God’s nature to be.

Even though the judgments of God will be against the evil works that man has done. 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 says, "Every man's work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

On the day of Pentecost what did believers get? Cloven tongues of fire?


Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


Those who do not believe Christians will go thought God’s fire please explain the above.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Bible was written in the Greek and the Greek word for “fire” is “pur”” a derivative of the Latin word “pyra”(pure) and the English word “”pyre” the place of burning corpses all coming from also coming from the same root as “pyr, pur, meaning fire. All our English words having to do with pure are related to the Greek word “pur” which indicate clearly that which is pure has been cleansed by fire. Consider “PURe, PURity, PURification, PURitan, and of course the Catholic PURatory. (I wonder where they got that word?)

It is not a matter of if you go thought the fire, it is a matter of when.


Isaiah 43:2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.


Fire in scripture is symbolic of two things judgment and cleansing, But God is not schizophrenic in His nature, God is a balance God and his judgments are just not unjust as many try to portray God’s nature to be.

Even though the judgments of God will be against the evil works that man has done. 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 says, "Every man's work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

On the day of Pentecost what did believers get? Cloven tongues of fire?


Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


Those who do not believe Christians will go thought God’s fire please explain the above.

Consider the following:

Mat 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Mat 3:12 "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Tell me now what the baptism of fire entails.

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut {it} and sealed {it} over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I {saw} the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
Rev 20:9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is {the book} of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one {of them} according to their deeds.
Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Please tell me where, in this chapter from Revelation, Christians will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone which burns forever and forever.